|
United States47024 Posts
The snowbally nature of most assassins comes from the fact that their kits are designed around solo-killing, so either they can do their job and anyone who they can kill hides in fear, or they can't and they're useless.
This doesn't happen to Diana because she has high AoE damage and an insanely good setup skill. She retains her teamfight power even without having to go all-in on damage to be able to solo kill people (hence why it's possible to see Diana with tremendous effectiveness with defensive/utility items, and not just all damage), which likewise means she retains her effectiveness throughout early, mid, and lategame, and without needing to be super fed to do so.
TBH Diana's base values are just too high. Riot vastly underestimated her baseline survivability and usefulness of E, and so gave her baseline damage values equivalent to an assassin--when she pretty much doesn't need damage values that high because of the other things she brings to the table.
|
I don't consider Akali's lane phase to be that powerful (I think she has more neutral or bad match ups than positive ones). LB's lane phase is definitely good but if you don't get kills or help other lanes win LB falls off fast. Talon's lane phase is fine. Kat isn't that great at laning, she's just really good at roaming lol. She isn't bad at lane phase but no one plays Katarina because she's good at laning or is going to hard counter an opponent in mid.
Diana doesn't need to get kills to be effective because she can farm safe against anyone with just Qs. She has more positive match ups than negative ones. Late game she has E which is retarded in team fights. She's different from other assassins because she doesn't have a power curve of being stupidly strong in midgame and then falling off late. She's stupidly strong in mid game and never really falls off lol.
edit:
And yeah, she has tanky base stats and good ratios that make her less of a glass cannon than most other assassins.
|
On October 02 2012 17:26 overt wrote:
Been playing a lot of Diana lately. God damn she's ridiculously good. I don't think she really has any bad lane match ups. Sure, there are tougher lanes but no one can stop her from farming and post-6 she has kill potential against everyone.
I feel like Riot is going to nerf her at least one more time especially since I think we'll see a lot of her at worlds. But wow her power as an assassin is absolutely absurd. She's gonna be hard to balance though. She's such a good assassin and she doesn't have the weak lane phase that lots of other assassins have.
Is she actually fun though? i played her like twice on free week and she felt just so strong that I was gonna buy her....but then I thought about it, and realized she just didn't have enough depth to keep me interested.
You just end waiting around till someone is low then up doing the same QWRR combo....didn't seem very entertaining compared to mids with more interesting kits that can really give you room to outplay people like Orianna and Syndra or Anivia or Ahri
|
On October 02 2012 17:26 overt wrote:
Been playing a lot of Diana lately. God damn she's ridiculously good. I don't think she really has any bad lane match ups. Sure, there are tougher lanes but no one can stop her from farming and post-6 she has kill potential against everyone.
I feel like Riot is going to nerf her at least one more time especially since I think we'll see a lot of her at worlds. But wow her power as an assassin is absolutely absurd. She's gonna be hard to balance though. She's such a good assassin and she doesn't have the weak lane phase that lots of other assassins have.
Diana has a lot of problems against Swain, Ryze, and Mordekaiser. The Swain match up is so hard it makes me cry. Good thing he becomes nearly useless after the 30th minute.....
EDIT: a funny thing is Diana is a counterpick to all of the other assassins that go mid. Diana utterly crushes LeBlanc, Katarina, and Kassadin and does fairly good against Talon and Akali.
|
On October 02 2012 17:47 overt wrote:
I don't consider Akali's lane phase to be that powerful (I think she has more neutral or bad match ups than positive ones). LB's lane phase is definitely good but if you don't get kills or help other lanes win LB falls off fast. Talon's lane phase is fine. Kat isn't that great at laning, she's just really good at roaming lol. She isn't bad at lane phase but no one plays Katarina because she's good at laning or is going to hard counter an opponent in mid.
Diana doesn't need to get kills to be effective because she can farm safe against anyone with just Qs. She has more positive match ups than negative ones. Late game she has E which is retarded in team fights. She's different from other assassins because she doesn't have a power curve of being stupidly strong in midgame and then falling off late. She's stupidly strong in mid game and never really falls off lol.
