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United States47024 Posts
On August 05 2012 07:10 Vaporized wrote:
critical thinking and independent thinking are both good skills to have, not just in video games, but in life. there is no substition for trying something yourself and coming to your own conclusions. i honestly was very surprised when i looked at the solomid guides for sejuani this afternoon and saw they both listed frozen mallet as core. arguing that it doesnt work when multiple people who have played it numerous times say it does, is just asinine honestly. if there was a way to block you somehow here, i would. you add nothing.
Argues for "critical and independent thinking."
Uses anecdotal evidence and appeal to authority (as if 2k elo guides constitute any sort of definitive authority) to support his ideas.
k
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On August 05 2012 07:39 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 07:10 Vaporized wrote:
critical thinking and independent thinking are both good skills to have, not just in video games, but in life. there is no substition for trying something yourself and coming to your own conclusions. i honestly was very surprised when i looked at the solomid guides for sejuani this afternoon and saw they both listed frozen mallet as core. arguing that it doesnt work when multiple people who have played it numerous times say it does, is just asinine honestly. if there was a way to block you somehow here, i would. you add nothing. Argues for "critical and independent thinking." Uses anecdotal evidence and appeal to authority (as if 2k elo guides constitute any sort of definitive authority) to support his ideas. k
Don; forget dem ad hominems. Never leave home without 'em.
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You know, I like building Frozen Mallet+Rylais+gunblade+randuins on my nunu. Just cuz I need dem slows.
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lol im so tired of people saying triforce pd is bad on hecarim. i dont play him as a tanky initiator. in playing hecarim i realized that he excels at coming in to a fight late and cleaning up. this was a trend that became apparent to me after playing him many, many games. it wasnt something i arrived at right after picking him up. when i play a champ i like to maximize their strengths. a strength of hecarim, as i played him, was coming in late and destroying people.
when i play him i wait until my team is initiated on, or if we have an ashe or blitz or something then they initiate on the enemy team. once some cd's have been blown THEN i ult in and in the time that your ult fear lasts, with a proper build, you can burst down their ap or ad carry. that is how i play hecarim, and it works so well. saying it doesnt work is just plain stupid. hecarim does absurd damage if you build him to do so.
that said, it is entirely team dependent. if i am the only front line melee (say we have double ap and graves soraka bot) then i will build tanky because it is necessary to win. but if we have ali bot or malph top for example, i will build triforce pd and play like i described above. if you dont like this then good for you, dont build him that way. saying it doesnt work though is so dumb, because i can say without a doubt it does. hecarim is a deceptively strong carry, just because it isnt well known, or you havent seen it, or even if you dont believe it, doesnt make it untrue. there are multiple ways to play and build champions, and many of them can work. thinking otherwise is ridiculous.
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On August 05 2012 07:39 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 07:10 Vaporized wrote:
critical thinking and independent thinking are both good skills to have, not just in video games, but in life. there is no substition for trying something yourself and coming to your own conclusions. i honestly was very surprised when i looked at the solomid guides for sejuani this afternoon and saw they both listed frozen mallet as core. arguing that it doesnt work when multiple people who have played it numerous times say it does, is just asinine honestly. if there was a way to block you somehow here, i would. you add nothing. Argues for "critical and independent thinking." Uses anecdotal evidence and appeal to authority (as if 2k elo guides constitute any sort of definitive authority) to support his ideas. k
the hundreds of games of sejuani ive played hardly counts as anecdotal evidence.
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Hecarims passive is so bad~, it forces people to build him incorrectly, then wonder why they fail with the champ.
Also, practice doesn't make perfect.
Perfect practice makes perfect.
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On August 05 2012 07:50 Vaporized wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 07:39 TheYango wrote:On August 05 2012 07:10 Vaporized wrote:
critical thinking and independent thinking are both good skills to have, not just in video games, but in life. there is no substition for trying something yourself and coming to your own conclusions. i honestly was very surprised when i looked at the solomid guides for sejuani this afternoon and saw they both listed frozen mallet as core. arguing that it doesnt work when multiple people who have played it numerous times say it does, is just asinine honestly. if there was a way to block you somehow here, i would. you add nothing. Argues for "critical and independent thinking." Uses anecdotal evidence and appeal to authority (as if 2k elo guides constitute any sort of definitive authority) to support his ideas. k the hundreds of games of sejuani ive played hardly counts as anecdotal evidence.
That's exactly what it means.
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On August 05 2012 07:46 wei2coolman wrote:
You know, I like building Frozen Mallet+Rylais+gunblade+randuins on my nunu. Just cuz I need dem slows.
The slow from FM and Rylai's don't even stack.
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On August 05 2012 08:00 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 07:46 wei2coolman wrote:
You know, I like building Frozen Mallet+Rylais+gunblade+randuins on my nunu. Just cuz I need dem slows. The slow from FM and Rylai's don't even stack.
