On September 24 2012 17:28 zulu_nation8 wrote: you need gp10 for gold income, cant ever get kindlem to early shurelia unless youre skarner. You get items to snowball your advantage, not to prep for what's happening 20min from now.
And spending 475 gold in order to have TWO more Qs a minute equals snowballing? Well, I have no clue what I'm talking about and you are the high elo guy, but at my level of play and for my own personal preferences, I would always rather get a Ruby for a HoG or a Kindlegem rather than mananip. The CDR lets you powerchord more frequently as well as have your ult up faster, and who is able to run from Shurelias -> R in lane? Also, isn't getting GP10 items the epitome of prepping for what's happening 20 minutes from now?
Is Riot crazy? 280 base + 2.4 bonus AD ratio + 12% missing health.... on an ability with 3.5 seconds cooldown????
Yep they are. Nasus is 20-40 mana,8->4 secs, Pantheon spears are 4 sec CD, 45 mana.
He'll basically melee you for as much as a pantheon spear, for half the mana cost on slightly lower cooldown. There needs to be a tradeoff either for CD or damage at early levels or else he'll zone people too hard because he can chase and keep chasing because his Q is always off cooldown. Also the mana cost could stand to go up. Just look at Skarner for the period of time where his Q basically cost nothing(although granted, mana/s for Q spam is probably higher than Kha'zix, even when it cost nothing).
They did get the mana cost on his spikes right though, it's a very, very expensive skill to be maxing only for the healing.
Is Riot crazy? 280 base + 2.4 bonus AD ratio + 12% missing health.... on an ability with 3.5 seconds cooldown????
Assuming he's ganking with his passive up and he's level 18 it'd do: 220 + .5 AP ratio + 280 + 2.4 bonus AD + 12% missing health to an isolated enemy.
And a 35% slow. It's also going to be horrible to itemize against him as his passive does magic damage and everything else physical.
Maybe after Syndra they wanted another pubstomp champion, because Syndra sold worse than Rengar due to her poor performance ingame? Just some speculation.
Sounds like an attempt to counter to split pushing types, I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the Shen pushing a tower with the Alien running around lategame but that's just my 5 am thought process I could be entirely wrong here.
you start out with faerie charm so it's 295 gold. You're not actually snowballing your advantage in bot lane by getting ruby crystal if you're already stronger and zoning, a poke support does not engage in full trades from 100 to 0 but rather pokes the enemy down hence the need for mana regen. You get a ruby crystal if you're trading all in with say for example taric, then in which case you can tank a little more creeps and survive a little longer when you actually go for the kill. The CDR is useless if you're out of mana. Getting GP10 is the safest way to snowball and make sure you have gold income 20min from now. Rushing shurelia on a support is useless for laning, why would you ever need a speed boost to R someone whos in lane?
I'm talking about mana manipulator on Sona only btw.
Is Riot crazy? 280 base + 2.4 bonus AD ratio + 12% missing health.... on an ability with 3.5 seconds cooldown????
Assuming he's ganking with his passive up and he's level 18 it'd do: 220 + .5 AP ratio + 280 + 2.4 bonus AD + 12% missing health to an isolated enemy.
And a 35% slow. It's also going to be horrible to itemize against him as his passive does magic damage and everything else physical.
Maybe after Syndra they wanted another pubstomp champion, because Syndra sold worse than Rengar due to her poor performance ingame? Just some speculation.
If you get his ult evolution point you'll be able to hit someone with your passive four times in the course of an exchange lol. I don't know how strong he'll be but I'm going to go ahead and assume that he'll likely be able to beat just about any champion in a straight 1v1. Unless they have oracles or some other form of true sight.
On September 24 2012 17:28 zulu_nation8 wrote: you need gp10 for gold income, cant ever get kindlem to early shurelia unless youre skarner. You get items to snowball your advantage, not to prep for what's happening 20min from now.
sona is clearly my best champion, iam very bad though, playing on 1.5k in the other hand I have a w/l of 64% on 120 games on her.
I'am very tempted to get philo on her early like every game, but most of the time it is a suboptimal choice. HP regen is like the worst stat on sona against most lanes. Manaregen and raw HP are the things you really really need to win or get even in lanes. You can get away with rushing philo sometimes in lane when you get a huge advantage and they cannot burst you, but then chances are their ap carry will just 1 shot you during midgame engagements. Sona is not a very good disengagement support like janna and soraka are, you need to poke with Q as much as you can squeeze in during engagements and her ult is a better initiation tool than a disenagement tool as you want to hit as many poeple as possible with it, so you are prone to AoE and burst damage. Having a good chunk of HP along with manaregen is what makes you do that. I still make philo after I have at least 1 ruby. Rubys can be built into the three best items on her: shureilas, aegis and shroud. Shroud is like the best lategame item on sona because it is very efficient for raw HP manaregen and CDR which are your prefered stats. I even get it over aegis along with shureilas sometimes as you can only finish 2 items anyways in 99% of the games.
