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Simberto
Germany11519 Posts
On September 24 2012 22:57 Kickboxer wrote: Riot is out of their mind with stealthy tanky bursty assassins. Btw can we get an AP item with movespeed like PD has and a strong item with stacks like BT has? What's up with that lol? Lichbane is the item that fits your first demand. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On September 24 2012 22:57 Kickboxer wrote: Riot is out of their mind with stealthy tanky bursty assassins. Btw can we get an AP item with movespeed like PD has and a strong item with stacks like BT has? What's up with that lol? Would you really consider Kha'zix tanky though? From what I've seen, his base defenses aren't anything special and his heal is pretty minimal. Unlike Rengar's 15% self heal and pretty good resist steroid, a situational heal (only 160 and .5 AP scaling at max) and tactical stealth aren't really "tanky" by my definition. | ||
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thenexusp
United States3721 Posts
Most tops will just have to stay by their minions, and Yorick will pretty much never be isolated. | ||
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Praetorial
United States4241 Posts
He can look for wards without using Oracles, he can shred people's health, his passive lets him run in and out of bushes to win trades with huge damage increases and slows, and he has sustain. Rengar was a bad idea in retrospect. Khazakstan is even worse. | ||
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Zenithal
United States142 Posts
On September 24 2012 22:35 Cloud9157 wrote: If what is happening as he described in his post, third gp/10 seems perfectly fine to me. If I find myself with stolen kills or a lot of assists, I always grab a pick and just sit on it all game. You lose philo stone eventually, so that way you should have the same gold intake as you would with just philo+hog until shurleya's, but for the entire game. Oh hey look, gp10s again. Let's boil this down for the umpteen-millionth time. Pro-gp10 outlook: give decent to good early game stats. Some are super cost effective (Philo) others not so much (HoG). They're good if you're going to be sitting in lane and farming instead of ever fighting or playing aggressively, since they give good laning stats like health, AP, and regen. Once they pay themselves off, which happens often in passive/longer games, they're good. Anti-gp10 outlook: Bad to Horrid cost effectiveness outside of Philo. Take too long to pay themselves off, you can't trade in lane ever because the stats don't give enough to do so. Early game is too aggressive in most cases to ever be wothrwhile, only ever worth it if you're building something it builds out of later (DFG with Kage's or Bruta with Avarice). I find myself in group 1, but I agree with group 2. I get them on champs that I'm going to be passive with (Bankplank, for example, some pure farm junglers though it's rare to play them, mids with weak early games where I'm not going to fight anyway), but wouldn't get them on lanes where I'm going to be fighting all the time (Riven or Darius for example, though I'll occasionally get HoG on either if they're being pansies and I can't fight at all). --- Speaking of Riven, she's gotten kind of forgotten about recently, but a good one knocked me on my ass the other day and I remembered how strong she really is. Need to get her back in top lane again. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
Unclear right now as to which evolution to get first. QWE evolves are all crazy useful depending on what you're going for; it's most likely going to be E>Q>W though for evo points. Never R. As for the 12% on Q evolve, it ONLY works when the champ is isolated; and that includes minions. If they're in lane you're probably not going to get that extra damage on the Q, though Q is spammable/low CD/low mana cost anyway so meh. His jungling is absolutely retarded because you can either max W for ridiculous camp clearing ability and self-heal, or max Q for counterjungling exchange winning ability. (Interesting part of Q isolation passive is that it works on jungle creeps! If you kill the lizards that spawn with Blue buff first, for example, you get the isolation debuff on Big Golem for faster clearing.) | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On September 24 2012 22:59 Simberto wrote: Lichbane is the item that fits your first demand. I'd like to see a stacking item like BT for AP though. but i dunno how it'd work, isnt 2ap roughly 1 ad? so 80 bonus ap or something? | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On September 24 2012 23:05 WaveofShadow wrote: Having tried Kha'Zix on PBE, yeah he does seem pretty OP but I'll clear up a few 'misconceptions' I suppose. Unclear right now as to which evolution to get first. QWE evolves are all crazy useful depending on what you're going for; it's most likely going to be E>Q>W though for evo points. Never R. As for the 12% on Q evolve, it ONLY works when the champ is isolated; and that includes minions. If they're in lane