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On November 29 2012 22:49 OutlaW- wrote:
The fact that you lose DPS by tumbling 98% percent of the time doesn't matter - you need to reposition yourself so you have to use that Tumble anyway. A little trick I learned is that if you tumble into a wall, the animation is short enough where it won't cost you anything. Always do that when doing golems/dragon/baron/situationally in fights.
I've also found that dravens spinning axes will land at your feet twice before moving anywhere else if you put your back to a wall and just attack minions with it. VERY useful in the jungle as it makes every aa a spinning axe proc.
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Yes. I assume you know this but the axes go to where you click if you time it correctly.
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People get fixated a bit too much on how to get the best "theoretical damage" I feel. A lot of the time it's more about being able to actually deal damage then just having maximum potential damage.
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Thats a horrible way of saying it when your clicking on the target in order to have the axe effect even happen but yeah I know thats pretty much what I said.
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On November 29 2012 23:32 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2012 22:49 OutlaW- wrote:
The fact that you lose DPS by tumbling 98% percent of the time doesn't matter - you need to reposition yourself so you have to use that Tumble anyway. A little trick I learned is that if you tumble into a wall, the animation is short enough where it won't cost you anything. Always do that when doing golems/dragon/baron/situationally in fights. I've also found that dravens spinning axes will land at your feet twice before moving anywhere else if you put your back to a wall and just attack minions with it. VERY useful in the jungle as it makes every aa a spinning axe proc.
AFAIK, as long as you stand still, there's 2 options for your spinning Axe: it either lands to your feet or very close to your left or your right. Does that really change if you put your back to a wall?
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On November 29 2012 14:15 Vanka wrote:
So, I know people on here like to theorycraft, so here's something for you:
My friend who makes up the fifth man in a group was one of the ones who played lol the longest, but got bored of it so we don't usually have five for a team which sucks =(. Anyway, he has some attachment to old school styles of building champs so I was thinking if I could get a build for him that builds that way adapted to the new meta, he might find the game more fun.
We're not trying to be competitive at all, so something that's cool and works in solo queue would be excellent.
He liked Mordekaiser, but he never liked the ap mid morde build. He used to build old old school tank morde, with sunfire and fon, and that's the style he likes. Tank morde I'm not sure about how to do, but bruiser morde I'm thinking has more promise maybe. Maybe...triforce into randuins + tank items? His q scales on bonus ad, so maybe a bloodthrister into full tank build? Sunfire wits?
21 in defence seems obvious, then 9 in offense is probably the way to go. Standard armor yellows, mr blues, and depending on what I decide on ap or ad, some sort of penetration marks. Quints are preference I guess.
To be honest, bruiser itemization is probably what I have the worst grasp of, so any help will be appreciated. I'll take some suggestions, and see how they work out in practice. After that I'll write a guide or something for my friend.
EDIT: To clarify, I'm looking for a bruiser morde (ap or ad, leaning towards ad atm) build I can test out. Not one that'll make bruiser morde viable competitively, but something strong in solo queue.
You are correct. Triforce is boss on morde, and morde is boss with triforce. You really do need that hextech to mitigate the health costs of your abilities, so that should be your first buy. Once you have triforce/revolver you run around the map farming until you can afford some armor and mr to go with, then upgrade to a sextech funblade. Well, you do that once you have revolver. Triforce just means you do it even faster. Expect to be able to 1v2 or even 1v3 against anything that can't just kite you super hard (ashe). (This lasts until the level where everyone can farm as hard as morde, so be warned.)
For laning, you definitely want the minion defense masteries, and two of Flash/Ghost/Ignite/Exhaust/Cleanse. Ignite is a large boost to your killing power at all stages of the game and greatly increases your chances of getting a ghost in teamfights. Flash versus Ghost is a matter of preference; you should take at least one and maybe both. Ghost is often more useful for escaping ganks as morde, since if you have enough of a health/shield buffer then you can get away. Take your pick, though. Both is definitely better if you're worried about getting camped super hard and are sure you'll win your lane. Exhaust and Cleanse are just things to consider occasionally. I'm not actually sure if I'd ever take either over Flash/Ghost/Ignite, honestly. Surge is funny for trollz. Teleport is ok.
Masteries, as mentioned, should include minion defense. Take whatever fits your summoners, then whatever seems best. Morde can roll with pretty much any of the non-mana-dependent masteries. I do like 9/21/0 (8/21/1 with Flash) though. You can even go 0/29/1 and make it work, since the magic pen isn't super important to you.