Kat can mid and win against pretty much anyone in the game with a bit of skill and has good waveclear...thats seem like really good laning to me. You don't have to brutalize people to have great laning, its her viability across all matchups that makes Kat strong in lane.
|
yeah given her aoe and cc she just seems more suited to be a tanky ap fighter to me than an assassin. There are certainly some heroes that need more serious work than her though... I doubt she's high on the priority list.
|
On October 02 2012 17:47 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 17:26 overt wrote:
Been playing a lot of Diana lately. God damn she's ridiculously good. I don't think she really has any bad lane match ups. Sure, there are tougher lanes but no one can stop her from farming and post-6 she has kill potential against everyone.
I feel like Riot is going to nerf her at least one more time especially since I think we'll see a lot of her at worlds. But wow her power as an assassin is absolutely absurd. She's gonna be hard to balance though. She's such a good assassin and she doesn't have the weak lane phase that lots of other assassins have. Is she actually fun though? i played her like twice on free week and she felt just so strong that I was gonna buy her....but then I thought about it, and realized she just didn't have enough depth to keep me interested. You just end waiting around till someone is low then up doing the same QWRR combo....didn't seem very entertaining compared to mids with more interesting kits that can really give you room to outplay people like Orianna and Syndra or Anivia or Ahri
She's a lot more fun than other assassins imo. Her E gives her a lot more team fight utility than any other assassin. Jumping onto an AD carry or the enemy AP and then Eing 4-5 people can win team fights right then and there.
I guess she's not as complex as Ori or Anivia or Syndra. But if you like playing assassins and you like playing champions with a lot of team fight control Diana is a pretty nice middle ground champion. It also doesn't hurt that she seriously doesn't have bad lane match ups. Like, I've never run across someone in mid where I'm like, "oh fuck can't win this lane."
Biggest downside is that she's definitely OP and will probably get nerfed. But I think her kit is so good that she's gonna always be viable.
edit:
I really don't like Katarina so I'm pretty biased against her. I think most AP mids outscale her too. So yeah, her laning is probably fine. Maybe even really good. I just don't like that champion.
|
On October 02 2012 17:52 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 17:47 sob3k wrote:On October 02 2012 17:26 overt wrote:
Been playing a lot of Diana lately. God damn she's ridiculously good. I don't think she really has any bad lane match ups. Sure, there are tougher lanes but no one can stop her from farming and post-6 she has kill potential against everyone.
I feel like Riot is going to nerf her at least one more time especially since I think we'll see a lot of her at worlds. But wow her power as an assassin is absolutely absurd. She's gonna be hard to balance though. She's such a good assassin and she doesn't have the weak lane phase that lots of other assassins have. Is she actually fun though? i played her like twice on free week and she felt just so strong that I was gonna buy her....but then I thought about it, and realized she just didn't have enough depth to keep me interested. You just end waiting around till someone is low then up doing the same QWRR combo....didn't seem very entertaining compared to mids with more interesting kits that can really give you room to outplay people like Orianna and Syndra or Anivia or Ahri She's a lot more fun than other assassins imo. Her E gives her a lot more team fight utility than any other assassin. Jumping onto an AD carry or the enemy AP and then Eing 4-5 people can win team fights right then and there. I guess she's not as complex as Ori or Anivia or Syndra. But if you like playing assassins and you like playing champions with a lot of team fight control Diana is a pretty nice middle ground champion. It also doesn't hurt that she seriously doesn't have bad lane match ups. Like, I've never run across someone in mid where I'm like, "oh fuck can't win this lane." Biggest downside is that she's definitely OP and will probably get nerfed. But I think her kit is so good that she's gonna always be viable. edit: I really don't like Katarina so I'm pretty biased against her. I think most AP mids outscale her too. So yeah, her laning is probably fine. Maybe even really good. I just don't like that champion.
I don't think Diana needs more nerfs. She currently stands at 50% for soloQ ranked, and assassins like Diana perform even worse in coordinated (i.e. pro) play.
