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United States35174 Posts
On September 25 2012 00:47 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 00:37 Glaceau wrote:On September 24 2012 23:04 Zenithal wrote:On September 24 2012 22:35 Cloud9157 wrote:On September 24 2012 19:12 De4ngus wrote:On September 24 2012 18:28 wei2coolman wrote:
It really depends on the laning phase though, or how the game flow is. But I feel much more comfortable getting philo+hog, into chalice, then finishing whatever item next (usually reverie).
sometimes laning phases are pretty aggressive, usually get kills, back, or shove lanes than backing, I'll delay getting chalice until after first big support item. but if lane phases are really extended, I either get 3rd gp10, or the chalice after hog. lol 3rd gp10 you are real funny. are useful items not fun to buy or something? better waste gold on items that give no stats! If what is happening as he described in his post, third gp/10 seems perfectly fine to me. If I find myself with stolen kills or a lot of assists, I always grab a pick and just sit on it all game. You lose philo stone eventually, so that way you should have the same gold intake as you would with just philo+hog until shurleya's, but for the entire game. Oh hey look, gp10s again. Let's boil this down for the umpteen-millionth time. Pro-gp10 outlook: give decent to good early game stats. Some are super cost effective (Philo) others not so much (HoG). They're good if you're going to be sitting in lane and farming instead of ever fighting or playing aggressively, since they give good laning stats like health, AP, and regen. Once they pay themselves off, which happens often in passive/longer games, they're good. Anti-gp10 outlook: Bad to Horrid cost effectiveness outside of Philo. Take too long to pay themselves off, you can't trade in lane ever because the stats don't give enough to do so. Early game is too aggressive in most cases to ever be wothrwhile, only ever worth it if you're building something it builds out of later (DFG with Kage's or Bruta with Avarice). I find myself in group 1, but I agree with group 2. I get them on champs that I'm going to be passive with (Bankplank, for example, some pure farm junglers though it's rare to play them, mids with weak early games where I'm not going to fight anyway), but wouldn't get them on lanes where I'm going to be fighting all the time (Riven or Darius for example, though I'll occasionally get HoG on either if they're being pansies and I can't fight at all). --- Speaking of Riven, she's gotten kind of forgotten about recently, but a good one knocked me on my ass the other day and I remembered how strong she really is. Need to get her back in top lane again. I think the reason riven has fallen out of favor in top lane, especially for competitive play, is that she really needs to snowball to be useful and her laning is subpar now. Your job is basically just to survive top lane in most lanes until you get your BT and GA and start getting strong. So with her now weak laning and her need to snowball she is a pretty contradictory character, the only way to make her work is camping top lane which is already expected anyway so it doesnt work that well. ?? I know I haven't played as or against Riven in a while, but what is weak about her laning? They nerfed her base health regen? She still has abusively high damage output, no mana, and can escape from ganks like nobody's business. I don't think she even has many bad matchups aside from maybe a couple ranged champions (I can see Jayce being tough, Teemo is annoying, etc).
It's getting to that damn BF sword consistently that holds her back. Sure she has the option of getting Hexdrinker against AP tops, but that's a specific case. Honestly, if they changed the BT recipe to make it more linear of a buildup or gave Brutalizer and upgrade so you weren't punished for building it early unless you're snowballing, she'd be in a much better place.
Riven is good. Her itemization options, not so much.
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On September 24 2012 18:11 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2012 17:48 zulu_nation8 wrote:
you start out with faerie charm so it's 295 gold. You're not actually snowballing your advantage in bot lane by getting ruby crystal if you're already stronger and zoning, a poke support does not engage in full trades from 100 to 0 but rather pokes the enemy down hence the need for mana regen. You get a ruby crystal if you're trading all in with say for example taric, then in which case you can tank a little more creeps and survive a little longer when you actually go for the kill. The CDR is useless if you're out of mana. Getting GP10 is the safest way to snowball and make sure you have gold income 20min from now. Rushing shurelia on a support is useless for laning, why would you ever need a speed boost to R someone whos in lane?
