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On August 05 2012 08:43 zer0das wrote:
You already have around 600 movement speed with just a triforce, 3 movespeed quints, and the movespeed mastery at the peak of his e. You're not gaining any significant movement speed from adding a phantom dancer on top of that, due to the decreasing gains in the movement speed equation. You're essentially arguing that whatever triffling amounts of movement speed and damage you get from the phantom dancer is worth the 2.8k gold you spent on it, which I can assure you, it is not, especially if you've already built a triforce.
this is at the peak of his e. which is what? 1-2 seconds out of 15-20. with 2 pds and triforce you zoom around the map like i guareentee you have never done before. it almost seems like a different game to move around such a familiar map in such a novel way.
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I say Phantomlord had it right a while ago.
Build ap pony and give out free pony rides.
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On August 05 2012 08:50 Bladeorade wrote:
Elaborate troll? This is just retarded
lol. im actually not trolling and everything i said is true. whether or not it works for you or it fits into your 'meta', well i guess it doesnt.
in mmo's i also liked playing classes or specs that no one else did and seeing if i could make them work. same in LoL. if the game is well designed this stuff should work. and like i said, i believe LoL is extremely well designed and this stuff does work.
the one exception to the rule ive found is ad malz. from a theoretical standpoint, ad malz should be dominant. the only thing holding him back is the inconsistent pet ai, it still is after the patch =( but this isnt an issue with game or system design, it seems to be purely a limitation of the engine. about 1 game in 5 or so his pets will behave in a reasonably smart manner and you can go 20-1. ive done it multiple times. my only penta kill in 1.5 years of playing this game is on ad malz.
this will be my last post here, at least until the discussion moves on.
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Triforce double phantom dancer hecarim is legit guys. It's the evolution of speed garen.
Just like garen, hecarim:
- Spins his weapon
- Has a movespeed boost
- Is the best hero in the game
Unlike garen, hecarim:
- Is a phantom
- Has four legs
- Snorts cocaine
I would say hec is therefore an even BETTER fit for the build.
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Put up or shut up I believe is the only way you will find converters to your way of thought. In short, games and successes of those games until then even I can't take you that seriously and I am fairly okay with unusual ways to build a champion(Exception of Swiftness boots and AD kennen)
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On August 05 2012 08:23 Vaporized wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 05 2012 07:51 wei2coolman wrote:
Hecarims passive is so bad~, it forces people to build him incorrectly, then wonder why they fail with the champ.
Also, practice doesn't make perfect.
Perfect practice makes perfect. its not about the damage from his passive. its just like sejuani and ryze now that i think about it. all of these champs have synergies in their kits that make you strong from building a certain stat. health on sejuani adds damage (which is why on frozen mallet, when you consider the slow that synergizes with her whole kit and the health which synergizes with her w it is a good item for her, it is 1 item that is making her stronger in multiple areas). mana on ryze is self explanatory with defensive items that grant mana. one item makes you tanky AND gives you damage. not many champs can exploit an item in that way. hecarim is slightly different in that he gains damage from SPEED. he is the only champ in the game that does that. what does this mean? it means you move faster then anyone else in the game which implies that you decide when and where a fight will happen. the extra damage from speed is just a side effect of the real bonus, which is being the fastest champ in the game, if you cant see the advantage in that i dont know what to say. if you gained a ton of bonus ad AND were the fastest champ in the game that would be op. coming from an mmo pvp background finding and exploiting these synergies is crucial and by this point is second nature to me, it is a way to gain an advantage over an enemy who doesnt know to exploit them the same way. like on rift for example, each class had 8 different trees that they could spec into 3 at any one time. finding the synergies between the trees was most of the reason i played the game, and testing out different combinations was very satisfying. in a well designed game, from a systems perspective, (rift, dark age of camelot, warhammer online, LoL) these synergies should reward the player for exploiting them, otherwise what is the point of having them in the game in the first place? happily for me, and truly, one of the main reasons i like LoL so much is that they seem to understand this and make sure that if you play to a champs strengths you will be successful. triforce pd pd hecarim might seem stupid on the surface, but why give hecarim a passive like he has if they didnt want to encourage this kind of build? that was my first thought upon reading hecarim's skills. they WANT him to be the fastest champ, they damn near scream at you to build speed on him. and it does actually work. if synergies like sejuani and hecarim's didnt work (logic dictates they should, shoddy game design dictates they dont in every game), i wouldnt play this game. i believe that LoL is extremely well designed from a systems perspective (not perfect, but well done on the whole) and they do actually reward playing into a champs strengths quite a bit. i never say the way i build or play champs is the right or best way to do it. and the general angst that is illicited when someone says anything that doesnt fit into the 'meta' or preconcieved notions is really funny to me. you know what my first instinct is when someone says something here that i dont agree with is? i want to load up a bot game and try it.