If you're top, levels 1-5 are really scary and dangerous. If you're mid, levels 1-5 are still scarydanger but less so. Don't be afraid to push hard and recall, make sure you bring lots of wards, farm the enemy jungle as hard as you can, and get rollin'. Morde isn't a very effective roamer until you get your triforce and your speed goes through the roof.
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On November 29 2012 23:46 Tooplark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2012 14:15 Vanka wrote:
So, I know people on here like to theorycraft, so here's something for you:
My friend who makes up the fifth man in a group was one of the ones who played lol the longest, but got bored of it so we don't usually have five for a team which sucks =(. Anyway, he has some attachment to old school styles of building champs so I was thinking if I could get a build for him that builds that way adapted to the new meta, he might find the game more fun.
We're not trying to be competitive at all, so something that's cool and works in solo queue would be excellent.
He liked Mordekaiser, but he never liked the ap mid morde build. He used to build old old school tank morde, with sunfire and fon, and that's the style he likes. Tank morde I'm not sure about how to do, but bruiser morde I'm thinking has more promise maybe. Maybe...triforce into randuins + tank items? His q scales on bonus ad, so maybe a bloodthrister into full tank build? Sunfire wits?
21 in defence seems obvious, then 9 in offense is probably the way to go. Standard armor yellows, mr blues, and depending on what I decide on ap or ad, some sort of penetration marks. Quints are preference I guess.
To be honest, bruiser itemization is probably what I have the worst grasp of, so any help will be appreciated. I'll take some suggestions, and see how they work out in practice. After that I'll write a guide or something for my friend.
EDIT: To clarify, I'm looking for a bruiser morde (ap or ad, leaning towards ad atm) build I can test out. Not one that'll make bruiser morde viable competitively, but something strong in solo queue. You are correct. Triforce is boss on morde, and morde is boss with triforce. You really do need that hextech to mitigate the health costs of your abilities, so that should be your first buy. Once you have triforce/revolver you run around the map farming until you can afford some armor and mr to go with, then upgrade to a sextech funblade. Well, you do that once you have revolver. Triforce just means you do it even faster. Expect to be able to 1v2 or even 1v3 against anything that can't just kite you super hard (ashe). (This lasts until the level where everyone can farm as hard as morde, so be warned.) For laning, you definitely want the minion defense masteries, and two of Flash/Ghost/Ignite/Exhaust/Cleanse. Ignite is a large boost to your killing power at all stages of the game and greatly increases your chances of getting a ghost in teamfights. Flash versus Ghost is a matter of preference; you should take at least one and maybe both. Ghost is often more useful for escaping ganks as morde, since if you have enough of a health/shield buffer then you can get away. Take your pick, though. Both is definitely better if you're worried about getting camped super hard and are sure you'll win your lane. Exhaust and Cleanse are just things to consider occasionally. I'm not actually sure if I'd ever take either over Flash/Ghost/Ignite, honestly. Surge is funny for trollz. Teleport is ok. Masteries, as mentioned, should include minion defense. Take whatever fits your summoners, then whatever seems best. Morde can roll with pretty much any of the non-mana-dependent masteries. I do like 9/21/0 (8/21/1 with Flash) though. You can even go 0/29/1 and make it work, since the magic pen isn't super important to you. If you're top, levels 1-5 are really scary and dangerous. If you're mid, levels 1-5 are still scarydanger but less so. Don't be afraid to push hard and recall, make sure you bring lots of wards, farm the enemy jungle as hard as you can, and get rollin'. Morde isn't a very effective roamer until you get your triforce and your speed goes through the roof.
You could probably dig up the old Caller morde build on here.
True pioneer of bruiserkaiser
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On November 29 2012 23:08 Alaric wrote:
In absolute, yes. Relatively to her huge AD steroids and the multiplicative scaling of IE/PD/etc. builds? I remember seeing the thread, and it isn't that much.
Correct. I discussed the value of Vayne's Silver Bolts steroid compared to Tristana's Q in the Ahri general discussion thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294172¤tpage=201#4005
The gist of the discussion is that Tristana's Q is better except on tanky targets, for which the steroids are comparable. On very tanky targets, Vayne's Silver Bolts pull ahead.
On December 29 2011 13:23 TheYango wrote: + Show Spoiler +
Yes Vayne's W doesn't make up a huge portion of her damage. Neither does any other steroid in the game
The thing about Vayne's W is that if you math out the gold value in terms of equivalent real AD, it has significantly higher gold value than even activatable steroids, such as Tristana's W, even if you account for the unreliability of having to hit 3 consecutive times.