I don't think anyone going that build cares at all.
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On August 05 2012 08:00 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 07:46 wei2coolman wrote:
You know, I like building Frozen Mallet+Rylais+gunblade+randuins on my nunu. Just cuz I need dem slows. The slow from FM and Rylai's don't even stack.
GOTTA KEEP SLOWING. Snowball. then BB into auto attacks. Then when they get away, you can snowball + gunblade.
Gotta make sure you keep them slowed
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On August 05 2012 07:51 wei2coolman wrote:
Hecarims passive is so bad~, it forces people to build him incorrectly, then wonder why they fail with the champ.
Also, practice doesn't make perfect.
Perfect practice makes perfect.
its not about the damage from his passive. its just like sejuani and ryze now that i think about it. all of these champs have synergies in their kits that make you strong from building a certain stat. health on sejuani adds damage (which is why on frozen mallet, when you consider the slow that synergizes with her whole kit and the health which synergizes with her w it is a good item for her, it is 1 item that is making her stronger in multiple areas). mana on ryze is self explanatory with defensive items that grant mana. one item makes you tanky AND gives you damage. not many champs can exploit an item in that way.
hecarim is slightly different in that he gains damage from SPEED. he is the only champ in the game that does that. what does this mean? it means you move faster then anyone else in the game which implies that you decide when and where a fight will happen. the extra damage from speed is just a side effect of the real bonus, which is being the fastest champ in the game, if you cant see the advantage in that i dont know what to say. if you gained a ton of bonus ad AND were the fastest champ in the game that would be op.
coming from an mmo pvp background finding and exploiting these synergies is crucial and by this point is second nature to me, it is a way to gain an advantage over an enemy who doesnt know to exploit them the same way. like on rift for example, each class had 8 different trees that they could spec into 3 at any one time. finding the synergies between the trees was most of the reason i played the game, and testing out different combinations was very satisfying.
in a well designed game, from a systems perspective, (rift, dark age of camelot, warhammer online, LoL) these synergies should reward the player for exploiting them, otherwise what is the point of having them in the game in the first place? happily for me, and truly, one of the main reasons i like LoL so much is that they seem to understand this and make sure that if you play to a champs strengths you will be successful.
triforce pd pd hecarim might seem stupid on the surface, but why give hecarim a passive like he has if they didnt want to encourage this kind of build? that was my first thought upon reading hecarim's skills. they WANT him to be the fastest champ, they damn near scream at you to build speed on him. and it does actually work. if synergies like sejuani and hecarim's didnt work (logic dictates they should, shoddy game design dictates they dont in every game), i wouldnt play this game. i believe that LoL is extremely well designed from a systems perspective (not perfect, but well done on the whole) and they do actually reward playing into a champs strengths quite a bit.
i never say the way i build or play champs is the right or best way to do it. and the general angst that is illicited when someone says anything that doesnt fit into the 'meta' or preconcieved notions is really funny to me. you know what my first instinct is when someone says something here that i dont agree with is? i want to load up a bot game and try it.
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On August 05 2012 07:47 Vaporized wrote:
lol im so tired of people saying triforce pd is bad on hecarim. i dont play him as a tanky initiator. in playing hecarim i realized that he excels at coming in to a fight late and cleaning up. this was a trend that became apparent to me after playing him many, many games. it wasnt something i arrived at right after picking him up. when i play a champ i like to maximize their strengths. a strength of hecarim, as i played him, was coming in late and destroying people.
I think this is ridiculous. There's no real advantage to building a phantom dancer if that's what you're doing it for (aside from the movement speed), you get more damage from a bloodthirster or any other damage item and you can use your ult for positioning purposes. It sounds like you wanted him to fit a role and built accordingly, because quite frankly Hecarim excels at being a tanky initator while still doing quite a bit of damage.
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On August 05 2012 07:50 Vaporized wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 07:39 TheYango wrote:On August 05 2012 07:10 Vaporized wrote:
critical thinking and independent thinking are both good skills to have, not just in video games, but in life. there is no substition for trying something yourself and coming to your own conclusions. i honestly was very surprised when i looked at the solomid guides for sejuani this afternoon and saw they both listed frozen mallet as core. arguing that it doesnt work when multiple people who have played it numerous times say it does, is just asinine honestly. if there was a way to block you somehow here, i would. you add nothing. Argues for "critical and independent thinking." Uses anecdotal evidence and appeal to authority (as if 2k elo guides constitute any sort of definitive authority) to support his ideas. k the hundreds of games of sejuani ive played hardly counts as anecdotal evidence.
I think it's fair to say that this particular discussion has reached the "agree to disagree" point. Everybody has their own ideas about what is best and doesn't appear to want to deviate to try it out. Or perhaps they have and that is how they got to their current mindset.