If anything Riot needs to nerf Zyra first (as far as the mid lane is concerned). The plant bitch could use another swing of the nerf bat.
|
On October 02 2012 17:47 overt wrote:
I don't consider Akali's lane phase to be that powerful (I think she has more neutral or bad match ups than positive ones). LB's lane phase is definitely good but if you don't get kills or help other lanes win LB falls off fast. Talon's lane phase is fine. Kat isn't that great at laning, she's just really good at roaming lol. She isn't bad at lane phase but no one plays Katarina because she's good at laning or is going to hard counter an opponent in mid.
Diana doesn't need to get kills to be effective because she can farm safe against anyone with just Qs. She has more positive match ups than negative ones. Late game she has E which is retarded in team fights. She's different from other assassins because she doesn't have a power curve of being stupidly strong in midgame and then falling off late. She's stupidly strong in mid game and never really falls off lol.
edit:
And yeah, she has tanky base stats and good ratios that make her less of a glass cannon than most other assassins.
akali and talon are known to be shutdown lanes. certainly not vs any champ but these two have extremely strong, reliable harass and especially akali has a massive deathzone after 6. kat has a ton of good matchups because it is so easy to dodge skillshots with her. There are not alot of mid champions who beat those champs in lane. Their laneing is also very risky though because they rely on getting very close, which oppens opportunities for enemy jungle ganks.
|
United States47024 Posts
On October 02 2012 17:56 Sufficiency wrote:
I don't think Diana needs more nerfs. She currently stands at 50% for soloQ ranked, and assassins like Diana perform even worse in coordinated (i.e. pro) play.
Again, comparing Diana blindly to assassins like Akali and Talon isn't really useful because of the inherent differences in her kit and WHY she is strong.
The main thing about Diana in arranged play that gets overlooked in solo play is how much of a force she is in the draft. The setup ability of her E enhances the value of pretty much every other AoE skill in the game, such that if you let the enemy have first pick Diana, there's a ton of other shit that you suddenly have to worry about them picking that wouldn't have been a big deal otherwise. Everything she can potentially set up becomes a problem--while at the same time just picking Diana doesn't actually commit you to anything. This sort of draft nightmare is something that is much MORE relevant to arranged play than solo queue.
The main thing is that Diana allows you to create this draft pressure with a SINGLE pick. Combos like Ori+Malphite perform a similar function, but require you to use two picks to set it up. From the perspective of playing the draft, being able to create a threat that your opponent has to be able to answer with just a single pick is a nightmare to draft against (which is what makes her a must-ban in the majority of cases--it's just too hard to pick against, and too easy to pick improperly against).
|
I'm pretty sure Diana is gonna be picked or banned in way more games at S2 than people realize. Most AP mids realize how stupid she is. jiji said on release that she's one of the most OP champions Riot has ever created.
To go along with what Yango said, Diana is stupid as first pick. There's really no bad lane match ups that she has mid. And she can be run top lane.
|
United States47024 Posts
And the number of champions that suddenly become dangerous 2nd/3rd picks that you would not otherwise care about when the other team has Diana probably runs into the double digits.
|
2 games with this honor system, after both this huge "pls honor me, so i will give u honor back" trading going on. 
|
On October 02 2012 18:05 TheYango wrote:
And the number of champions that suddenly become dangerous 2nd/3rd picks that you would not otherwise care about when the other team has Diana probably runs into the double digits.
Mmmmn. That recent MME.F vs Orb game where Hai took Diana into the jungle so Orb could run double AP (Ryze/Katarina) - combined with their Ezreal/Sona botlane, all he had to do was land a good E to win Orb teamfights; IIRC he had very few kills and the most deaths on his team, but a bananas amount of assists. Hourglass followed by GA let him soak up a lot of attempted peel/counterinitiation, too.
|
|
|
United States47024 Posts
Honestly, just think about JUST the trouble that Diana makes you worry about in what support her team is going to get: Diana+Nunu, Diana+Alistar, Diana+Sona, Diana+Leona, Diana+Lulu,...
