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[Patch 1.0.0.151: End of S2] General Discussion - Page 253

Forum Index > LoL General
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mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12704 Posts
November 29 2012 21:26 GMT
#5041
I was trying not to fall behind in levels/cs as the jungler and their top didn't roam but eventually took the two outer towers by 20 min in. I think it was a lost cause which I can accept but when you're trying to be the voice of reason for a team of friends I was curious what would have been the best choice to rally the team around. I coudn't really count on my mid to assist top either unfortunately. Probably just need to iron out more of the basics Thanks all for the input.
It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
Sandster
Profile Joined November 2006
United States4054 Posts
November 29 2012 21:31 GMT
#5042
But see, even if you stay even in levels/cs as a jungler by farming your jungle, you're not doing anything to help your team because you're *already losing*. Getting a successful gank, then shoving the lane into the turret is a significant part of a jungler's farm and levels these days.
mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12704 Posts
November 29 2012 21:35 GMT
#5043
Fair enough. I can't remember all the timings but the problem was every time I came top my laner was at 30% health or at the fountain, so I would hold lane but I was underleveled/underfarmed compared to the top and I would get chunked so that there wasn't much we could do. I spent most of my time top from minute 10 onwards while bot was getting ganked by amumu with oracles repeatedly. Like I said, probably already lost but I'd like to know since we'll likely be in that situation again
It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
November 29 2012 21:47 GMT
#5044
On November 30 2012 06:19 wei2coolman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2012 06:12 Sandster wrote:
On November 30 2012 06:09 obesechicken13 wrote:
On November 30 2012 05:44 Sandster wrote:
The higher level you go, the less often laners will straight up die 1v1 in lane. But at low(er) levels players don't know how much they can trade and tend to die, so lanes are extremely snowbally, and that can quickly get out of hand.

You need to know your team. If you realize your top lane is your weakest lane, either repeatedly gank (2-3 man gank top), pull lane swaps, or give up the turret while pushing dragon/turrets elsewhere on the map. The worst thing you can do, especially if you know he will make bad engages and die 1v1, is to hope he catches up on his own. You simply can't play it like a "normal" lane, i.e. if neither jungler goes top then top will be even on farm after 10 min.

At low elo, mids that roam/gank well like Diana/Eve/Ahri are absolutely disgusting. Also, snowballing top is very powerful because many top lanes are much more binary than other lanes, due to the long lane and prevalence of melee/gap closers.

In tournaments players don't seem to take very many risks so if Jax gets a kill pre 6, then the person he's playing against will end up with 2 levels less and 40-50 cs less but no kills will go to either side by the time laning ends. That's still a dramatic snowball.

If a player dies, they give up hope of coming back in lane.


In IPL just earlier today Jax got a kill in lane pre-6 against Rengar and was 10+cs ahead (Blaze's jax got a kill vs TD's rengar), and Rengar still won the lane. It's definitely possible to come back.

I think that's more so Rengar being broken as fuck, rather than a top lane coming back.
The only real way to win back top lane is. if the enemy toplane starts roaming with advantage, and you stay toplane farm up, and hopefully your team doesn't get raped by the roaming enemy toplaner.


Champs with sustain can mitigate getting snowballed against b/c the enemy can't use their advantage to shove you out of lane as easily.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
November 29 2012 22:47 GMT
#5045
I feel sad that I missed the entire 6 pages of conversation based on my offhand comment that LW isn't always the best 3rd DPS option on a Carry. Especially considering I was talking mostly about Kog (and to a lesser extent the Ezreal TF>BT>LW build, which is a timing window thing that some people do too blindly), and it created a massive Silver Bolts conversation.
Freeeeeeedom
thenexusp
Profile Joined May 2009
United States3721 Posts
November 29 2012 22:54 GMT
#5046
Speaking of AD carry builds, when do you guys start buying green elixirs? I used to only get them after full build but now I'm thinking you probably want to start getting them sooner, since they're so good for the cost. I get them when I have 5 complete items + a piece of the 6th, but maybe it'd be good to start chugging them even earlier? dunno
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-29 22:55:12
November 29 2012 22:55 GMT
#5047
On November 30 2012 07:47 cLutZ wrote:
I feel sad that I missed the entire 6 pages of conversation based on my offhand comment that LW isn't always the best 3rd DPS option on a Carry. Especially considering I was talking mostly about Kog (and to a lesser extent the Ezreal TF>BT>LW build, which is a timing window thing that some people do too blindly), and it created a massive Silver Bolts conversation.


