|
On August 23 2012 01:54 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 01:23 Slayer91 wrote:
Problems with ghostblade:
-Armour pen is easily outscaled by getting armour, meaning you generally want to get it for killing squishies.
-The proc feels like it should be used for training on a squishy champion because you have to constantly attack and can't get stunned/kited if you want to make use of it.
meanwhile
-Crit is a stat that is only good if you attack a lot and have lots of it//AD//
-Cooldown reduction is a stat that works well with more cooldown reduction and long fights
Seems like it's a weird item. The guys who want to burst people want the proc and the armour pen and the guys who want more of a longer fight want crit and CDR both want the AD so it feels like if you want more sustained damage you get wits//frozen heart or something and if you want burst you go for trinity force. The item just lacks clear definition for me.
The only place where the design makes ends meet is with champions like trynd and master yi and fiora who I suppose are designed to build lots of damage but still be bursting squishies. ( I guess you can play them to clean up tanks but there are lots of ADs to do that better)
Oh, and olaf, he can use the ult and dive squishies with just a ghostblade for damage pretty effectively. Olaf still doesn't REALLY use the crit though. Meh. TBH I think Ghostblade as an upgrade is just meh. Bruta is a practically useful item for a lot of champions, it's just that more than half the cost of upgrading to Ghostblade is spent on Avarice Blade, and most of the of guys that want Bruta don't really care for the crit that badly. I get Bruta on a lot of people, but it generally stays as Bruta until I have to choose between upgrading it or selling something. Also, I don't know how people say Kindlegem doesn't build into anything for Rengar. A Champ with a 15% max HP heal on a moderate CD can definitely make use of Spirit Visage.
I think it's important to zero in on the "most of the champions" part of your argument. While an item's general value may be low because most champions can't use it effectively, for an individual champion that item's value can be very high (SEE: Pre-nerf Gunblade on Akali). While most bruisers may not care for the crit, a bruiser like Rengar who heavily relies on auto-attacking for damage won't suffer for having invested in it.
You can definitely sit on the Brutalizer while getting other important items though (e.g. Necklace, Phage, Aegis, Kindlegem).
In other news, Rengar's winrate is apparently only 37% (according to Elobuff). For all the furor over his potential instakill level 1 combo, he apparently isn't banworthy (unless you're trying to prevent your team from taking him). 93% of the time he's being played as a jungler, which might have something to do with it.
|
People barely play Riven top anymore, why so many people think she's OP? So below 50% win rate, never seen in major tournies, 12% representation (about avg) but since a lead designer thinks she's OP everyone jump on the bandwagon?
|
On August 23 2012 02:26 Feartheguru wrote:
People barely play Riven top anymore, why so many people think she's OP? So below 50% win rate, never seen in major tournies, 12% representation (about avg) but since a lead designer thinks she's OP everyone jump on the bandwagon?
i think it's about how stupid it is to lane against her. Kinda like how stupid it is to lane against irelia, or nunu, or yorick, or vlad, or chogath, or malphite, or rumble, or gangplank.
|
On August 23 2012 02:26 Feartheguru wrote:
People barely play Riven top anymore, why so many people think she's OP? So below 50% win rate, never seen in major tournies, 12% representation (about avg) but since a lead designer thinks she's OP everyone jump on the bandwagon?
I think he was referring to top lane being poorly designed in general and just put riven as the poster child for it, but it definitely applies to other champions too like irelia
|
On August 23 2012 02:26 Feartheguru wrote:
People barely play Riven top anymore, why so many people think she's OP? So below 50% win rate, never seen in major tournies, 12% representation (about avg) but since a lead designer thinks she's OP everyone jump on the bandwagon?
She was really good after the patch after her initial release.
Her top has been hurt pretty hard with the introduction of new champions, along with some balance changes. She just has a tough time against a lot of champions top now.
She's still ridiculously strong though, her late game is ridic. 6-item riven is pretty stupid strong.