Pretty much EVERY common support other than Taric or Soraka gets an insane amount of value-added from having Diana picked (obviously not in the same lane), to the point of almost all of them forming combos that have the potential to insta-win teamfights. Now consider that Diana has this effect on pretty much every role (especially since she has the flexibility to be put in multiple lanes).
|
On October 02 2012 18:19 Haasts wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 18:05 TheYango wrote:
And the number of champions that suddenly become dangerous 2nd/3rd picks that you would not otherwise care about when the other team has Diana probably runs into the double digits. Mmmmn. That recent MME.F vs Orb game where Hai took Diana into the jungle so Orb could run double AP (Ryze/Katarina) - combined with their Ezreal/Sona botlane, all he had to do was land a good E to win Orb teamfights; IIRC he had very few kills and the most deaths on his team, but a bananas amount of assists. Hourglass followed by GA let him soak up a lot of attempted peel/counterinitiation, too.
I didn't watch that game. Gonna have to check for VODs tomorrow. But that combination of Diana jungle plus Ryze/Katarina sounds so stupid. You could have Diana get Abyssal, Kat and Ryze get WotA, Ryze always builds Frozen Heart, damn. Just those three picks have so much synergy. Not just with their kits but also item synergy that doesn't require any of them to go outside of the norm.
|
United States47024 Posts
Then you think about it and realize that with Diana, you could slap together whatever for lanes, and still probably end up with 2-3 "game-breaking combos" anyway by virtue of her E. Most champs have a few specific pairs that form those kinds of insane interactions, but Diana does it with a ridiculous fraction of the champ pool.
|
On October 02 2012 17:51 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 17:47 overt wrote:
I don't consider Akali's lane phase to be that powerful (I think she has more neutral or bad match ups than positive ones). LB's lane phase is definitely good but if you don't get kills or help other lanes win LB falls off fast. Talon's lane phase is fine. Kat isn't that great at laning, she's just really good at roaming lol. She isn't bad at lane phase but no one plays Katarina because she's good at laning or is going to hard counter an opponent in mid.
Diana doesn't need to get kills to be effective because she can farm safe against anyone with just Qs. She has more positive match ups than negative ones. Late game she has E which is retarded in team fights. She's different from other assassins because she doesn't have a power curve of being stupidly strong in midgame and then falling off late. She's stupidly strong in mid game and never really falls off lol. Kat can mid and win against pretty much anyone in the game with a bit of skill and has good waveclear...thats seem like really good laning to me. You don't have to brutalize people to have great laning, its her viability across all matchups that makes Kat strong in lane.
Kat's first few levels are really weak. If she doesn't get bullied at level 1-3, then yes, she is a strong laner. But since she is melee, there are quite a bunch of champs who can abuse that weakness.
|
I've been thinking about it and I'm really unhappy with the champions riot has been releasing lately. The power levels have just been so inconsistent and some of them are really painful to play against.
Darius: Incredibly unfun to play against, blatantly broken on release. I feel like the number of yorick level "this fucking sucks" champs doubled when he came out.
Jayce: Really...? Such a non-interactive kit. It's the same as the old designs where melees would deal damage and block counterplay with huge, free shields or heals, except this time it's tons of disengage that costs no mana instead. Here's another guy that's fucking lame to lane against, at least he's only teir 2 or 3 in obnoxiousness and he can't use Bore to Tears if you're in a different lane. They didn't really peg his power on release either, expecting another nerf.
Zyra: No complaints about the champ... just they completely whiffed the release balance... again. Before this list you have to go back to graves to find a champ that was released ridiculously broken, or maybe naut if you're a huge wuss.
Diana: Released pretty op. has some role confusion but I don't hate her like I do the next release, everyone can agree she's tolerable at worst.
Rengar: lol. King of this list. This guy went straight up to number 1 on my toxicity charts, playing rengar's top target is probably the most unfun experience you can consistently have in this game. Why would a champion like this exist?! The difficulty finding the counterplay required to even survive vs this guy is insane! Shutting him down is another story entirely. If you've had the Rengar Experience you know exactly what i'm talking about, it's just indisputable that he never should have made it to release with this skill set.
Syndra: Thank you riot! I'm so glad this hero breaks the pattern, you have no idea.
I probably whine less about balance than 90% of the regular posters here, but this shit cannot stand. The more I think about it the more the last couple months have made the game substantially worse for me. I just do not want to play hoping an increasing number of champions don't show up so that I can have a good time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