Here's some math for you:

http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/a-different-view/gentleman-gustaf/21273-yelling-about-last-whisper

Note this article was made before they nerfed Corki's passive.
Remember Violet.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-29 23:10:38
November 29 2012 23:10 GMT
#5048
On November 30 2012 07:55 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2012 07:47 cLutZ wrote:
I feel sad that I missed the entire 6 pages of conversation based on my offhand comment that LW isn't always the best 3rd DPS option on a Carry. Especially considering I was talking mostly about Kog (and to a lesser extent the Ezreal TF>BT>LW build, which is a timing window thing that some people do too blindly), and it created a massive Silver Bolts conversation.


Here's some math for you:

http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/a-different-view/gentleman-gustaf/21273-yelling-about-last-whisper

Note this article was made before they nerfed Corki's passive.


Seems to agree with what I usually observe, but it really isn't talking about the TF first builds (which confuse me just as much). I don't know what people actually think about, but here is what I assume (as Corki/Ezreal) (lets assume they are playing an AD Carry with an arguably better lategame, like Kog, Vayne, Ashe or Trist). This is the sequence of events that confuses me:

1. I'll grab this phage then crush in lane! Doesn't Crush.
2. Ill finish TF, then we will win a big dragon fight. Win a dragon fight (or not) but doesn't snowball the game out of control.
3. Got the BF sword, if I make a Bloodthirster, we will win because of my midgame power! Midgame power not exploited.
4. Welp LW is like way cheaper than IE, better get it for this Baron! Baron doesn't happen for a few minutes.
5. TEAMFIGHT! Meanwhile you have TF/BT/LW vs. IE/PD/LW(or other). and the damage difference is highly observable (not only because of the lategame champ disparity), particularly on Ezreal.
Freeeeeeedom
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-29 23:16:44
November 29 2012 23:16 GMT
#5049
It also doesn't say anything about twitch, and doesn't really point out how Vayne can't always successfully autoattack the same person 3 times in a row, so if she has to alternate targets thanks to blinks or dashes, LW is generally better. Builds are usually situational, which is why people harping on what you have to build every game 100% of the time need to change their mentality.

On the bright side, all of this is gonna change when Riot dumps the 30 new items or whatever into the game and it's gonna rule.
Remember Violet.
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
November 29 2012 23:17 GMT
#5050
On November 30 2012 07:54 thenexusp wrote:
Speaking of AD carry builds, when do you guys start buying green elixirs? I used to only get them after full build but now I'm thinking you probably want to start getting them sooner, since they're so good for the cost. I get them when I have 5 complete items + a piece of the 6th, but maybe it'd be good to start chugging them even earlier? dunno



You can buy elixirs if you recalled and know that you will do a full 5v5 fight in the next few mins.
hi
Tooplark
Profile Joined October 2008
United States3977 Posts
November 29 2012 23:25 GMT
#5051
On November 30 2012 05:40 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2012 05:25 Sandster wrote:
On November 30 2012 05:18 PrinceXizor wrote:
On November 30 2012 05:14 Pooshlmer wrote:
I'm saying that people are deluding themselves into thinking that, for example, Lustboy is godlike just because he practices SO much harder than all the other supports.

....? that IS why he's so good. because he works so hard at it? he didn't just decide to play LoL one day and win a tournament. all genetics does for LoL it set you at a different starting level. your individual skill cap isn't the limiting factor in LoL.


I'd argue that genetics affects the *rate* as which you improve with practice. The best practice really really hard, and improves just a bit more than the really good people who practice really really hard.

But the overall level of LoL play isn't so high that is a limiting factor yet.

BW only really hit that point after like 7-8 years (at the point where you could say TBLS were dominating on the basis of their talent AND their practice). LoL isn't anywhere close to that yet.


why didn't my parents put more points into "StarCraft Aptitude" at character creation
WHAT POW'R ART THOU WHO FROM BELOW HAST MADE ME RISE UNWILLINGLY AND SLOW
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
November 29 2012 23:57 GMT
#5052
The invades going on at IPL5 make me wonder about S3 jungle: even if you invade and steal a buff, your level 2 jungler won't be able to kill his own second buff by himself, so won't it weaken invades (and "give a buff to X laner with TP") a lot by itself?
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
November 30 2012 00:00 GMT
#5053
I wonder a lot about S3 jungle too. What they said they want to achieve and what they are going to achieve I think are going to be completely different things
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-30 00:12:46
November 30 2012 00:06 GMT
#5054
On November 30 2012 08:57 Alaric wrote:
The invades going on at IPL5 make me wonder about S3 jungle: even if you invade and steal a buff, your level 2 jungler won't be able to kill his own second buff by himself, so won't it weaken invades (and "give a buff to X laner with TP") a lot by itself?