I'm talking about mana manipulator on Sona only btw. If GP10 is the safest way to snowball, why use that first faerie charm for Nip instead of Philo? I am aware how poke lanes work, but the moment their jungler comes, I will be happy to have a bunch of HP. I will also be happy to have more HP whenever they decide to engage on us as Sona is fairly squishy as it is. Same situation when laning phase ends, or when earlyish dragon fights happen. Of course the CDR is useless if you are out of mana, but Mananip won't save you from running OOM if you mindlessly spam and the CDR is more useful in any situation where you actually have mana. Also, you never adressed the fact that laning phase is inevitably going to end, rendering Mananip relatively useless, at least in comparison to what you could have (parts of Shurelias / Zeke's / Aegis). And I would want a speedboost to R people in lane because they generally don't stand still if a Sona comes running towards them. Not that I actually build Shurelias in lane, I just think if people crave sustain so much, it's still better than getting mananip. I am just trying to understand your reasoning, but I don't see how 2 more spells a minute will help you snowball a lane. Maybe it's a concept I can't grasp because at my Elo people don't play champions to their limits, I don't know.
your mindset is building for safety when you're ahead, or building defense when you're a poke champion, building to cover weakness instead of maximizing strength. I don't agree with it and think it's plain wrong. You can still get gp10 after mana manipulator, 295 gold is very cheap for an item that helps your laning tremendously. If you build HP for defense vs jungler ganks, and build shurelia for ulting people in lane, then you're spending gold to cover mechanical and awareness weaknesses, which is the most inefficient logic. 2 spells a minute is huge.
On September 24 2012 19:05 TheYango wrote:
It still boggles my mind that teams would rather make supports buy items that have no practical usefulness/efficiency rather than let them get 1-2 creeps a minute (or equivalently, a creep wave every 4 minutes, or a jungle camp every 2).
pretty sure lots of teams do that, and I've never seen an AD in solo queue who gets mad when the support asks first before taking cs.
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Sup folks, got a question again: what is this new Eve mid thingy currently?
I kept up and heard that Rengar + Jayce are pretty strong / op right now, but I suddenly see mid Eve everywhere, mostly resulting in a ridicolous spill over effect if played well. Last game I had 18/2 Eve carrying her team so hard.
Is this a solo q phenomenon or did some pro player run AP Eve and now it's becoming FOTM?
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I think only one pro has played Eve mid recently and they lost the game, but she's ridiculously strong these days with dfg + ult chunking squishies if not oneshotting them
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Her laning is pretty weak and she needs to gank to start snowballing, though her ganks are really strong with that passive.
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I think the wriggles nerf really hurt Riven's lane phase, free ward on cd + good sustain meant once you got wriggles you could just farm all day till bt, her escape and a 24/7 ward, it just was a farm fest if you let her get wriggles before getting behind.
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You can just stand in the bush, write in chat "shit dude, i'm lagging so hard" walk a bit towards the enemy, Q powercord 2 cs and write "lag".
do it like every 2 waves and you get nifty money.
also double golems are easy to do for sona after like lvl 5 if you have mana.
the lag strat works with taric WR in middle of the creep, janna fully charged by "missed torando" ect
blame lag, adquire money
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On September 25 2012 01:17 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
I think only one pro has played Eve mid recently and they lost the game, but she's ridiculously strong these days with dfg + ult chunking squishies if not oneshotting them
My problem is that you have to depend on the team to cc/exhaust the bitch before she burns 2-3 spells on you if you're the AD or AP because after that you're pretty much dead. Barely won a 4v5 yesterday because of her ability to just run in from the back and smash me
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On September 25 2012 01:50 SagaZ wrote:
You can just stand in the bush, write in chat "shit dude, i'm lagging so hard" walk a bit towards the enemy, Q powercord 2 cs and write "lag".
do it like every 2 waves and you get nifty money.