Everybody plays with the situation they are in. If Mallet works for you, use it. It's your decision and your play that bares the effects of it, positive of negative. If it doesn't in other people's, then their decision to not use it is just as valid.
=]
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Hec runs fast REGARDLESS of the items you build. So you're better off building items that allow him to survive a fight while doing damage as well. Spending 7k gold on offensive items before any defense on a melee champ is basically asking to die. Even champs like yi build tankier nowadays, and he's basically the exact same champ if you're playing him as "cleanup."
But hey, I'll bite. Lets use your logic on other champs.
Heimer's passive gives health regen. He's also good at defending points and laying siege to a tower. I build Warmogs, FoN, shurelyas, SV, and randuins on him just because it synergizes with his health regen passive and keeps him tanky so he can stay in one place and defend the line though outlasting and constantly pelting things with rockets. This works really well in my elo.
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On August 05 2012 08:24 zer0das wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 07:47 Vaporized wrote:
lol im so tired of people saying triforce pd is bad on hecarim. i dont play him as a tanky initiator. in playing hecarim i realized that he excels at coming in to a fight late and cleaning up. this was a trend that became apparent to me after playing him many, many games. it wasnt something i arrived at right after picking him up. when i play a champ i like to maximize their strengths. a strength of hecarim, as i played him, was coming in late and destroying people. I think this is ridiculous. There's no real advantage to building a phantom dancer if that's what you're doing it for (aside from the movement speed), you get more damage from a bloodthirster or any other damage item and you can use your ult for positioning purposes. It sounds like you wanted him to fit a role and built accordingly, because quite frankly Hecarim excels at being a tanky initator while still doing quite a bit of damage.
the advantage is the movement speed. you play a hit and run style, you backdoor insanely fast, you clean up the team fights. you have different strengths then a tanky initiator. playing him as a tanky initiator is fine. but it is not the only thing he can do. it is different, being different is not inherently bad, this board often thinks otherwise.
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On August 05 2012 08:29 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 07:50 Vaporized wrote:On August 05 2012 07:39 TheYango wrote:On August 05 2012 07:10 Vaporized wrote:
critical thinking and independent thinking are both good skills to have, not just in video games, but in life. there is no substition for trying something yourself and coming to your own conclusions. i honestly was very surprised when i looked at the solomid guides for sejuani this afternoon and saw they both listed frozen mallet as core. arguing that it doesnt work when multiple people who have played it numerous times say it does, is just asinine honestly. if there was a way to block you somehow here, i would. you add nothing. Argues for "critical and independent thinking." Uses anecdotal evidence and appeal to authority (as if 2k elo guides constitute any sort of definitive authority) to support his ideas. k the hundreds of games of sejuani ive played hardly counts as anecdotal evidence. I think it's fair to say that this particular discussion has reached the "agree to disagree" point. Everybody has their own ideas about what is best and doesn't appear to want to deviate to try it out. Or perhaps they have and that is how they got to their current mindset. Everybody plays with the situation they are in. If Mallet works for you, use it. It's your decision and your play that bares the effects of it, positive of negative. If it doesn't in other people's, then their decision to not use it is just as valid. =]
this is what i said several pages ago. totally agree with you dude.
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United States47024 Posts
I don't know how "backdoor insanely fast" translates into buying an offensive item on which more than half the gold value is spent on a stat that doesn't affect towers.
Also, for someone with an MMO PvP background, you pay awfully little attention to diminishing returns and soft caps on stats, seeing as those tend to play a large part in proper itemization in those games.
Past the point where a champion can consistently stay at or above the MS soft cap of 490, CDR starts to contribute more to overall mobility than stacking more movespeed, because having higher uptime on your MS steroid isn't subject to diminishing returns while stacking more MS is.
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You already have around 600 movement speed with just a triforce, 3 movespeed quints, and the movespeed mastery at the peak of his e. You're not gaining any significant movement speed from adding a phantom dancer on top of that, due to the decreasing gains in the movement speed equation. You're essentially arguing that whatever triffling amounts of movement speed and damage you get from the phantom dancer is worth the 2.8k gold you spent on it, which I can assure you, it is not, especially if you've already built a triforce.
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On August 05 2012 08:34 BlackPaladin wrote:
Hec runs fast REGARDLESS of the items you build. So you're better off building items that allow him to survive a fight while doing damage as well. Spending 7k gold on offensive items before any defense on a melee champ is basically asking to die. Even champs like yi build tankier nowadays, and he's basically the exact same champ if you're playing him as "cleanup."
the whole point of building hecarim that way is that he does more damage then just about any champs. his damage is just insane, it really is. it might not seem like it would be, but the bonus ad from his passive, + the crit chance from two pd's and a triforce is crazy. and if things go south (say a 1v1 turns into a 1v2) you just run away.
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Elaborate troll? This is just retarded
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EPT