A few things.
The reason people argue against your Hecarim build has nothing to do with the "meta" and everything to do with math. At best Hecarim gains 25% of his bonus movement speed as AD. So at 415 speed he gains a total of 24 AD. Boots 2 and masteries/quints put you there, so that's cheap and effective.
Everything after that point is not. From there onward movement speed suffers diminishing returns. The next 20 AD costs 25% more per point. Once you have that AD the cost skyrockets to twice what it was per point. On top of that the initial AD was cheaply obtained through boots and runes/masteries; the rest must be obtained through expensive items like Trinity Force. The basic upshot is that it's extremely costly to build movement speed, and the benefit for doing so is minimal.
That you tend to fall back on your anecdotes and complain about everyone being "stuck in the meta" when someone points out these sorts of flaws does you no favors.
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Nervously cantering away from the Hecarim/Sejuani discussion - since we're talking about movement speed, how do people feel about Boots of Mobility at the moment? I see them more frequently than I'd expect while spectating - as well as the classic jungle Ali (or jungle stealth champions), I've started to notice them pop up on supports (Taric/Leona and probably Alistar if I ever saw one that wasn't jungling) and on maybe 15-20% of jungle Nautilus/Maokai.
I'm slightly leery of them since Mercs/Tabi are very slot/stat-efficient and generally contribute more to teamfights, but I suppose if you're waiting for a perfect see-hero-kill-hero Dazzle or the like, they could be made to work.
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On August 05 2012 08:57 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 08:23 Vaporized wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 05 2012 07:51 wei2coolman wrote:
Hecarims passive is so bad~, it forces people to build him incorrectly, then wonder why they fail with the champ.
Also, practice doesn't make perfect.
Perfect practice makes perfect. its not about the damage from his passive. its just like sejuani and ryze now that i think about it. all of these champs have synergies in their kits that make you strong from building a certain stat. health on sejuani adds damage (which is why on frozen mallet, when you consider the slow that synergizes with her whole kit and the health which synergizes with her w it is a good item for her, it is 1 item that is making her stronger in multiple areas). mana on ryze is self explanatory with defensive items that grant mana. one item makes you tanky AND gives you damage. not many champs can exploit an item in that way. hecarim is slightly different in that he gains damage from SPEED. he is the only champ in the game that does that. what does this mean? it means you move faster then anyone else in the game which implies that you decide when and where a fight will happen. the extra damage from speed is just a side effect of the real bonus, which is being the fastest champ in the game, if you cant see the advantage in that i dont know what to say. if you gained a ton of bonus ad AND were the fastest champ in the game that would be op. coming from an mmo pvp background finding and exploiting these synergies is crucial and by this point is second nature to me, it is a way to gain an advantage over an enemy who doesnt know to exploit them the same way. like on rift for example, each class had 8 different trees that they could spec into 3 at any one time. finding the synergies between the trees was most of the reason i played the game, and testing out different combinations was very satisfying. in a well designed game, from a systems perspective, (rift, dark age of camelot, warhammer online, LoL) these synergies should reward the player for exploiting them, otherwise what is the point of having them in the game in the first place? happily for me, and truly, one of the main reasons i like LoL so much is that they seem to understand this and make sure that if you play to a champs strengths you will be successful. triforce pd pd hecarim might seem stupid on the surface, but why give hecarim a passive like he has if they