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On September 25 2012 02:36 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 01:13 zulu_nation8 wrote:
your mindset is building for safety when you're ahead, or building defense when you're a poke champion, building to cover weakness instead of maximizing strength. I don't agree with it and think it's plain wrong. You can still get gp10 after mana manipulator, 295 gold is very cheap for an item that helps your laning tremendously. If you build HP for defense vs jungler ganks, and build shurelia for ulting people in lane, then you're spending gold to cover mechanical and awareness weaknesses, which is the most inefficient logic. 2 spells a minute is huge.
My mindset is building shit that actually helps me outside of laning phase, yes. Mananip does not. Apparently, getting ganked is an awareness weakness now and I should build like I was playing perfectly - alright then, if you are good enough to do that, it's great, I am not, and I have to adjust my builds accordingly. I also said, multiple times even, that as a money-starved support I just don't want to spend 475 gold (and no, it's not just 295 because you still have to get another FC for Philo) on having 2 more spells per minute instead of getting crucial items (HoG / Kindlegem / Ruby for Aegis) earlier. And if I did, I would just get mana pots. Since you fail to adress my points or even properly read my posts (I said I wouldn't build Shurelias in lane, just that it's still better for sustain than Mananip), let's just call it quits here.
dont get philo on sona, if you wanna itemize to prevent vs ganks why not just buy wards all laning phase with mobility boots
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On September 25 2012 02:42 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 02:41 wei2coolman wrote:
So we should abandon our AD carry in bot lane, and go into midlane and steal their cs instead? Or even better, take the already farm starved jungler's wraiths? Do you regularly have laning phases that go that long? Do you not roam the map warding after laning phase is over, and pass farmable lanes/jungle that you could take very quickly along the way?
The only time laning phase is short, is when I'm duo queuing with my friend, and he goes legendary in the first 10 minutes as Ez.
Usually laning phase is preserved for quite a bit in most cases. Other than warding dragon, respective buffs, tribush, and to help out in counter jungling, most supports don't wander that far off of botlane, and even then, it's still close enough for support to retreat back into lane to help out Ad carry.
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On September 25 2012 02:39 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 02:37 Requizen wrote:On September 25 2012 02:32 TheYango wrote:On September 25 2012 01:13 zulu_nation8 wrote:
pretty sure lots of teams do that, and I've never seen an AD in solo queue who gets mad when the support asks first before taking cs. Then why spend that gold on gp10 items? If you can get the gold you need from taking some lane/jungle farm whenever you need it, how is gp10 more useful for a support than for any of the other roles who don't buy them anymore? Because one wave for an item isn't the same as getting to farm a lane full time. An AD might be ok with letting you get some CS for a gp10, but if you say something like "hey, can I get the next 4-5 waves? I need Aegis/WotA/whatever)", you're going to be laughed at at best. Better to get enough so you can get a constant gold stream early, then try not to take any that he could get otherwise. By the time you have your gp10s, you're not going to be in lane full time anyway. Taking every other Wraith spawn is equivalent to gp10 gold, or alternatively, taking 1 creep wave every 4 minutes (which don't all have to be from your AD). I don't know why people are assuming this happens in laning phase. Almost none of the gold earn by gp10 items is earned during the laning phase. I'm not saying steal CS from your AD, I'm saying that post-laning phase, when there are pushed lanes/farmable jungle camps, it's very easy to let the support get them every now and then instead of, say, having the AP go insta-clear them without a second thought.
Maybe it's just my experience at lower ELO, but bot lane rarely leaves until 25+ minutes, even if the other lanes are dead and gone. And it's not rare that I'd get Philo before 10 minutes between snagging some CS, gp10 mastery/runes, and any kills that happen.
In higher level games, maybe laning is over and done, and even when it goes long you generally don't have the option to get Philo or whatever early on anyway (low kills, need wards, can't back, etc), but my experience has been contrary.
