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Deltablazy
Canada580 Posts
On August 23 2012 01:03 Chiharu Harukaze wrote: So happy when he finally got moved to Uber. Specmence is the real deal. Oh, and Dragonite. 'CAUSE WE'RE ALL ABOUT THE OD OF THE OG! Y u no love hydreigon? Doesn't get butchered by ice (screw you multiscale) | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On August 23 2012 00:29 Morfildur wrote: On most bruisers Ghostblade is bad, yes, but i think on Rengar it's quite viable. Jump out of the bush, double-auto the opponent with your Q for a higher phage proc chance, activate ghostblade and trash the enemy. It even gives Rengar a choice for a GP10 item with the Avarice Blade since Philo is useless on him and the HoG is not really worth it anymore, though personally i don't know if that item is really worth it early on. Why would you build a Kindlegem on him? It doesn't build into anything he needs. Lastly, basically all other CDR items don't really have any stats he needs. How is ghostblade a bad item? Most items are worth however much stats they give. Exceptions being items with super efficient or good uniques like wits end or frozen mallet, or stacking items like rageblade or bloodthirster. Every AD bruiser likes the stats that ghostblade gives, and then for no extra charge you get the attack speed and movement speed bonus for free on this item. The only scaling stat on ghostblade is crit, and if your attack damage is over 100 then 8% crit ~ 400 gold is equivalent to an 8% increase in your autoattack damage. Same as 8 attack damage. Eventually more crit starts becoming more useful than AD and it's a level bruisers can reach. Crit isn't a stat bruisers may want right away but it's by far not a bad stat. "Bruisers can't afford to stack scaling items" Do you mean that bruisers should not be stacking offensive items because they'll be too squishy? I can agree with this. But as far as purely offensive items go for bruisers, ghostblade is about as good as you can get. | ||
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Chiharu Harukaze
12112 Posts
On August 23 2012 01:08 Deltablazy wrote: Y u no love hydreigon? Doesn't get butchered by ice (screw you multiscale) Only did Generations 1 to 4 competitively. No clue about Gen 5. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On August 23 2012 00:29 Morfildur wrote: On most bruisers Ghostblade is bad, yes, but i think on Rengar it's quite viable. Jump out of the bush, double-auto the opponent with your Q for a higher phage proc chance, activate ghostblade and trash the enemy. It even gives Rengar a choice for a GP10 item with the Avarice Blade since Philo is useless on him and the HoG is not really worth it anymore, though personally i don't know if that item is really worth it early on. Why would you build a Kindlegem on him? It doesn't build into anything he needs. Lastly, basically all other CDR items don't really have any stats he needs. Same reason you might build it on olaf, kindle gem OP. And regnar gets free armour/mr, and a 15% heal, both scale really well with hp, meaning HP is your king defensive stat. CDR is also a defensive stat but also you guys are saying CDR is really good offensively too. So now you're asking me why I'm saying build kindlegem? It's pretty easy to build it into zeke's/spirit visage (and it works with your EMP W!)/shurelyas without really wasting money. Ghostblade might be useful but it still gives crappy crit which doesn't scale well with any of your kit. Maybe just a brutalizer? I'm looking at rengars numbers and it looks like he is super snowbally and needs to get fed. If you're underfed you're a worse udyr who is actually pretty farm dependent himself, but if you're fed and you can keep spamming that empowered W you are like a fed mundo with free abilities and a jump if you're in the bushes. Oh, and he has a snowball item, rofl. | ||
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
On August 23 2012 01:10 obesechicken13 wrote: How is ghostblade a bad item? Most items are worth however much stats they give. Exceptions being items with super efficient or good uniques like wits end or frozen mallet, or stacking items like rageblade or bloodthirster. Every AD bruiser likes the stats that ghostblade gives, and then for no extra charge you get the attack speed and movement speed bonus for free on this item. The only scaling stat on ghostblade is crit, and if your attack damage is over 100 then 8% crit ~ 400 gold is equivalent to an 8% increase in your autoattack damage. Same as 8 attack damage. Eventually more crit starts becoming more useful than AD and it's a level bruisers can reach. Crit isn't a stat bruisers may want right away but it's by far not a bad stat. "Bruisers can't afford to stack scaling items" Do you mean that bruisers should not be stacking offensive items because they'll be too squishy? I can agree with this. But as far as purely offensive items go for bruisers, brutalizer is about as good as you can get. Ghostblade is a good item imo. Only reason it's not bought is because wits end and triforce exist. Most good candidates for ghostblade are also great candidates for wits/triforce, and since those same bruiser candidates can really only afford to have 1 offensive item, the sheer cost-effectiveness of the other two items edge it out. Cdr itemization is then resolved by picking up frozen heart and omen + masteries to hit ~37%. edit: i know nothing about rengar tho, so I can't speak on that. I still don't even know what his skills are, lol. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