To illustrate:
Consider an average tanky target HP lategame with 3000 HP and 150 armor. From a practical standpoint, this 150 armor is only actually worth about 70 armor, after ArPen marks and LW/10% ArPen mastery. This is a 41% damage reduction, which means that true damage is worth 70% more than plain AD.
The 8% max HP component of Vayne's W does 240 true damage to that 3k HP dude. Coupled with the 60 base damage, this is 300 damage, or 100 true damage per attack, which is worth the equivalent of 170 normal AD. 170
normal AD is worth 5610 gold (based on BF Sword which is 1650 gold for 50 AD), which is worth more than TWICE as much as the gold value of Tristana's Q (based on Recurve Bow, which is 40% aspd for 1050 gold). Put a different way, even if you only get to proc Vayne's W once every 7 attacks, it's still worth more gold in steroid value than Tristana's Q, and Tristana's Q isn't always on.
It's probably not on it's own what makes her strong, but when one of your skills is significantly stronger than all comparable skills on similar champions, it makes making your kit well rounded somewhat awkward.
This calculation leaves out the fact that Vayne's W does not scale with crit, which is significant. Gold value from the bonus AD from W should be compared to the gold value of on hit modifiers like Wit's End or Madred's Bloodrazor - they also do not scale with crit, hence the lower gold cost per AD. On hit AD modifiers are tricky to value in gold, so let us look at the end result instead. Consider your case of a 3000 hp tank with 150 armor, resulting in an equivalent 170 AD gain per attack from W. Now let us compare Vayne to Tristana at at level 18, with an inventory consisting of Berserkers Greaves, Phantom Dancer, Infinity Edge and Last Whisper. (Standard AD carry runes, masteries etc.) Damage per second: Vayne without W: 695 Vayne with W: 959 Bonus dps from W: 264 Tristana without Q: 661 Tristana with Q: 915 Bonus dps from Q: 254 So Vayne's 264 are actually very close to Tristana's 254 making the steroids comparable. And don't forget the advantagous case for Vayne. For any target with lower hp/armor Tristana's Q will come out more valuable, and likewise any extra dps items purchased will add to Tristana's Q pulling ahead. And this is assuming max amount of procs from Vayne's W. TL;DR The above post left out the exponentially scaling properties of dps items. Tristana's Q adds comparable or more dps than Vayne's W in most circumstances (unless the target is very tanky). PS. TheYango I enjoy your posts as they are always informative.
On December 29 2011 23:25 Therealdevil wrote:
Tristana's Q has downtime though.
Also situational things like killing an alistair with his ult up is something only vayne can do :3
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Blyf wrote
It does. And Vayne's W is only 60% efficient at 5 hits. 0% at 1 and 2 hits. Lots of things to factor in.
Vayne's ult steroid makes her do substantially more dps though.
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But see, it doesn't matter how much damage you do to squishy targets late game. Both Trist and Vayne will 3-4shot squishies. The ones that you have to worry about are Randuin+FH bruisers diving your ass, and Vayne shreds those guys much better than Trist.
Trist's advantage is that she has much longer range, which makes it harder to dive her since she's further back in the team and still chunking you.
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That's a pretty sizable advantage, bro. She also has a long-ass jump and a get the fuck out of my face nuke.
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On November 29 2012 23:41 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2012 23:32 Sermokala wrote:On November 29 2012 22:49 OutlaW- wrote:
The fact that you lose DPS by tumbling 98% percent of the time doesn't matter - you need to reposition yourself so you have to use that Tumble anyway. A little trick I learned is that if you tumble into a wall, the animation is short enough where it won't cost you anything. Always do that when doing golems/dragon/baron/situationally in fights. I've also found that dravens spinning axes will land at your feet twice before moving anywhere else if you put your back to a wall and just attack minions with it. VERY useful in the jungle as it makes every aa a spinning axe proc. AFAIK, as long as you stand still, there's 2 options for your spinning Axe: it either lands to your feet or very close to your left or your right. Does that really change if you put your back to a wall?
Yeah I've found that it will interact with the wall and the sign will show up with it actualy landing on the wall. however if you just stay in the same place that you were standing before it will act like you caught it just fine and you'll be able to throw it again. This works really well when your going from wraiths to red and you have 2 spinning axes that will give you 4 free hits with a leash before you have to move. This is the breakthough I've found for jungle draven btw. you can sit in safe leash aggro distance away from the red and finish it off quick without anyone really getting any damage.