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On September 25 2012 02:41 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 02:39 TheYango wrote:On September 25 2012 02:37 Requizen wrote:On September 25 2012 02:32 TheYango wrote:On September 25 2012 01:13 zulu_nation8 wrote:
pretty sure lots of teams do that, and I've never seen an AD in solo queue who gets mad when the support asks first before taking cs. Then why spend that gold on gp10 items? If you can get the gold you need from taking some lane/jungle farm whenever you need it, how is gp10 more useful for a support than for any of the other roles who don't buy them anymore? Because one wave for an item isn't the same as getting to farm a lane full time. An AD might be ok with letting you get some CS for a gp10, but if you say something like "hey, can I get the next 4-5 waves? I need Aegis/WotA/whatever)", you're going to be laughed at at best. Better to get enough so you can get a constant gold stream early, then try not to take any that he could get otherwise. By the time you have your gp10s, you're not going to be in lane full time anyway. Taking every other Wraith spawn is equivalent to gp10 gold, or alternatively, taking 1 creep wave every 4 minutes (which don't all have to be from your AD). I don't know why people are assuming this happens in laning phase. Almost none of the gold earn by gp10 items is earned during the laning phase. So we should abandon our AD carry in bot lane, and go into midlane and steal their cs instead? Or even better, take the already farm starved jungler's wraiths?
You're never going to get wraiths as support tbh, it's like jungler's primary income and these days even scumbag mids take them at every other respawn.
Double golems or wolfs camps (depending on your side) is the one you can realistically get sometimes, cause they are a bit far away so while jungler is of ganking top, it hurts no1 to get wolfs. blue side is even nicer cause lots of junglers ignore double golems, or take them once a blue moon so these are up very often.
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On September 25 2012 02:44 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 02:36 Shiv. wrote:On September 25 2012 01:13 zulu_nation8 wrote:
your mindset is building for safety when you're ahead, or building defense when you're a poke champion, building to cover weakness instead of maximizing strength. I don't agree with it and think it's plain wrong. You can still get gp10 after mana manipulator, 295 gold is very cheap for an item that helps your laning tremendously. If you build HP for defense vs jungler ganks, and build shurelia for ulting people in lane, then you're spending gold to cover mechanical and awareness weaknesses, which is the most inefficient logic. 2 spells a minute is huge.
My mindset is building shit that actually helps me outside of laning phase, yes. Mananip does not. Apparently, getting ganked is an awareness weakness now and I should build like I was playing perfectly - alright then, if you are good enough to do that, it's great, I am not, and I have to adjust my builds accordingly. I also said, multiple times even, that as a money-starved support I just don't want to spend 475 gold (and no, it's not just 295 because you still have to get another FC for Philo) on having 2 more spells per minute instead of getting crucial items (HoG / Kindlegem / Ruby for Aegis) earlier. And if I did, I would just get mana pots. Since you fail to adress my points or even properly read my posts (I said I wouldn't build Shurelias in lane, just that it's still better for sustain than Mananip), let's just call it quits here. dont get philo on sona, if you wanna itemize to prevent vs ganks why not just buy wards all laning phase with mobility boots
Sarcasm doesn't help your point.
First of all, the 800 or so gold, that's the cost of philo. No support needs that volume of wards in such a short period of time, rather it's better to invest in a steady stream of ward money (while still itemizing for later game item, and stats), than it is to buy bulk wards.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 25 2012 02:37 Requizen wrote:
Because one wave for an item isn't the same as getting to farm a lane full time. An AD might be ok with letting you get some CS for a gp10, but if you say something like "hey, can I get the next 4-5 waves? I need Aegis/WotA/whatever)", you're going to be laughed at at best. Better to get enough so you can get a constant gold stream early, then try not to take any that he could get otherwise.
That's actually my point though. If the support is close to a critical item timing, the value of that timing is no less than that of another hero.
If the support is 500 gold from Aegis, and nobody else is 500 gold from a completed item, then how is it better to let the other champs bank gold than for the support to get 3-4 waves for Aegis?
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On September 25 2012 02:48 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 02:37 Requizen wrote:
Because one wave for an item isn't the same as getting to farm a lane full time. An AD might be ok with letting you get some CS for a gp10, but if you say something like "hey, can I get the next 4-5 waves? I need Aegis/WotA/whatever)", you're going to be laughed at at best. Better to get enough so you can get a constant gold stream early, then try not to take any that he could get otherwise. That's actually my point though. If the support is close to a critical item timing, the value of that timing is no less than that of another hero. If the support is 500 gold from Aegis, and nobody else is 500 gold from a completed item, then how is it better to let the other champs bank gold than for the support to get 3-4 waves for Aegis?
Because, an earlier item timing on another champ is almost always stronger than it is for support, at least 90% of the time.
Lets say the AP mid is 800 gold from DC, and I'm 300 away from AOTL. I rather the AP mid get his DC 300 gold earlier, because the powercurve increase, and timing on the DC is much stronger than it is from AOTL.