Her weakness right now is her laning phase.
|
On August 23 2012 02:32 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 02:26 Feartheguru wrote:
People barely play Riven top anymore, why so many people think she's OP? So below 50% win rate, never seen in major tournies, 12% representation (about avg) but since a lead designer thinks she's OP everyone jump on the bandwagon? She was really good after the patch after her initial release. Her top has been hurt pretty hard with the introduction of new champions, along with some balance changes. She just has a tough time against a lot of champions top now. She's still ridiculously strong though, her late game is ridic. 6-item riven is pretty stupid strong. Her weakness right now is her laning phase.
riven's laning phase is by no means weak.
edit: to be a little more clear, there are no champions that can convincingly beat a riven who maxes her shield first. There are some that have the potential to maybe get a 10-20 cs lead on her, but none that can actually shut her down completely. Her sheer mobility and free, AD scaling shield make it so she can lane against virtually anybody.
|
On August 23 2012 02:33 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 02:32 wei2coolman wrote:On August 23 2012 02:26 Feartheguru wrote:
People barely play Riven top anymore, why so many people think she's OP? So below 50% win rate, never seen in major tournies, 12% representation (about avg) but since a lead designer thinks she's OP everyone jump on the bandwagon? She was really good after the patch after her initial release. Her top has been hurt pretty hard with the introduction of new champions, along with some balance changes. She just has a tough time against a lot of champions top now. She's still ridiculously strong though, her late game is ridic. 6-item riven is pretty stupid strong. Her weakness right now is her laning phase. riven's laning phase is by no means weak.
Well, i guess what i meant was "counterable"
|
United States15536 Posts
On August 23 2012 02:33 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 02:32 wei2coolman wrote:On August 23 2012 02:26 Feartheguru wrote:
People barely play Riven top anymore, why so many people think she's OP? So below 50% win rate, never seen in major tournies, 12% representation (about avg) but since a lead designer thinks she's OP everyone jump on the bandwagon? She was really good after the patch after her initial release. Her top has been hurt pretty hard with the introduction of new champions, along with some balance changes. She just has a tough time against a lot of champions top now. She's still ridiculously strong though, her late game is ridic. 6-item riven is pretty stupid strong. Her weakness right now is her laning phase. riven's laning phase is by no means weak.
Seriously, it's awesome. So much movement, so much damage. It's like playing a different game.
|
On August 23 2012 02:33 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 02:32 wei2coolman wrote:On August 23 2012 02:26 Feartheguru wrote:
People barely play Riven top anymore, why so many people think she's OP? So below 50% win rate, never seen in major tournies, 12% representation (about avg) but since a lead designer thinks she's OP everyone jump on the bandwagon? She was really good after the patch after her initial release. Her top has been hurt pretty hard with the introduction of new champions, along with some balance changes. She just has a tough time against a lot of champions top now. She's still ridiculously strong though, her late game is ridic. 6-item riven is pretty stupid strong. Her weakness right now is her laning phase. riven's laning phase is by no means weak.
It's weak when the game starts. No ward to protect from gank, Q+E not available, aoe skills causing lane to push. You either end up pushing and getting ganked, or playing safe and falling in cs. But as soon as you get a ward, q and e, the weakness is gone.
|
riven's laning is like, strong at all phases of laning, in fact she's probably the strongest top at lv1. WHERE DO YOU GUYS GET THESE OPINIONS.
|
On August 23 2012 02:26 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 01:54 TheYango wrote:On August 23 2012 01:23 Slayer91 wrote:
Problems with ghostblade:
-Armour pen is easily outscaled by getting armour, meaning you generally want to get it for killing squishies.
-The proc feels like it should be used for training on a squishy champion because you have to constantly attack and can't get stunned/kited if you want to make use of it.
meanwhile
-Crit is a stat that is only good if you attack a lot and have lots of it//AD//
-Cooldown reduction is a stat that works well with more cooldown reduction and long fights
Seems like it's a weird item. The guys who want to burst people want the proc and the armour pen and the guys who want more of a longer fight want crit and CDR both want the AD so it feels like if you want more sustained damage you get wits//frozen heart or something and if you want burst you go for trinity force. The item just lacks clear definition for me.