also double golems are easy to do for sona after like lvl 5 if you have mana.
the lag strat works with taric WR in middle of the creep, janna fully charged by "missed torando" ect
blame lag, adquire money
lol, neat
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On September 25 2012 02:04 qtiehunter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 01:50 SagaZ wrote:
You can just stand in the bush, write in chat "shit dude, i'm lagging so hard" walk a bit towards the enemy, Q powercord 2 cs and write "lag".
do it like every 2 waves and you get nifty money.
also double golems are easy to do for sona after like lvl 5 if you have mana.
the lag strat works with taric WR in middle of the creep, janna fully charged by "missed torando" ect
blame lag, adquire money lol, neat
Or you can say "need 100g for philo" and get 3 free creeps.
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Or you just play sona and KS everytime.
Loadsa money
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On September 25 2012 01:17 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
I think only one pro has played Eve mid recently and they lost the game, but she's ridiculously strong these days with dfg + ult chunking squishies if not oneshotting them
najin sword played it against azubu blaze in the 1st game of the finals of the korean WC qualifiers and Najin Sword won. Resulting in eve being banned by blaze in 2 of the later games.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 25 2012 01:13 zulu_nation8 wrote:
pretty sure lots of teams do that, and I've never seen an AD in solo queue who gets mad when the support asks first before taking cs.
Then why spend that gold on gp10 items?
If you can get the gold you need from taking some lane/jungle farm whenever you need it, how is gp10 more useful for a support than for any of the other roles who don't buy them anymore?
Logically speaking, if farm allocation is as fluid as you say it is, then the value of gp10 is contributing to the entire team's finances, because gold earned by the carrier could be allocated elsewhere. But that means that gp10 as a stat should be equally useful to everybody, which means either everybody should be buying them (as used to be the case when we had the really OP old HoG), or it's a stat not worth buying on anyone.
As it stands the logic of "only supports buy gp10 has no logical basis except for the case where farm distribution isn't as fluild as you claimed, and supports need gp10 for ward gold because teams won't give them enough farm for it.
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cuz you cant take like 800 gold
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On September 25 2012 02:32 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 01:13 zulu_nation8 wrote:
pretty sure lots of teams do that, and I've never seen an AD in solo queue who gets mad when the support asks first before taking cs. Then why spend that gold on gp10 items? If you can get the gold you need from taking some lane/jungle farm whenever you need it, how is gp10 more useful for a support than for any of the other roles who don't buy them anymore?
I only take the early cs for early gp10, then I stop for the most part. but that's a personal choice, most ad carreis get butthurt if support takes too much cs. but bot lane is very item dependent, so if cs is given to support, sometimes the money isn't itemized as well, it could be as simple as being a vamp sceptre behind, just because the support got an extra 5 cs, which could reverse snowball your lane to death.
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On September 25 2012 01:13 zulu_nation8 wrote:
your mindset is building for safety when you're ahead, or building defense when you're a poke champion, building to cover weakness instead of maximizing strength. I don't agree with it and think it's plain wrong. You can still get gp10 after mana manipulator, 295 gold is very cheap for an item that helps your laning tremendously. If you build HP for defense vs jungler ganks, and build shurelia for ulting people in lane, then you're spending gold to cover mechanical and awareness weaknesses, which is the most inefficient logic. 2 spells a minute is huge.
My mindset is building shit that actually helps me outside of laning phase, yes. Mananip does not. Apparently, getting ganked is an awareness weakness now and I should build like I was playing perfectly - alright then, if you are good enough to do that, it's great, I am not, and I have to adjust my builds accordingly. I also said, multiple times even, that as a money-starved support I just don't want to spend 475 gold (and no, it's not just 295 because you still have to get another FC for Philo) on having 2 more spells per minute instead of getting crucial items (HoG / Kindlegem / Ruby for Aegis) earlier. And if I did, I would just get mana pots. Since you fail to adress my points or even properly read my posts (I said I wouldn't build Shurelias in lane, just that it's still better for sustain than Mananip), let's just call it quits here.