This is even more fragile in botlane, where ad carries are super item dependent, there's no way in hell, as a support am I going to gimp my ADC, 300-500 gold, just so I can get AOTL, when he can easily get a BF sword that much earlier.
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On September 25 2012 02:48 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 02:37 Requizen wrote:
Because one wave for an item isn't the same as getting to farm a lane full time. An AD might be ok with letting you get some CS for a gp10, but if you say something like "hey, can I get the next 4-5 waves? I need Aegis/WotA/whatever)", you're going to be laughed at at best. Better to get enough so you can get a constant gold stream early, then try not to take any that he could get otherwise. That's actually my point though. If the support is close to a critical item timing, the value of that timing is no less than that of another hero. If the support is 500 gold from Aegis, and nobody else is 500 gold from a completed item, then how is it better to let the other champs bank gold than for the support to get 3-4 waves for Aegis?
Sound logic, for sure. And I'd agree, aside from 2 points.
1) Solo queue. Good luck getting anyone to listen to that, at nearly any level. You'll get some, but not many.
2) A matter of efficiency, which is hard to measure. Is a Soraka with a Reverie or Aegis right now and an Ezreal with a BF Sword in 8 minutes going to help the team more than an Ezreal with a BF Sword in 3 minutes and a Soraka with an Aegis in ~5 minutes (random numbers, but you get the idea)? Can you really justify pushing back an AD's farm (who rely ~80% on items) to get a support item that may not even be in use during the interim? What if you take that farm for an Aegis and you're never in a teamfight for the next however long?
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United States47024 Posts
If two heroes are that close to an item timing, the optimal play is to arrange gold distribution in such a way that they hit that timing at the exact same time. It's never the case where all 5 heroes on your team are going to be that close to an item. And if you get 2 or 3 items to line up, that's a powerful enough advantage to force an objective, which turns around the dry spell of farm you put on the guys who didn't have items coming up because they get gold either from the objective/teamfight, or from cleaning up farm from pushed lanes after the fight (since now they're closer to items than the people who finished their major items before the teamfight).
The obvious corollary to this is that there's no point in making this kind of farm distribution when an immediate item won't turn into an objective, which is why I was ignoring the laning phase, because in that case it's nonsensical for the support to take CS from the AD when you're not going to teamfight in the forseeable future.
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Baa?21242 Posts
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On September 25 2012 02:56 TheYango wrote:
If two heroes are that close to an item timing, the optimal play is to arrange gold distribution in such a way that they hit that timing at the exact same time. It's never the case where all 5 heroes on your team are going to be that close to an item. And if you get 2 or 3 items to line up, that's a powerful enough advantage to force an objective, which turns around the dry spell of farm you put on the guys who didn't have items coming up because they get gold either from the objective/teamfight, or from cleaning up farm from pushed lanes after the fight (since now they're closer to items than the people who finished their major items before the teamfight).
The obvious corollary to this is that there's no point in making this kind of farm distribution when an immediate item won't turn into an objective, which is why I was ignoring the laning phase, because in that case it's nonsensical for the support to take CS from the AD when you're not going to teamfight in the forseeable future.
OK, yeah. IF you and your AD (or whoever you're farming near at the time) are both the same amount of gold away from your next item, and IF both items are of similar importance to the team (AP's DC, AD's IE, support's Shurelya or something), and IF splitting the farm isn't going to screw them over in some way (AD's BT stacks, stealing Jungler's already pittance income, stealing exp when it's needed), then sure, I'd agree with you. But that's a very fringe case, still like 90% of the time I'd refrain from taking my carry's farm because "omg I can get an Aegis a minute faster!", it's just not feasible for the team. The support's abilities and, for lack of a better word, support are what make them strong, items are just a bonus. Yeah, Leona/Ali/Taric get better with items because they occasionally need to facetank shit, but enough to justify lowering your carry's overall damage output? Not likely, imo.
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give yango green star and start handing out red "x"s please
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United States47024 Posts
On September 25 2012 02:54 Requizen wrote:
1) Solo queue. Good luck getting anyone to listen to that, at nearly any level. You'll get some, but not many.
That's why I said "some day people will..." in my original post, to which bly responded with "people already do". They don't, at least not in the capacity that I expected.
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I still double gp10 every game, lol. My rule of thumb is one cs per minute is generally alright during lane phase. If your carry backs, then the farm is more or less yours, but when they're getting back to lane you should freeze lane for him/her.