The only place where the design makes ends meet is with champions like trynd and master yi and fiora who I suppose are designed to build lots of damage but still be bursting squishies. ( I guess you can play them to clean up tanks but there are lots of ADs to do that better)
Oh, and olaf, he can use the ult and dive squishies with just a ghostblade for damage pretty effectively. Olaf still doesn't REALLY use the crit though. Meh. TBH I think Ghostblade as an upgrade is just meh. Bruta is a practically useful item for a lot of champions, it's just that more than half the cost of upgrading to Ghostblade is spent on Avarice Blade, and most of the of guys that want Bruta don't really care for the crit that badly. I get Bruta on a lot of people, but it generally stays as Bruta until I have to choose between upgrading it or selling something. Also, I don't know how people say Kindlegem doesn't build into anything for Rengar. A Champ with a 15% max HP heal on a moderate CD can definitely make use of Spirit Visage. I think it's important to zero in on the "most of the champions" part of your argument. While an item's general value may be low because most champions can't use it effectively, for an individual champion that item's value can be very high (SEE: Pre-nerf Gunblade on Akali). While most bruisers may not care for the crit, a bruiser like Rengar who heavily relies on auto-attacking for damage won't suffer for having invested in it. You can definitely sit on the Brutalizer while getting other important items though (e.g. Necklace, Phage, Aegis, Kindlegem). In other news, Rengar's winrate is apparently only 37% (according to Elobuff). For all the furor over his potential instakill level 1 combo, he apparently isn't banworthy (unless you're trying to prevent your team from taking him). 93% of the time he's being played as a jungler, which might have something to do with it.
The bad winrate might be because everyone is maxing the crappy Q first. I spectated 20 games in which he appeared and in 18 of those the player maxed Q and i joined when his score was around 0/2. In 2 games he maxed W and his score was around 2/0.
|
On August 23 2012 02:35 Deltablazy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 02:33 barbsq wrote:On August 23 2012 02:32 wei2coolman wrote:On August 23 2012 02:26 Feartheguru wrote:
People barely play Riven top anymore, why so many people think she's OP? So below 50% win rate, never seen in major tournies, 12% representation (about avg) but since a lead designer thinks she's OP everyone jump on the bandwagon? She was really good after the patch after her initial release. Her top has been hurt pretty hard with the introduction of new champions, along with some balance changes. She just has a tough time against a lot of champions top now. She's still ridiculously strong though, her late game is ridic. 6-item riven is pretty stupid strong. Her weakness right now is her laning phase. riven's laning phase is by no means weak. It's weak when the game starts. No ward to protect from gank, Q+E not available, aoe skills causing lane to push. You either end up pushing and getting ganked, or playing safe and falling in cs. But as soon as you get a ward, q and e, the weakness is gone.
most rivens open either q or e (mostly q), and riven's retarded passive makes it so she can easily trade favorably @ lvl 1 with the majority of champions. Also, just q on its own and flash can escape just about any gank, unless you are autoing their tower at lvl 1.
edit: lol, usually i don't necessarily agree with bly's blunt way of stating things, but in this case i think it's absolutely correct. Riven is really powerful at all stages of the game, only having a small dip in power between her first back and the time she gets bfsword.
|
So this makes the second champion that was touted as a jungler and ends up better in lane? First Diana (jungle->mid) and now Rengar to top.
Personally, I really didn't like much of his kit for jungle outside of Bola when I first saw it, but yeah, he still looks strong top. I can see him having issues late game (low damage, not really a threat outside E for snaring), but his early game looks decent at least.
|
On August 23 2012 02:40 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 02:35 Deltablazy wrote:On August 23 2012 02:33 barbsq wrote:On August 23 2012 02:32 wei2coolman wrote:On August 23 2012 02:26 Feartheguru wrote:
People barely play Riven top anymore, why so many people think she's OP? So below 50% win rate, never seen in major tournies, 12% representation (about avg) but since a lead designer thinks she's OP everyone jump on the bandwagon? She was really good after the patch after her initial release. Her top has been hurt pretty hard with the introduction of new champions, along with some balance changes. She just has a tough time against a lot of champions top now. She's still ridiculously strong though, her late game is ridic. 6-item riven is pretty stupid strong. Her weakness right now is her laning phase. riven's laning phase is by no means weak. It's weak when the game starts. No ward to protect from gank, Q+E not available, aoe skills causing lane to push. You either end up pushing and getting ganked, or playing safe and falling in cs. But as soon as you get a ward, q and e, the weakness is gone. most rivens open either q or e (mostly q), and riven's retarded passive makes it so she can easily trade favorably @ lvl 1 with the majority of champions. Also, just q on its own and flash can escape just about any gank, unless you are autoing their tower at lvl 1.
