|
On August 23 2012 02:55 wei2coolman wrote:
Whoa guys, what I meant to say, is if she' gets counter picked, her laning phase is pretty rough.
Not to mention, her lane can get camped pretty easily, especially since riven usually calls for playing aggressive. All her 'getting away' abilities, are also offensive abilities, so upon using them she can get caught out pretty hard.
Wait, you can counterpick against Riven?
My experience with Riven is that she can basically crush almost any lane. Her problem is not with her laning phase, but her late game.
|
On August 23 2012 02:48 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 02:33 barbsq wrote:On August 23 2012 02:32 wei2coolman wrote:On August 23 2012 02:26 Feartheguru wrote:
People barely play Riven top anymore, why so many people think she's OP? So below 50% win rate, never seen in major tournies, 12% representation (about avg) but since a lead designer thinks she's OP everyone jump on the bandwagon? She was really good after the patch after her initial release. Her top has been hurt pretty hard with the introduction of new champions, along with some balance changes. She just has a tough time against a lot of champions top now. She's still ridiculously strong though, her late game is ridic. 6-item riven is pretty stupid strong. Her weakness right now is her laning phase. riven's laning phase is by no means weak. edit: to be a little more clear, there are no champions that can convincingly beat a riven who maxes her shield first. There are some that have the potential to maybe get a 10-20 cs lead on her, but none that can actually shut her down completely. Her sheer mobility and free, AD scaling shield make it so she can lane against virtually anybody. If she's maxing shield first you'll get more than a 10-20 cs lead, she wont do any damage so you have no fear of dying to her at all
let me put it this way. A shield-maxing riven can fight toe-to-toe with a pantheon.
edit: also, to make my stance a little more clear, yes, you can gank riven, but she is 100% not an ezmode gank top.
|
On August 23 2012 03:00 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 02:55 wei2coolman wrote:
Whoa guys, what I meant to say, is if she' gets counter picked, her laning phase is pretty rough.
Not to mention, her lane can get camped pretty easily, especially since riven usually calls for playing aggressive. All her 'getting away' abilities, are also offensive abilities, so upon using them she can get caught out pretty hard. Wait, you can counterpick against Riven? My experience with Riven is that she can basically crush almost any lane. Her problem is not with her laning phase, but her late game.
Not counterpick, but give her a hard time. Teemo, kayle, darius, jax are candidates.
|
Ok bitches i figured out how to play rengar.
rush 2-3 dorans blades for lane, farm and split push, dont be aggressive much since pretty much EVERYONE wins in a sustained duel just harass. max e then w or q idc just max e first it's op for kiting, harassing and farming. push constantly, you can take towers fast as hell with combo. after d blades get the tooth thing at around level 10, or whenever it gives more ad than pickaxe. after that get triforce and then ghostblade, keep pushing top and two shotting towers. once you farm up all that shit buy defensive items after and just rape their carries, you one shot squishies with your qqq combo then rip their ass apart with ghostblade and sheen procs and crits and shit, then they're slowed and you just rape them.
|
On August 23 2012 03:02 Deltablazy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 03:00 Sufficiency wrote:On August 23 2012 02:55 wei2coolman wrote:
Whoa guys, what I meant to say, is if she' gets counter picked, her laning phase is pretty rough.
Not to mention, her lane can get camped pretty easily, especially since riven usually calls for playing aggressive. All her 'getting away' abilities, are also offensive abilities, so upon using them she can get caught out pretty hard. Wait, you can counterpick against Riven? My experience with Riven is that she can basically crush almost any lane. Her problem is not with her laning phase, but her late game. Not counterpick, but give her a hard time. Teemo, kayle, darius, jax are candidates.
Jax doesn't do much vs. Riven honestly. If the riven is good she'll just Q towards you when you farm, then stun and then E away which absorbs a lot of the damage from your jump + w.
|
irelia is very good vs riven
|
On August 23 2012 03:04 zulu_nation8 wrote:
irelia is very good vs riven
Agreed its just a bit tough in the early levels, past that point irelia takes the upper hand
|
On August 23 2012 02:42 Deltablazy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 02:40 barbsq wrote:On August 23 2012 02:35 Deltablazy wrote:On August 23 2012 02:33 barbsq wrote:On August 23 2012 02:32 wei2coolman wrote:On August 23 2012 02:26 Feartheguru wrote:
People barely play Riven top anymore, why so many people think she's OP? So below 50% win rate, never seen in major tournies, 12% representation (about avg) but since a lead designer thinks she's OP everyone jump on the bandwagon? She was really good after the patch after her initial release. Her top has been hurt pretty hard with the introduction of new champions, along with some balance changes. She just has a tough time against a lot of champions top now. She's still ridiculously strong though, her late game is ridic. 6-item riven is pretty stupid strong. Her weakness right now is her laning phase. riven's laning phase is by no means weak. It's weak when the game starts. No ward to protect from gank, Q+E not available, aoe skills causing lane to push. You either end up pushing and getting ganked, or playing safe and falling in cs. But as soon as you get a ward, q and e, the weakness is gone. most rivens open either q or e (mostly q), and riven's retarded passive makes it so she can easily trade favorably @ lvl 1 with the majority of champions. Also, just q on its own and flash can escape just about any gank, unless you are autoing their tower at lvl 1. I never said she loses trades. I said she's vulnerable when she doesn't have both Q and E, which is exactly when lv2 ganks occur. Flash and Q doesn't always save you from a gank, you'll be exhausted and ignited, with no shield. As soon as riven is lv 2, she's going to win lane.