On September 24 2012 17:28 zulu_nation8 wrote: you need gp10 for gold income, cant ever get kindlem to early shurelia unless youre skarner. You get items to snowball your advantage, not to prep for what's happening 20min from now.
sona is clearly my best champion, iam very bad though, playing on 1.5k in the other hand I have a w/l of 64% on 120 games on her.
I'am very tempted to get philo on her early like every game, but most of the time it is a suboptimal choice. HP regen is like the worst stat on sona against most lanes. Manaregen and raw HP are the things you really really need to win or get even in lanes. You can get away with rushing philo sometimes in lane when you get a huge advantage and they cannot burst you, but then chances are their ap carry will just 1 shot you during midgame engagements. Sona is not a very good disengagement support like janna and soraka are, you need to poke with Q as much as you can squeeze in during engagements and her ult is a better initiation tool than a disenagement tool as you want to hit as many poeple as possible with it, so you are prone to AoE and burst damage. Having a good chunk of HP along with manaregen is what makes you do that. I still make philo after I have at least 1 ruby. Rubys can be built into the three best items on her: shureilas, aegis and shroud. Shroud is like the best lategame item on sona because it is very efficient for raw HP manaregen and CDR which are your prefered stats. I even get it over aegis along with shureilas sometimes as you can only finish 2 items anyways in 99% of the games.
What do you think of Chalice/Stark's on Sona?
Oh and a lot of junglers get Aegis first these days (Many Lee, Shen, Shyvana, Mundo do it), so you can afford to buy something else as support. But you do not get any GP/10? Or do you get HoG/Pick?
Is Riot crazy? 280 base + 2.4 bonus AD ratio + 12% missing health.... on an ability with 3.5 seconds cooldown????
Assuming he's ganking with his passive up and he's level 18 it'd do: 220 + .5 AP ratio + 280 + 2.4 bonus AD + 12% missing health to an isolated enemy.
And a 35% slow. It's also going to be horrible to itemize against him as his passive does magic damage and everything else physical.
Maybe after Syndra they wanted another pubstomp champion, because Syndra sold worse than Rengar due to her poor performance ingame? Just some speculation.
If you get his ult evolution point you'll be able to hit someone with your passive four times in the course of an exchange lol. I don't know how strong he'll be but I'm going to go ahead and assume that he'll likely be able to beat just about any champion in a straight 1v1. Unless they have oracles or some other form of true sight.
Does isolated mean that you need an allied unit within say 400 range, or does it mean you need a champion? If it's champion, he can outtrade almost everybody in lane just with Q, and passive procs. Otherwise I'd say the optimal way to deal with him is probably to push so he won't get the isolation bonus, especially since his W is actually pretty expensive to use just on wave clear/healing.
Actually, if isolated means allied unit, Yorick would be an insanely hard counter. In 1v1 he'll basically never be isolated, AND khazix doesn't have a good way outside bushes to mitigate damage, and maxing W is very, very heavy on mana, in addition to not really being efficient at healing/mana, although it is efficient in terms of time
On September 24 2012 17:48 zulu_nation8 wrote: you start out with faerie charm so it's 295 gold. You're not actually snowballing your advantage in bot lane by getting ruby crystal if you're already stronger and zoning, a poke support does not engage in full trades from 100 to 0 but rather pokes the enemy down hence the need for mana regen. You get a ruby crystal if you're trading all in with say for example taric, then in which case you can tank a little more creeps and survive a little longer when you actually go for the kill. The CDR is useless if you're out of mana. Getting GP10 is the safest way to snowball and make sure you have gold income 20min from now. Rushing shurelia on a support is useless for laning, why would you ever need a speed boost to R someone whos in lane?
I'm talking about mana manipulator on Sona only btw.