I never said she loses trades. I said she's vulnerable when she doesn't have both Q and E, which is exactly when lv2 ganks occur. Flash and Q doesn't always save you from a gank, you'll be exhausted and ignited, with no shield. As soon as riven is lv 2, she's going to win lane.
|
On August 23 2012 02:42 Deltablazy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 02:40 barbsq wrote:On August 23 2012 02:35 Deltablazy wrote:On August 23 2012 02:33 barbsq wrote:On August 23 2012 02:32 wei2coolman wrote:On August 23 2012 02:26 Feartheguru wrote:
People barely play Riven top anymore, why so many people think she's OP? So below 50% win rate, never seen in major tournies, 12% representation (about avg) but since a lead designer thinks she's OP everyone jump on the bandwagon? She was really good after the patch after her initial release. Her top has been hurt pretty hard with the introduction of new champions, along with some balance changes. She just has a tough time against a lot of champions top now. She's still ridiculously strong though, her late game is ridic. 6-item riven is pretty stupid strong. Her weakness right now is her laning phase. riven's laning phase is by no means weak. It's weak when the game starts. No ward to protect from gank, Q+E not available, aoe skills causing lane to push. You either end up pushing and getting ganked, or playing safe and falling in cs. But as soon as you get a ward, q and e, the weakness is gone. most rivens open either q or e (mostly q), and riven's retarded passive makes it so she can easily trade favorably @ lvl 1 with the majority of champions. Also, just q on its own and flash can escape just about any gank, unless you are autoing their tower at lvl 1. I never said she loses trades. I said she's vulnerable when she doesn't have both Q and E, which is exactly when lv2 ganks occur. Flash and Q doesn't always save you from a gank, you'll be exhausted and ignited, with no shield. As soon as riven is lv 2, she's going to win lane.
how on earth does being able to move 1180 game units in any direction make you vulnerable to ganks?
also, i thought some1 else said riven couldn't trade @ lvls 1&2, mybe not. my bad
|
On August 23 2012 02:33 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 02:32 wei2coolman wrote:On August 23 2012 02:26 Feartheguru wrote:
People barely play Riven top anymore, why so many people think she's OP? So below 50% win rate, never seen in major tournies, 12% representation (about avg) but since a lead designer thinks she's OP everyone jump on the bandwagon? She was really good after the patch after her initial release. Her top has been hurt pretty hard with the introduction of new champions, along with some balance changes. She just has a tough time against a lot of champions top now. She's still ridiculously strong though, her late game is ridic. 6-item riven is pretty stupid strong. Her weakness right now is her laning phase. riven's laning phase is by no means weak. edit: to be a little more clear, there are no champions that can convincingly beat a riven who maxes her shield first. There are some that have the potential to maybe get a 10-20 cs lead on her, but none that can actually shut her down completely. Her sheer mobility and free, AD scaling shield make it so she can lane against virtually anybody.
If she's maxing shield first you'll get more than a 10-20 cs lead, she wont do any damage so you have no fear of dying to her at all
|
It seems that if people stop maxing Q on Rengar and instead go W for jungle or E for lane that he is leaps more useful.
|
The stupid thing about riven is how mobile she is imo. Playing against her as Jax is frustrating as hell, because I jump on her and try to stun but nope she has that slide+shield, her q, a stun and a flash. Impossible to ever kill the bitch.
|
On August 23 2012 02:41 Requizen wrote:
So this makes the second champion that was touted as a jungler and ends up better in lane? First Diana (jungle->mid) and now Rengar to top.
Personally, I really didn't like much of his kit for jungle outside of Bola when I first saw it, but yeah, he still looks strong top. I can see him having issues late game (low damage, not really a threat outside E for snaring), but his early game looks decent at least.
His late game is basically splitpushing all day and use his ultimate to escape sticky situations.
|
Whoa guys, what I meant to say, is if she' gets counter picked, her laning phase is pretty rough.
Not to mention, her lane can get camped pretty easily, especially since riven usually calls for playing aggressive. All her 'getting away' abilities, are also offensive abilities, so upon using them she can get caught out pretty hard.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