Dravens e is the most crazy gank skill I've seen. Its effectively 4 things. 1. damage ,not as noticeable as your q madness but still a good hit 2. Reposistion. If you're running at them sideways from the river or from behind you can effectively wait for your opertunity (it has a massive range btw think ez's essence flux range) and throw it at them to push them closer to your guy 3. hard stun, Because the reposision treats them as they're knocked up and they can't cast spells move or attack it should be considered a hard stun for a second at least. 4. Slow. It has a 15% scaling up to 40% slow which is awesome.
I have no idea whats a good build though for jungle draven even in the new item set. offtanky with btrk and ancient golum BC LW fmallet is what I'm working though right now.
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Wow, thanks for the info. That's really, really interesting. I'm not sure how to apply this to my ''normal'' ADC Draven play, but I will damn sure give it a try.
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On November 30 2012 00:41 OutlaW- wrote:
That's a pretty sizable advantage, bro. She also has a long-ass jump and a get the fuck out of my face nuke.
The discussion wasn't about who's a better AD carry...it's about who does more damage. My point is that damage to squishies shouldn't be considered, and that they have different methods for dealing with tanks (Vayne does more damage but has to spend more time repositioning).
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I'm telling you that Tris does more damage because she is much more safer, which in practice means that she's able to get more auto-attacks off. If you manage to force a 1v1 situation with Vayne, then either you're god, lucky, or they are stupid. I'm not trying to disprove any math that Vayne has more DPS. All I'm saying is that depending on the situation Tris will be able to deal more damage than Vayne because she will be able to get more auto-attacks in.
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Trist needs too much farm to be of any use comparing to vayne. Vayne is weak early, but after a pd she is already pretty strong and mobile. Also trist is not that safer, vayne has a 2s cd tumble that makes her invisible with ult, it's really easy to be safe with her with the right engage and positionning, if there is no malphite on the opponent team.
Late late game maybe trist is safer, but late late is too late anyway.
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Oh yeah? Well my ADC can beat your ADC!
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Invis OP, I agree. Oracle says hi though. Tris is still at least 2x safer than Vayne. And yes, Vayne has a better mid game, no shit. But not strong enough to be able to cut through fed tanks easily, so it evens out, and then Tris starts shining again. I feel like you put a lot of arguments into a few sentences without really any explaining or point, though.
Okay man, no. Tris is always safer. I thought you were saying vayne's mid game is stronger as in she has more damage. Yes, I agree. But Tris is still always safer, what the fuck. Do you play ADs?
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On November 30 2012 01:21 OutlaW- wrote:
Invis OP, I agree. Oracle says hi though. Tris is still at least 2x safer than Vayne. And yes, Vayne has a better mid game, no shit. But not strong enough to be able to cut through fed tanks easily, so it evens out, and then Tris starts shining again. I feel like you put a lot of arguments into a few sentences without really any explaining or point, though.
Okay man, no. Tris is always safer. I thought you were saying vayne's mid game is stronger as in she has more damage. Yes, I agree. But Tris is still always safer, what the fuck. Do you play ADs?
Because first item build is PD with vayne (or one of the first). You're faster, can position easier, and invisibility with rarely any oracle early is nice.
Trist mid game only has jump flash, barely any mobility in comparaison to other adc who often buy % move speed in their core build (ez corki vayne).
What's the "do you play ad" for ? troll.
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I hate PD first on Vayne. But maybe that's why I'm so bad on her.
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On November 30 2012 01:28 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 01:21 OutlaW- wrote:
Invis OP, I agree. Oracle says hi though. Tris is still at least 2x safer than Vayne. And yes, Vayne has a better mid game, no shit. But not strong enough to be able to cut through fed tanks easily, so it evens out, and then Tris starts shining again. I feel like you put a lot of arguments into a few sentences without really any explaining or point, though.
Okay man, no. Tris is always safer. I thought you were saying vayne's mid game is stronger as in she has more damage. Yes, I agree. But Tris is still always safer, what the fuck. Do you play ADs? Because first item build is PD with vayne (or one of the first). You're faster, can position easier, and invisibility with rarely any oracle early is nice. Trist mid game only has jump flash, barely any mobility in comparaison to other adc who often buy % move speed in their core build (ez corki vayne). What's the "do you play ad" for ? troll.
I don't know about comparing with trist specifically (i havn't played any trist recently), but vayne isn't even remotely 'safe' as an adc in the midgame. She absolutely MUST be within 550 range to do damage, which is well within the danger zone of most bruisers. If vayne is behind at all in the midgame, then she just gets absolutely demolished, and it becomes really really hard to do anything unless your support/frontline is working overtime.
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EPT