Wait what? You don't have Q and E at level 2? You have at least one of the two at level 1, plus flash, plus if you're expecting a level 2 gank you shouldn't be playing that far out in the first place. It's ok to miss 2-3 cs to not get rocked by a level 2 gank. If you're simply too far for the LANER to close onto you, you'll survive. If you're sure you're getting ganked, you can easily position yourself such that you won't even take damage or use flash to get away from the jungler - your Q generates as much distance as most jungler gapclosers can handle (even Alistar) so if you aren't so close that they can gapclose onto you right from out of vision, you can keep the distance (and if it's a skillshot jungler like Lee, save a charge of Q to ensure dodging the projectile.)
|
Irelia crushes Riven super hard. It's like one of the easiest matchups for Irelia. Malphite beats Riven as well. Olaf is a skill matchup, and the same for Gangplank although I think it's harder for Riven than Gangplank.
But seriously Irelia >>>>>>>>>>>>. Riven so badly that it isn't even funny.
|
Doesn't Singed do really well vs Riven as well?
You just open will a full page of armor and fling her to choke on your poison when she goes in to cs.
|
Yeah, Irelia v riven is my preferred choice vs riven. Not only that, but if you're feeling dirty as irelia you can show up to lane with armor quints and cloth5 and just outtrade a boots-first riven even at the early levels.
Gangplank gets crushed by Riven though. Put a point in E at 1 and 3, and if he's trying to Q you he's massively wasting mana. You then farm in his face and force him to Q for his CS or take no CS at all.
|
Ok, random question time from a game last night. We got a good gank from Udyr as Zil/Cait bot, killing both Ez and Panth. Udyr proceeds to push the lane, ping the tower, and we kill it at 5 minutes into the game. I tried to convince them otherwise, but whatever. I was ok since I got FB and an assist, and had higher farm as it was. So two parts:
1) Is this ever a good idea, to take out the tower that early into the game? If so, what circumstances?
2) What should I have done? I did a bit of farming, but they just let it push past the river and it got a bit difficult to watch out for the jungler. I ended up roaming and taking jungle camps.
|
Skarnold Trump just showed up on the spectator thing, if anyone is interested 
|
In my experience kennen also counters riven pretty hard in lane.
throw star whenever she tries to kill minion. Throw bigger star every 5th attack, follow with immediate W.
lightning shuriken whenever you can.
if she goes in on you, lightning rush away.
|
On August 23 2012 03:04 zulu_nation8 wrote:
irelia is very good vs riven
That's kinda the problem that we were discussing before the whole riven thing kinda went out of control (i will take my fair share of responsibility, lol). Both of those champs have a very similar playstyle imo, being that they both have laning phases where very few, if any, champs can properly exploit any of their weakness (to the point of preventing their lategame power) have mobility, gank resistance, and boatloads of free dmg, and then riven has her shield and irelia has her healing. Are they exactly the same? No, of course not, but they seem to have similar design philosophies, and that was kinda what that post was talking about, and how it relates to the overall problem with top lane in which you have a champion that is strong mid + lategame (either via utility, or straight dmg, or both) that you simply cannot stop, barring a huge skill differential(which is a problem that i think is overstated, but i agree it's there to some extent).
|
I am pretty sure that killing towers early is pretty popular in the competitive meta atm, so it is not per se a bad idea. However, you need enough team consistency to be able to make something out of this advantage, for example by pushing other turrets or wrecking havoc in their jungle. As a singular action, it is problematic in a soloqueue game, it would probably be much better to use that double kill advantage to zone the enemy hard for some time.