I think a solo champ would have a hard time taking a buff without Machete, and a 3 man invade is pretty weak.

edit:

On November 30 2012 09:00 Numy wrote:
I wonder a lot about S3 jungle too. What they said they want to achieve and what they are going to achieve I think are going to be completely different things


I agree. I think ganks are not really weaker aside from machete being weaker for ganks than boots. The jungle doesn't seem to provide the kind of carry gold I think it really needs to to avoid the "stealing farm" problem.
Freeeeeeedom
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
November 30 2012 00:13 GMT
#5055
On November 30 2012 08:57 Alaric wrote:
The invades going on at IPL5 make me wonder about S3 jungle: even if you invade and steal a buff, your level 2 jungler won't be able to kill his own second buff by himself, so won't it weaken invades (and "give a buff to X laner with TP") a lot by itself?


It depends a lot on the jungler, your rune/mastery setup, and what happens during the invasion. Keep in mind that without any help at your first buff camp you can expect to take 300-500 damage. If a jungler takes that much damage but walk away with a buff and level 2 they aren't really any worse off. It's only they come away empty handed that they have a problem, and even then I imagine good junglers will be able to cope.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 30 2012 00:23 GMT
#5056
On November 30 2012 08:57 Alaric wrote:
The invades going on at IPL5 make me wonder about S3 jungle: even if you invade and steal a buff, your level 2 jungler won't be able to kill his own second buff by himself, so won't it weaken invades (and "give a buff to X laner with TP") a lot by itself?

Your jungler can solo his 2nd buff if he doesn't have to smite the first one.
Moderator
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
November 30 2012 00:24 GMT
#5057
Sounds risky if you can't get the enemy team totally out of their buff area, or they can go for the smite if you don't use yours. May even be a win for them.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 30 2012 00:47 GMT
#5058
On November 30 2012 09:24 Alaric wrote:
Sounds risky if you can't get the enemy team totally out of their buff area, or they can go for the smite if you don't use yours. May even be a win for them.

Obviously if their jungler is there you smite it. Him wasting his time around your invade puts him behind anyway.
Moderator
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
November 30 2012 01:27 GMT
#5059
On November 30 2012 08:10 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2012 07:55 TwoToneTerran wrote:
On November 30 2012 07:47 cLutZ wrote:
I feel sad that I missed the entire 6 pages of conversation based on my offhand comment that LW isn't always the best 3rd DPS option on a Carry. Especially considering I was talking mostly about Kog (and to a lesser extent the Ezreal TF>BT>LW build, which is a timing window thing that some people do too blindly), and it created a massive Silver Bolts conversation.


Here's some math for you:

http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/a-different-view/gentleman-gustaf/21273-yelling-about-last-whisper

Note this article was made before they nerfed Corki's passive.


Seems to agree with what I usually observe, but it really isn't talking about the TF first builds (which confuse me just as much). I don't know what people actually think about, but here is what I assume (as Corki/Ezreal) (lets assume they are playing an AD Carry with an arguably better lategame, like Kog, Vayne, Ashe or Trist). This is the sequence of events that confuses me:

1. I'll grab this phage then crush in lane! Doesn't Crush.
2. Ill finish TF, then we will win a big dragon fight. Win a dragon fight (or not) but doesn't snowball the game out of control.
3. Got the BF sword, if I make a Bloodthirster, we will win because of my midgame power! Midgame power not exploited.
4. Welp LW is like way cheaper than IE, better get it for this Baron! Baron doesn't happen for a few minutes.
5. TEAMFIGHT! Meanwhile you have TF/BT/LW vs. IE/PD/LW(or other). and the damage difference is highly observable (not only because of the lategame champ disparity), particularly on Ezreal.



Yellowpete went Phage>IE vs. NA. Super Cool.
Freeeeeeedom
Serelitz
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands2895 Posts
November 30 2012 01:57 GMT
#5060
Any guess when Nami will be released? I really want to try her.
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