you're probably not going to get that extra damage on the Q, though Q is spammable/low CD/low mana cost anyway so meh. His jungling is absolutely retarded because you can either max W for ridiculous camp clearing ability and self-heal, or max Q for counterjungling exchange winning ability. (Interesting part of Q isolation passive is that it works on jungle creeps! If you kill the lizards that spawn with Blue buff first, for example, you get the isolation debuff on Big Golem for faster clearing.) When jungling I think evolving Q first will often be preferable to evolving E. While the extra range on E is useful, the reset won't come into play in the vast majority of ganks. Meanwhile, 90% of ganks will involve isolated targets, and buff/dragon control/invasion will greatly benefit from the extra damage. I'm not sold on evolving W being better than evolving R. That late in the game it's going to depend a lot on the situation. The one thing I'm sure of is that Oracle's will be important. So long as you can see Kha'zix he can't gain his passive, so his ultimate is almost completely countered by it. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On September 24 2012 23:54 Seuss wrote: When jungling I think evolving Q first will often be preferable to evolving E. While the extra range on E is useful, the reset won't come into play in the vast majority of ganks. Meanwhile, 90% of ganks will involve isolated targets, and buff/dragon control/invasion will greatly benefit from the extra damage. I'm not sold on evolving W being better than evolving R. That late in the game it's going to depend a lot on the situation. The one thing I'm sure of is that Oracle's will be important. So long as you can see Kha'zix he can't gain his passive, so his ultimate is almost completely countered by it. Really good point about Oracle, I hadn't thought of that. As for evolving W, the main selling point I think is the ranged slow which can prove pretty useful, though evolved E-->passive slow essentially serves the same purpose. I wasn't even considering the reset when I figured E first; the gap closer is pretty massive. Q damage is pretty crazy I agree, but you'll never get that Q damage off in a gank unless the gankee is in the jungle early; minions prevent the Q passive. I can't remember if Tower prevents it though; if it doesn't that may alone make it worth it for diving. I hadn't thought about Q for faster Dragon/Baron though, that's pretty huge. Also I hope they fix the particle on regular Khaz skin to make it as obvious as it is on Mecha. It really seems as though Khaz will work optimally in jungle, but what are thoughts as to his laning ability/whether it's worth it? Seems if you can actually make good use of isolation trades, top will work. Mid seems unlikely... | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On September 24 2012 23:05 arb wrote: I'd like to see a stacking item like BT for AP though. but i dunno how it'd work, isnt 2ap roughly 1 ad? so 80 bonus ap or something? Go back to good old Mejai's and farm champs instead of minions. Bloodthirster is fairly consistent now that you don't lose all your stacks at once, and it stacks rather quickly. It's not all that different from normal items anymore. And then of course there is Rageblade. | ||
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Shiv.
3534 Posts
On September 24 2012 22:57 Kickboxer wrote: Riot is out of their mind with stealthy tanky bursty assassins. Btw can we get an AP item with movespeed like PD has and a strong item with stacks like BT has? What's up with that lol? LATE TO THE PARTY, NEVERMIND THIS POST. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On September 24 2012 19:17 TheYango wrote: Someday people will realize that actually letting support have a creep wave now and then, or letting them clear Wraiths when they're otherwise doing nothing is more effective than buying worthless items. Or people can continue to pretend banking 500 gold toward their next item that they're not going to spend for another 5-10 minutes is more effective than letting a support have that gold now for immediate wards. Then again, it took like 5 years for the whole "support farm" thing to get off the ground in DotA, so I guess I shouldn't hold my breath for it. people 2 greedy imo. I pretty much steal like 10 cs, somewhat early on just to get the gp10 advantage, and then just win ward wars the rest of the lane, and it semi snowballs from there, but it really depends, because sometimes that 10 cs, can end up biting your ad carry in the ass when he loses in a dblade advantage, early in the game. the best time to give support some cs is after a kill, or you can force enemy bot lane back to base, and need to shove the lane. | ||
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Glaceau
Wales333 Posts