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On September 25 2012 02:32 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 01:13 zulu_nation8 wrote:
pretty sure lots of teams do that, and I've never seen an AD in solo queue who gets mad when the support asks first before taking cs. Then why spend that gold on gp10 items? If you can get the gold you need from taking some lane/jungle farm whenever you need it, how is gp10 more useful for a support than for any of the other roles who don't buy them anymore?
Because one wave for an item isn't the same as getting to farm a lane full time. An AD might be ok with letting you get some CS for a gp10, but if you say something like "hey, can I get the next 4-5 waves? I need Aegis/WotA/whatever)", you're going to be laughed at at best. Better to get enough so you can get a constant gold stream early, then try not to take any that he could get otherwise.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 25 2012 02:37 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 02:32 TheYango wrote:On September 25 2012 01:13 zulu_nation8 wrote:
pretty sure lots of teams do that, and I've never seen an AD in solo queue who gets mad when the support asks first before taking cs. Then why spend that gold on gp10 items? If you can get the gold you need from taking some lane/jungle farm whenever you need it, how is gp10 more useful for a support than for any of the other roles who don't buy them anymore? Because one wave for an item isn't the same as getting to farm a lane full time. An AD might be ok with letting you get some CS for a gp10, but if you say something like "hey, can I get the next 4-5 waves? I need Aegis/WotA/whatever)", you're going to be laughed at at best. Better to get enough so you can get a constant gold stream early, then try not to take any that he could get otherwise.
By the time you have your gp10s, you're not going to be in lane full time anyway. Taking every other Wraith spawn is equivalent to gp10 gold, or alternatively, taking 1 creep wave every 4 minutes (which don't all have to be from your AD).
I don't know why people are assuming this happens in laning phase. Almost none of the gold earn by gp10 items is earned during the laning phase. I'm not saying steal CS from your AD, I'm saying that post-laning phase, when there are pushed lanes/farmable jungle camps, it's very easy to let the support get them every now and then instead of, say, having the AP go insta-clear them without a second thought.
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On September 25 2012 02:39 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 02:37 Requizen wrote:On September 25 2012 02:32 TheYango wrote:On September 25 2012 01:13 zulu_nation8 wrote:
pretty sure lots of teams do that, and I've never seen an AD in solo queue who gets mad when the support asks first before taking cs. Then why spend that gold on gp10 items? If you can get the gold you need from taking some lane/jungle farm whenever you need it, how is gp10 more useful for a support than for any of the other roles who don't buy them anymore? Because one wave for an item isn't the same as getting to farm a lane full time. An AD might be ok with letting you get some CS for a gp10, but if you say something like "hey, can I get the next 4-5 waves? I need Aegis/WotA/whatever)", you're going to be laughed at at best. Better to get enough so you can get a constant gold stream early, then try not to take any that he could get otherwise. By the time you have your gp10s, you're not going to be in lane full time anyway. Taking every other Wraith spawn is equivalent to gp10 gold, or alternatively, taking 1 creep wave every 4 minutes (which don't all have to be from your AD). I don't know why people are assuming this happens in laning phase. Almost none of the gold earn by gp10 items is earned during the laning phase.
So we should abandon our AD carry in bot lane, and go into midlane and steal their cs instead? Or even better, take the already farm starved jungler's wraiths?
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United States47024 Posts
On September 25 2012 02:41 wei2coolman wrote:
So we should abandon our AD carry in bot lane, and go into midlane and steal their cs instead? Or even better, take the already farm starved jungler's wraiths?
Do you regularly have laning phases that go that long? Do you not roam the map warding/oracle clearing after laning phase is over, and pass farmable lanes/jungle that you could take very quickly along the way?
Half the time, the AP takes your jungler's wraiths anyway after like the first 10 minutes, so it's more likely to be gold off your AP than your jungler.
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EPT