If GP10 is the safest way to snowball, why use that first faerie charm for Nip instead of Philo? I am aware how poke lanes work, but the moment their jungler comes, I will be happy to have a bunch of HP. I will also be happy to have more HP whenever they decide to engage on us as Sona is fairly squishy as it is. Same situation when laning phase ends, or when earlyish dragon fights happen. Of course the CDR is useless if you are out of mana, but Mananip won't save you from running OOM if you mindlessly spam and the CDR is more useful in any situation where you actually have mana. Also, you never adressed the fact that laning phase is inevitably going to end, rendering Mananip relatively useless, at least in comparison to what you could have (parts of Shurelias / Zeke's / Aegis). And I would want a speedboost to R people in lane because they generally don't stand still if a Sona comes running towards them. Not that I actually build Shurelias in lane, I just think if people crave sustain so much, it's still better than getting mananip.
I am just trying to understand your reasoning, but I don't see how 2 more spells a minute will help you snowball a lane. Maybe it's a concept I can't grasp because at my Elo people don't play champions to their limits, I don't know.
Mana Manipulator early on, doesn't allow for the early gp10 you need to keep ahead in the wards war in botlane. Mana manipulator leads to dead itemization. If your ad carry wants mana to spam, because he's bad at mana management, 1 mana pot = 35 gold, and 100 mana in15 seconds. Why mana manipulator again?
On September 24 2012 18:18 wei2coolman wrote: Mana Manipulator early on, doesn't allow for the early gp10 you need to keep ahead in the wards war in botlane. Mana manipulator leads to dead itemization. If your ad carry wants mana to spam, because he's bad at mana management, 1 mana pot = 35 gold, and 100 mana in15 seconds. Why mana manipulator again?
Tbh there aren't all that many AD's who can effectively do guaranteed damage with their mana anyway. As Sona I feel your own mana has way more impact. Being able to spam Q and W will have a giant influence on the laning, your AD getting 1 more poke off doesn't matter that much, when AD's are mainly there for their autoattacks anyway. It's why I prefer philo/chalice on Sona. More manaregen for yourself and both build into better items imo. If you eventually get to finish Athene's on Sona it's really strong.
The only ADs i even get OOM on is Koggles if I have to lane really passively (need to use W everytime it's up), and Sivir if I whiff shields.
It really depends on the laning phase though, or how the game flow is. But I feel much more comfortable getting philo+hog, into chalice, then finishing whatever item next (usually reverie).
sometimes laning phases are pretty aggressive, usually get kills, back, or shove lanes than backing, I'll delay getting chalice until after first big support item. but if lane phases are really extended, I either get 3rd gp10, or the chalice after hog.
On September 24 2012 18:18 wei2coolman wrote: If your ad carry wants mana to spam, because he's bad at mana management...
I agree that mana manipulator is a bad choice. However having more mana does more than just cover a supposed weakness in mana management like your are implying. No one says anivia should not build mana and just manage her mana better and its the same with almost everyone else just less dramatic.
On September 24 2012 18:18 wei2coolman wrote: If your ad carry wants mana to spam, because he's bad at mana management...
I agree that mana manipulator is a bad choice. However having more mana does more than just cover a supposed weakness in mana management like your are implying. No one says anivia should not build mana and just manage her mana better and its the same with almost everyone else just less dramatic.
It's actually a whole different story. Anivia's base damage is so ridiculously high that she can afford not to build much damage till later in the game. Her R, on the meanwhile, drains insane amounts of mana, and you need it for pushing and antipushing. Getting mana and manaregen on Anivia is the most efficient thing to do - and I still couldn't be convinced it's the same with Sona, especially since bly sort of backed out of the discussion.
It still boggles my mind that teams would rather make supports buy items that have no practical usefulness/efficiency rather than let them get 1-2 creeps a minute (or equivalently, a creep wave every 4 minutes, or a jungle camp every 2).
On September 24 2012 18:18 wei2coolman wrote: If your ad carry wants mana to spam, because he's bad at mana management...
I agree that mana manipulator is a bad choice. However having more mana does more than just cover a supposed weakness in mana management like your are implying. No one says anivia should not build mana and just manage her mana better and its the same with almost everyone else just less dramatic.
It's actually a whole different story. Anivia's base damage is so ridiculously high that she can afford not to build much damage till later in the game. Her R, on the meanwhile, drains insane amounts of mana, and you need it for pushing and antipushing. Getting mana and manaregen on Anivia is the most efficient thing to do - and I still couldn't be convinced it's the same with Sona, especially since bly sort of backed out of the discussion.
Anivia can combo squishier mids with 2 E's ult, Q, a well placed wall, a couple autos and ignite with zero itemized AP up til the low double digit levels if they don't have flash up. With blue you can do the whole combo in about 4 seconds. Not many other mids can claim to be able to do the same thing with no AP items.
EPT