-Armour pen is easily outscaled by getting armour, meaning you generally want to get it for killing squishies. -The proc feels like it should be used for training on a squishy champion because you have to constantly attack and can't get stunned/kited if you want to make use of it. meanwhile -Crit is a stat that is only good if you attack a lot and have lots of it//AD// -Cooldown reduction is a stat that works well with more cooldown reduction and long fights Seems like it's a weird item. The guys who want to burst people want the proc and the armour pen and the guys who want more of a longer fight want crit and CDR both want the AD so it feels like if you want more sustained damage you get wits//frozen heart or something and if you want burst you go for trinity force. The item just lacks clear definition for me. The only place where the design makes ends meet is with champions like trynd and master yi and fiora who I suppose are designed to build lots of damage but still be bursting squishies. ( I guess you can play them to clean up tanks but there are lots of ADs to do that better) Oh, and olaf, he can use the ult and dive squishies with just a ghostblade for damage pretty effectively. Olaf still doesn't REALLY use the crit though. Meh. | ||
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On August 23 2012 01:06 Chiharu Harukaze wrote: While Riven may not be the best poster child of the toxic nature of top lane, at the same time it's undeniable that the atmosphere up there can be pretty bad at times. Xyph has correct points on how there's a certain limit as to how much player skill can help determine the matchup, but I do disagree with some of his conclusions. I also have a similar thing where I agree with him on the core problems with itemisation in LoL, but disagree about what the solution should be. But I trust him enough not to get it completely wrong, or to admit when he makes mistakes and fix them. Sometimes you make it REALLY hard for me to believe that you don't work at Riot -.- | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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seanisgrand
United States1039 Posts
We had some pretty good brush denial and nice ganks from mid to help us win lane. Ended 9/3/19. He's a really fun champ to play but I don't feel he brings much at all to teamfights. You can pull off some really fun ferocity combos like leapQemQRleapE. Many possibilities. Wish I could get him top lane. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On August 23 2012 00:54 Requizen wrote: I never paid attention to the competitive Pokemon scene until late in Gen 4, and Garchomp was my favorite Pokemon. I felt like I should feel bad for loving something so overpowered, but then I lol'd and solo'd all my friends. I don't rightly know how one should focus on balancing champions in LoL, honestly. Champion strength fluctuates so much that aside from obvious ones, it's hard to pin down what is strong and what is weak. A new item being released can increase the power of a champion (Grail made every Swain I've played nightmarish), or even a new build being formulated. Champion strength changes based on level and comparative level, what the enemy is building, team composition. Hell, the same champ can be strong in one player's hands but shit in another's because they have different playstyles. I don't like that people are so quick to say "this champion is too strong, nerf plz" when there are so many mitigating factors that go into it. Obvious exceptions exist (release Xin, for example), but my point stands. TRIPPING. FUCK TRIPPING. While I probably have to start with saying that I'm much more in love with DotA 2 atm compared to league something that fascinates me a lot in comparison when it comes to balance is how patching is dealt with in either game. The quick patching cycle League has and the sheer amount of new champions kind of HAS to stop at one point while they find other ways to make money and focus on cleaning up for a while. Icefrog patches so much less nowadays but the overall hero pool is big enough that even the most OP of OP heroes are stuff you can let the enemy team have because you can build strategies against them. After Icefrog gives players some time to figure out stuff I feel his patch approach is "nerf all permabans, slightly nerf all permapicks, buff the rest" which seems to create a much more versatile and interesting heropool than the 2 week patch cycle League has. It's just bound to create fotm stuff all over the place. PS: What's also funny is that (especially considering how 'elitist' DotA fans like to be) is that the quality of content in League (hint: our subforum) is SO MUCH HIGHER THAN MOST DOTA RESOURCES OUT THERE. Including TL. I'm even reading in here when I'm not playing because it's that awesome. <3 On the other hand it feels to me that pub games in dota are much more chill and light hearted than league ranked play but I'm pretty sure that's going to go down the drain once some kind of ranking is going to be established. That elo number really makes people rage more than anything else. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On August 23 2012 01:03 Chiharu Harukaze wrote: So happy when he finally got moved to Uber. Specmence is the real deal. Oh, and Dragonite. 'CAUSE WE'RE ALL ABOUT THE OD OF THE OG! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qe9O90cD80 Every day. Every single day. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On August 23 2012 01:23 Slayer91 wrote: Problems with ghostblade: -Armour pen is easily outscaled by getting armour, meaning you generally want to get it for killing squishies. -The proc feels like it should be used for training on a squishy champion because you have to constantly attack and can't get stunned/kited if you want to make use of it. meanwhile -Crit is a stat that is only good if you attack a lot and have lots of it//AD// -Cooldown reduction is a stat that works well with more cooldown reduction and long fights I think that getting some armor pen and some AD is better than just AD against someone who's stacking moderate amounts of armor. This considering that armor pen is worse vs lots of armor. And you mentioned it's way better than stacking AD against squishies. The proc (I think I wrote about it in jayce thread) actually works like this: You activate it and it lasts for 4 seconds, you auto again and the duration refreshes as 6 seconds. Then you auto again and it refreshes to 8 seconds. If you get stunned after your first two autos then you'll still have 10 seconds of ghostblade uptime so while some of the duration is wasted, it's not that much of the duration. If you get stunned before your 2nd auto then you'll still get your full duration. I disagree that crit is only good if you have a lot of it, and don't know what you mean by a lot of AD. It's hard to gauge how useful small amounts of CDR is. I think this is a valid point though you've got to start building it somewhere. edit: Something interesting. CDR actually gets better the more you have. Like the difference between 0 and 15% cdr is negligible, but the difference between 85% and 100% cdr is pentakill karthus. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 23 2012 01:23 Slayer91 wrote: Problems with ghostblade: -Armour pen is easily outscaled by getting armour, meaning you generally want to get it for killing squishies. -The proc feels like it should be used for training on a squishy champion because you have to constantly attack and can't get stunned/kited if you want to make use of it. meanwhile -Crit is a stat that is only good if you attack a lot and have lots of it//AD// -Cooldown reduction is a stat that works well with more cooldown reduction and long fights Seems like it's a weird item. The guys who want to burst people want the proc and the armour pen and the guys who want more of a longer fight want crit and CDR both want the AD so it feels like if you want more sustained damage you get wits//frozen heart or something and if you want burst you go for trinity force. The item just lacks clear definition for me. The only place where the design makes ends meet is with champions like trynd and master yi and fiora who I suppose are designed to build lots of damage but still be bursting squishies. ( I guess you can play them to clean up tanks but there are lots of ADs to do that better) Oh, and olaf, he can use the ult and dive squishies with just a ghostblade for damage pretty effectively. Olaf still doesn't REALLY use the crit though. Meh. TBH I think Ghostblade as an upgrade is just meh. Bruta is a practically useful item for a lot of champions, it's just that more than half the cost of upgrading to Ghostblade is spent on Avarice Blade, and most of the of guys that want Bruta don't really care for the crit that badly. I get Bruta on a lot of people, but it generally stays as Bruta until I have to choose between upgrading it or selling something. Also, I don't know how people say Kindlegem doesn't build into anything for Rengar. A Champ with a 15% max HP heal on a moderate CD can definitely make use of Spirit Visage. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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Rice
United States1332 Posts
On August 23 2012 01:39 r.Evo wrote: While I probably have to start with saying that I'm much more in love with DotA 2 atm compared to league something that fascinates me a lot in comparison when it comes to balance is how patching is dealt with in either game. The quick patching cycle League has and the sheer amount of new champions kind of HAS to stop at one point while they find other ways to make money and focus on cleaning up for a while. Icefrog patches so much less nowadays but the overall hero pool is big enough that even the most OP of OP heroes are stuff you can let the enemy team have because you can build strategies against them. After Icefrog gives players some time to figure out stuff I feel his patch approach is "nerf all permabans, slightly nerf all permapicks, buff the rest" which seems to create a much more versatile and interesting heropool than the 2 week patch cycle League has. It's just bound to create fotm stuff all over the place. PS: What's also funny is that (especially considering how 'elitist' DotA fans like to be) is that the quality of content in League (hint: our subforum) is SO MUCH HIGHER THAN MOST DOTA RESOURCES OUT THERE. Including TL. I'm even reading in here when I'm not playing because it's that awesome. <3 On the other hand it feels to me that pub games in dota are much more chill and light hearted than league ranked play but I'm pretty sure that's going to go down the drain once some kind of ranking is going to be established. That elo number really makes people rage more than anything else. I dunno about this, heroes like wr and es have been top pick since their inception. I just came back to LoL from dota 2, and dota picks seem MUCH more stagnant than LoL picks. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 23 2012 01:55 Rice wrote: I dunno about this, heroes like wr and es have been top pick since their inception. I just came back to LoL from dota 2, and dota picks seem MUCH more stagnant than LoL picks. WR has gone from being a must-pick first phase hero to a hero that's often not even taken in the second pick phase. You also have to realize that what feels like "stagnant" picks is in part due to the fact that we're reaching the end of a patch cycle, so people have more or less figured out what works for them with the heroes of this patch. 6.74 came out at the beginning of the year, and 6.75 is due at some time soon after the International. Not to mention that in terms of actual playstyles, 6.74 was really not all that different from 6.73 (both are fairly heavily teamfight-oriented, with focus on powerful midgame teamfights). 6.72 was a much more evolutionary patch as playstyles shifted between push-oriented strategies, lategame 4-protects-1 strategies, and becoming reminiscent of 6.73 teamfight-based strategies toward the end, as Chinese teams picked up on the power of heroes like Dragon Knight, Pandaren Brewmaster, Dark Seer, and Slardar. | ||
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chalice
United States1945 Posts
edit: obv with warden's mail + phage | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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TheKefka
Croatia11752 Posts
On August 23 2012 02:16 Slusher wrote: I don't think I've seen a DOTA2 game without leshrac in it LOL now that I think about it neither have I,every time I pop up a Dota stream out of boredom that dude is always in the game. | ||
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