On September 24 2012 23:04 Zenithal wrote: Oh hey look, gp10s again. Let's boil this down for the umpteen-millionth time. Pro-gp10 outlook: give decent to good early game stats. Some are super cost effective (Philo) others not so much (HoG). They're good if you're going to be sitting in lane and farming instead of ever fighting or playing aggressively, since they give good laning stats like health, AP, and regen. Once they pay themselves off, which happens often in passive/longer games, they're good. Anti-gp10 outlook: Bad to Horrid cost effectiveness outside of Philo. Take too long to pay themselves off, you can't trade in lane ever because the stats don't give enough to do so. Early game is too aggressive in most cases to ever be wothrwhile, only ever worth it if you're building something it builds out of later (DFG with Kage's or Bruta with Avarice). I find myself in group 1, but I agree with group 2. I get them on champs that I'm going to be passive with (Bankplank, for example, some pure farm junglers though it's rare to play them, mids with weak early games where I'm not going to fight anyway), but wouldn't get them on lanes where I'm going to be fighting all the time (Riven or Darius for example, though I'll occasionally get HoG on either if they're being pansies and I can't fight at all). --- Speaking of Riven, she's gotten kind of forgotten about recently, but a good one knocked me on my ass the other day and I remembered how strong she really is. Need to get her back in top lane again. I think the reason riven has fallen out of favor in top lane, especially for competitive play, is that she really needs to snowball to be useful and her laning is subpar now. Your job is basically just to survive top lane in most lanes until you get your BT and GA and start getting strong. So with her now weak laning and her need to snowball she is a pretty contradictory character, the only way to make her work is camping top lane which is already expected anyway so it doesnt work that well. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On September 25 2012 00:37 Glaceau wrote: I think the reason riven has fallen out of favor in top lane, especially for competitive play, is that she really needs to snowball to be useful and her laning is subpar now. Your job is basically just to survive top lane in most lanes until you get your BT and GA and start getting strong. So with her now weak laning and her need to snowball she is a pretty contradictory character, the only way to make her work is camping top lane which is already expected anyway so it doesnt work that well. ?? I know I haven't played as or against Riven in a while, but what is weak about her laning? They nerfed her base health regen? She still has abusively high damage output, no mana, and can escape from ganks like nobody's business. I don't think she even has many bad matchups aside from maybe a couple ranged champions (I can see Jayce being tough, Teemo is annoying, etc). | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On September 25 2012 01:01 kongoline wrote: riven never was popular amongst the pros, she was a pub stomper but rarely seen in tournaments nah, there was a period of time where riven jungle, and top was somewhat popular. she was never really first ban/first pick, but she definitely saw her share of games in tourneys. meh, her real weakness is the long ass wait time between 2dblade and BT. There's such a huge jump between that power curve, and if she gets camped top, that delay on BT will hurt her extremely hard throughout the entire game. She also doesn't get enough farm in jungle to afford BT in a timely manner, unless she gets kills, which is a big risk. You could however go for a more linear powercurve build, that allows for much stronger mid game, but sacrificing some lategame power, by getting hexdrinker+frozenmallet. also with meta shift, where 2v1 lane is somewhat common in tourney play, riven is pretty weak in 1v2 situation, so her only viability is jungler, and teams just seem to favor cc heavy, tanky ass utility junglers, over carry-type-junglers. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
On September 25 2012 01:01 kongoline wrote: riven never was popular amongst the pros, she was a pub stomper but rarely seen in tournaments I don't see how Riven is a pubstomper in any way... It's a solid character with a strong laning phase, very good mid-game presence, AoE, CC, mobility, objective potential. As long as she gets her BT in a timely manner she'll have a useful mid-game, which is not «snowballing» at all. The only problem with Riven is that not a single pro is good at her and took the time needed to be able to play the character at very high level. Even though she is a very strong pick against a lot of popular champs atm (Yorick comes to mind, he gets WRECKED by Riven). | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
On September 25 2012 00:47 Requizen wrote: ?? I know I haven't played as or against Riven in a while, but what is weak about her laning? They nerfed her base health regen? She still has abusively high damage output, no mana, and can escape from ganks like nobody's business. I don't think she even has many bad matchups aside from maybe a couple ranged champions (I can see Jayce being tough, Teemo is annoying, etc). no sustain cant 1v2 | ||
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