I start with gp10 quints and gp5 masteries for a free gp10 right off, then philo first (its easy to get one before 10), and Kage for squishy and HoG for tanky. I count on getting philo + 75 gp at or around 10 b/c that's when my 3 initial wards are about out. I try to get boots and second gp10 after that, then it depends on champ.
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On September 25 2012 03:03 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 02:54 Requizen wrote:
1) Solo queue. Good luck getting anyone to listen to that, at nearly any level. You'll get some, but not many.
That's why I said "some day people will..." in my original post, to which bly responded with "people already do". They don't, at least not in the capacity that I expected.
pretty sure they do though for pro teams at least, and most ranked 5s teams i assume do it, my support always asks the ad if he needs extra gold for first philo.
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People undervalue aegis so much
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United States47024 Posts
On September 25 2012 03:17 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 03:03 TheYango wrote:On September 25 2012 02:54 Requizen wrote:
1) Solo queue. Good luck getting anyone to listen to that, at nearly any level. You'll get some, but not many.
That's why I said "some day people will..." in my original post, to which bly responded with "people already do". They don't, at least not in the capacity that I expected. pretty sure they do though for pro teams at least, and most ranked 5s teams i assume do it, my support always asks the ad if he needs extra gold for first philo.
Again, if that's the case, there should be no reason for supports on those teams to get gp10 items.
Logically speaking, if farm allocation is as fluid as you say it is, then the value of gp10 is contributing to the entire team's finances, because gold earned by the carrier could be allocated elsewhere. But that means that gp10 as a stat should be equally useful to everybody, which means either everybody should be buying them (as used to be the case when we had the really OP old HoG), or it's a stat not worth buying on anyone.
As it stands the logic of "only supports buy gp10" has no logical basis except for the case where farm distribution isn't as fluid as you claimed, and supports need gp10 for ward gold because teams won't give them enough farm for it.
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On September 25 2012 03:20 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 03:17 zulu_nation8 wrote:On September 25 2012 03:03 TheYango wrote:On September 25 2012 02:54 Requizen wrote:
1) Solo queue. Good luck getting anyone to listen to that, at nearly any level. You'll get some, but not many.
That's why I said "some day people will..." in my original post, to which bly responded with "people already do". They don't, at least not in the capacity that I expected. pretty sure they do though for pro teams at least, and most ranked 5s teams i assume do it, my support always asks the ad if he needs extra gold for first philo. Again, if that's the case, there should be no reason for supports on those teams to get gp10 items. Show nested quote +
Logically speaking, if farm allocation is as fluid as you say it is, then the value of gp10 is contributing to the entire team's finances, because gold earned by the carrier could be allocated elsewhere. But that means that gp10 as a stat should be equally useful to everybody, which means either everybody should be buying them (as used to be the case when we had the really OP old HoG), or it's a stat not worth buying on anyone.
As it stands the logic of "only supports buy gp10" has no logical basis except for the case where farm distribution isn't as fluid as you claimed, and supports need gp10 for ward gold because teams won't give them enough farm for it.
Good points. However, should gold allocation be fluid? I mean, sure, the support always wants to feel the love and get a decent build, and I'm sure your jungler would like to stop by and snag some farm as well. However, is that, in and of itself, logical?
Is it, in your opinion, better to have a team all with well rounded builds later? Is it better than to have a team with a gold starved Support and somewhat less starved Jungle (depending on ganks and how much time they get to spend farming jungle/stealing enemy jungle), but a really farmed as crap bruiser, AP carry, and AD carry? While we all love support items, is the Support getting their core as vital to the team as the AD or AP getting theirs?
I think it could be, and in some situations I'd be inclined to agree. Some supports and junglers would do well to "steal" some farm and become bigger presences (Karma getting AP, for instance, Leona getting unkillable, or a jungler like Jax getting TF faster), and some comps may even greatly benefit from this. Will it become the "meta"? I can't say, but in my view, probably not. People still want those big AD and AP powerhouses to get to monster status faster, so I doubt any time soon we'll see a team where all 5 people have similar farm status. And until then, it seems prudent that the person or people who are getting less farm but want Philo's stats (or Kage/HoG in some situations) are the ones that should be buying GP10s.
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I don't understand why people get gp/10 items on stuff like blitz,leona,alistar,etc.Last time I checked those supports are meant to kill people and not stand afk in a bush with a philo stone,waiting to get a lucky hook or whatever.I see people time and time again hording gold items when you can just stack dorans and stomp your lane,while having more wards in lane than you would have with buying gold items.
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EPT