The viability of killing that early turret is completely depending on you being able to do something useful on the rest of the map if the enemy chose too freeze the lane far in their backyard.
|
On August 23 2012 00:21 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 23:56 Requizen wrote:On August 22 2012 23:48 Nos- wrote:
LoL also has the stigma of being an easier game within the DotA community, and we all know how that can divide people from BW/SC2. It's dumb in both communities. While LoL has a much lower skill floor and is easier for new people to get into, the difference in the skill ceilings doesn't really matter. DotA is slightly mechanically harder and less forgiving, but in the end it's rarely mechanical skill that determines a win and more play/strategy that does. There are some exceptions (DL's amazing control, for instance, timing Smites, etc), but even the team with worse mechanics can win by a large margin via counterpicking, teamcomp, and map control. Like people complaining about SC2 being easier mechanically than BW, ~80% of victory comes from out-playing your opponent, not whether you have better micro than him. I don't really get why gaming communities are so obsessed with whether or not a game is more mechanically demanding or not. The reason I stopped playing SC2 within a few months isn't because I thought it was too mechancally easy compared to BW. I stopped playing it because it was really boring for me, and that's really the only big reason.
Yeah, I've always found this argument ridiculous.
I'd say Hockey is a much more mechanically difficult game than Soccer for example, but that doesn't mean hockey is the defacto better sport.
|
Caitlyn in particular loves taking towers early. It just requires different follow-up play than the typcial "make lane phase last as long as possible" play, where you're leaving the tower alive.
Things you can do to follow it up:
Warding the buffcamp and other entrances to your third of the map (it's the second-turret equivalent of a tribush ward) and other deep wards, and with this vision you can do all sorts of things:
- Take small jungle camps to fill in the lanefarm you might be passing up (theirs or yours, depending on safety)
- roam mid and put some damage on their mid turret
- secure an early dragon and even more teamwide gold, etc because you're leaving their bot lane very far from dragon when you shove
- help steal red/bluebuff with your ward & map control
If/When they inevitably push the lane back, you can also freeze their extra-large creepwave near your turret and force them to basically play their lane phase with no turret to escape to - opening them up to all sorts of aggressive play against an opponent who is more fed than they are.
Freeze lane and tell your support to roam (you're relatively safe since they have to extend so far if they want to do anything aggressive to you 1v2
|
On August 23 2012 03:25 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 00:21 koreasilver wrote:On August 22 2012 23:56 Requizen wrote:On August 22 2012 23:48 Nos- wrote:
LoL also has the stigma of being an easier game within the DotA community, and we all know how that can divide people from BW/SC2. It's dumb in both communities. While LoL has a much lower skill floor and is easier for new people to get into, the difference in the skill ceilings doesn't really matter. DotA is slightly mechanically harder and less forgiving, but in the end it's rarely mechanical skill that determines a win and more play/strategy that does. There are some exceptions (DL's amazing control, for instance, timing Smites, etc), but even the team with worse mechanics can win by a large margin via counterpicking, teamcomp, and map control. Like people complaining about SC2 being easier mechanically than BW, ~80% of victory comes from out-playing your opponent, not whether you have better micro than him. I don't really get why gaming communities are so obsessed with whether or not a game is more mechanically demanding or not. The reason I stopped playing SC2 within a few months isn't because I thought it was too mechancally easy compared to BW. I stopped playing it because it was really boring for me, and that's really the only big reason. Yeah, I've always found this argument ridiculous. I'd say Hockey is a much more mechanically difficult game than Soccer for example, but that doesn't mean hockey is the defacto better sport.
Especially if you take it too an extreme. If complicated mechanics are good for a game, why are there no mechanically absurdly complex games, which then would be superior to everything else? Like, you always have to run on your hands, over a field spiked with needles, and juggle 5 balls with your feet while playing the game. The more absurd and complex the rules are, the better, since that increases the difficulty of the game.
|
On August 23 2012 03:15 sylverfyre wrote:
Wait what? You don't have Q and E at level 2? You have at least one of the two at level 1, plus flash, plus if you're expecting a level 2 gank you shouldn't be playing that far out in the first place. It's ok to miss 2-3 cs to not get rocked by a level 2 gank. If you're simply too far for the LANER to close onto you, you'll survive. If you're sure you're getting ganked, you can easily position yourself such that you won't even take damage or use flash to get away from the jungler - your Q generates as much distance as most jungler gapclosers can handle (even Alistar) so if you aren't so close that they can gapclose onto you right from out of vision, you can keep the distance (and if it's a skillshot jungler like Lee, save a charge of Q to ensure dodging the projectile.)
I didn't know that when you hear lv 2 ganks, you assume the laners are also lv 2, I thought it was common knowledge that the jungler ganks right after clearing red buff/blue buff.
And there are also cool stories where the enemy jungler is content with waiting 1 or 2 minutes to get his gank. Yes you have you Q and E in those situations, but by that time you will be slightly pushed. You dont know that the jungler is camping top to gank you and either your Q or E is on cooldown, most likely Q. Suddenly you dont have that much distance coverage even with flash.
You cant always predict the jungler's actions until your first back, and you cant forever play safe, because you're expected to play aggressive as riven and have your Q on CD from harrassing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