didnt want to encourage this kind of build? that was my first thought upon reading hecarim's skills. they WANT him to be the fastest champ, they damn near scream at you to build speed on him. and it does actually work. if synergies like sejuani and hecarim's didnt work (logic dictates they should, shoddy game design dictates they dont in every game), i wouldnt play this game. i believe that LoL is extremely well designed from a systems perspective (not perfect, but well done on the whole) and they do actually reward playing into a champs strengths quite a bit. i never say the way i build or play champs is the right or best way to do it. and the general angst that is illicited when someone says anything that doesnt fit into the 'meta' or preconcieved notions is really funny to me. you know what my first instinct is when someone says something here that i dont agree with is? i want to load up a bot game and try it. A few things. The reason people argue against your Hecarim build has nothing to do with the "meta" and everything to do with math. At best Hecarim gains 25% of his bonus movement speed as AD. So at 415 speed he gains a total of 24 AD. Boots 2 and masteries/quints put you there, so that's cheap and effective. Everything after that point is not. From there onward movement speed suffers diminishing returns. The next 20 AD costs 25% more per point. Once you have that AD the cost skyrockets to twice what it was per point. On top of that the initial AD was cheaply obtained through boots and runes/masteries; the rest must be obtained through expensive items like Trinity Force. The basic upshot is that it's extremely costly to build movement speed, and the benefit for doing so is minimal. That you tend to fall back on your anecdotes and complain about everyone being "stuck in the meta" when someone points out these sorts of flaws does you no favors.
You should also bring up why you buy armor on galio and MR on malphite
Although to be fair, only through playtesting can we discover the truth, see top nunu with grail, two things you don't see used very often, but when it got figured out... (Then again grail nunu sounds decent in theory, while MS hecarim sounds completely retarded)
If you want to move really fast, go dunkmaster yi (see the master yi thread)
^ On mobos, they're good for initiating and positioning (see jungle cow) and ganking/catching people in general, but in teamfights they kinda aren't as effective. Basically, mobos is passable on junglers/sion (gankers), dodge boots/mercs top, sorc/mercs mid, and berserkers on ad. Obviously what you buy is situational, but this is the general outline.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 05 2012 09:03 Haasts wrote:
Nervously cantering away from the Hecarim/Sejuani discussion - since we're talking about movement speed, how do people feel about Boots of Mobility at the moment? I see them more frequently than I'd expect while spectating - as well as the classic jungle Ali (or jungle stealth champions), I've started to notice them more on supports (Taric/Leona and probably Alistar if I ever saw one that wasn't jungling) and on maybe 15-20% of jungle Nautilus/Maokai. I'm slightly leery of them since Mercs/Tabi are very slot/stat-efficient and generally contribute more to teamfights, but I suppose if you're waiting for a perfect see-hero-kill-hero Dazzle or the like, they could be made to work.
I chuckled.
Mobility can be very good for a jungler or a support. They're obviously the weakest boots for a straight-up fight, but they're strong in enough ways to be good enough to consider. It comes down to your judgment whether the game at hand requires the superior roaming/chasing ability of Mobility boots, or the straight teamfighting ability you get from other types of boots.
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No doubt that jungle cow gets to build boots5. He doesn't have to care about CCs with his ult and just needs to run around ganking everyone. Run through ward quickly>better chance of gank. Also, Sion as well. Same thing, except he farms everything: creeps, jungle camps, and enemy champions.
No idea on supports. I always thought that you would want all your skills on less of a cd, so ionian's would be ideal.
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On August 05 2012 09:09 Cloud9157 wrote:
No doubt that jungle cow gets to build boots5. He doesn't have to care about CCs with his ult and just needs to run around ganking everyone. Run through ward quickly>better chance of gank. Also, Sion as well. Same thing, except he farms everything: creeps, jungle camps, and enemy champions.
No idea on supports. I always thought that you would want all your skills on less of a cd, so ionian's would be ideal.
Mobos are ok on taric/crank since it gives you more room to catch people
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I just gotta add that reading "coming from an MMO background" made me laugh harder than I have in a longgg time. Thanks for the laugh RobertDinh v2.0.
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I like MS Hecarim, in theory, kinda. But MS items are Super-Expensive (say it in the pokemon stadium voice). TF is a decent Hec item, but PD is not that great without some AD to back it up. I also want more defense on my Hecarim than the build leaves room for with TF + PD (not to mention a 2nd PD).
Also, how is Hec backdooring that fast with 2x PD? Hes not doing much damage to the tower (basically like shen splitpush), but unlike Shen when you go to repel Hecarim, he can't instantly turn the other tower into a 4v5.
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On August 05 2012 09:13 cLutZ wrote:
I like MS Hecarim, in theory, kinda. But MS items are Super-Expensive (say it in the pokemon stadium voice). TF is a decent Hec item, but PD is not that great without some AD to back it up. I also want more defense on my Hecarim than the build leaves room for with TF + PD (not to mention a 2nd PD).
Also, how is Hec backdooring that fast with 2x PD? Hes not doing much damage to the tower (basically like shen splitpush), but unlike Shen when you go to repel Hecarim, he can't instantly turn the other tower into a 4v5.
MS hecarim sounds retarded.
The build is 2xPD & TF (& boots). 4 items right there. So what's your last 2 items? Best thing I can think of is IE (since you have 2 PDs) + GA, and even then you will blow up in around 2 seconds. I'm not even going to bring up the cost of buying all that. No sustain, very little durability as a melee champ, 0 CDR.
Then again, if you get that fed to afford that build, you're probably going to win, so no comment.
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I come from a high level RTS and high level WoW Arena and high level console FPS background. Therefore I know what I am talking about.
Anyway I have no idea what ELO you are at, you haven't mentioned it, but the real problem I have is you are advocating things and to someone new seeing you say you have played hundreds of games and this is an effective way to play, they may very well believe you and then think its the most effective way to play those champs. When, in fact (not theory,) those are suboptimal ways to play those 2 champions and may in fact cause you to learn wrong and when you hit that wall you will stand there going hurrdurr.
I would never go triforce PDPD on anyone. Build makes 0 sense. Frozen Mallet on champ who doesnt need sticking power because she has plenty?
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If you really want to back door as Hecarim, go Ghostblade plus Reverie and Ghost. Good luck catching Hecarim with all those movement speed boosts to chain.
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On August 05 2012 09:11 HazMat wrote:
I just gotta add that reading "coming from an MMO background" made me laugh harder than I have in a longgg time. Thanks for the laugh RobertDinh v2.0.
I have you know everything I needed to learn in life I learned playing Ultima Online.
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On August 05 2012 09:18 Seuss wrote:
If you really want to back door as Hecarim, go Ghostblade plus Reverie and Ghost. Good luck catching Hecarim with all those movement speed boosts to chain.
If you really want to back door, play master yi
I know what's up since not only am I gold elo, but I have over 100 million runescape gold.
Also I'm in masters league so I am mechanically superior than all of you 10 year olds
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Just as a theory craft, would using that build in combination with some ap actually provide decent sustainability in team fights? His w is already pretty good at keeping him up in one, imagine what it would do with some ap on him.
Not to mention it scales with .8 ratio.
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No, the majority of the heal is not from Hecarim's damage, it is from your team's damage. Which you can't take advantage of if you aren't tanky.
This is also the great irony of the "he does so much damage from his passive" argument- it's a really mediocre passive compared to the absolute BS sustain that his w gives in teamfights.
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EPT
