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Wait Q takes priority now?! Wtf...I've still been maxing Q last.
In E vs W, I think it'd depend largely on who you're laning against. Take extra points in E early if they've got a lot of early poke harass.
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It never feels good to do something after it gets nerfed cause you feel like you could have done the same thing before but better. I see no reason to max w over q. If it's a lane where you're trading just max q since you almost always land all 3 with 3 autos. Max e if opponent heavy harass, I see no good reason to max w first with riven.
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On August 03 2012 07:59 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 07:04 Mogwai wrote:On August 03 2012 07:02 zulu_nation8 wrote:
i always thought you're supposed to max E over Q as kassadin but i've seen a lot who max Q, is it lane dependent? everyone maxes Q. maxing E is super situational for when your opponent always charges it up for you and you need to be able to quickly shove the lane back at them (morde I guess?) Didn't Uta say that he would max E against Sivir (back when we had old Sivir and she actually solo-laned)? Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 07:41 epoc wrote:
You clearly missed the point. "If she was ap carry.." meant that the ratio is low. It's low for an ap carry and it's even lower if you the most ap you will get is tf wota and baron buff
Epoc, you're thinking about this the wrong way. Riot CAN'T and SHOULDN'T be designing champs to be shoehorned into a particular role before they're even in the game. It leads to stale design (which they've already been accused of), and little variation, because if Riot goes into the design thinking "we want X champion to perform Y role" they arbitrarily impose restrictions on what skills the champ can and can't have. The simple reason for why there's an AP ratio on Irelia's E is that they couldn't know at design that she wasn't going to be strong as an AP champ. Her E had a higher ratio at release, her R still has one, and her Q has synergy with Sheen/Lichbane. Even now that she's recognized as a bruiser, there's no guarantee that the ratio won't be critical to a build sometime in the future.
I thought the only time you maxed E was against Karthus, since he has to spam Q to farm you'll always have E charges?
On August 03 2012 08:53 HazMat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 08:48 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
does anyone max W with riven now? pretty sure it's q>e>w in lane and jungle I see Q>W>E in lane and jungle O.o
I always play W max riven in both, I thought this was still the style? Then go E/Q after depending on what you need
On August 03 2012 09:14 PH wrote:
Wait Q takes priority now?! Wtf...I've still been maxing Q last.
In E vs W, I think it'd depend largely on who you're laning against. Take extra points in E early if they've got a lot of early poke harass.
Majority of the time i always max Q over E unless its some dumb poke lane, since Q does do some pretty dumb damage + give you passive stacks
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On August 02 2012 14:58 TheYango wrote:
OK I just went back and looked at Twitch's numbers.
Why is nobody playing this guy?
Because people are dumb. People still have the huuur TWITCH IS AWFUL mentality and blame you when they suck and start feeding. Also if your support is dumb and you get behind, you can't do a whole lot because your range is still subpar if you aren't ulting.
That being said, the few times I've played him I have generally done quite well. His damage has gotten me a ton of near pentakills (in situations no one else could even get close to a penta), so I'm pretty sold on him. Probably the best part of remake is he's absolutely obnoxious 1v1 relatively early now- hard to compete with him when he can ambush you 1v1, slow you, and use expunge and knock off like half your health. Also, the fact that his venom stacks remain after using expunge is so strong for getting kills.
The typical team fight with him proceeds as follows: coat entire enemy team in deadly venom, expunge them all and watch their health plummmet, laugh manically as you stealth and catch them with the speed boost. If you have an infinity edge, phantom dancer, black cleaver it's usually a complete an utter slaughter.
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On August 03 2012 09:25 zer0das wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 14:58 TheYango wrote:
OK I just went back and looked at Twitch's numbers.
Why is nobody playing this guy? Because people are dumb. People still have the huuur TWITCH IS AWFUL mentality and blame you when they suck and start feeding. Also if your support is dumb and you get behind, you can't do a whole lot because your range is still subpar if you aren't ulting. That being said, the few times I've played him I have generally done quite well. His damage has gotten me a ton of near pentakills (in situations no one else could even get close to a penta), so I'm pretty sold on him. Probably the best part of remake is he's absolutely obnoxious 1v1 relatively early now- hard to compete with him when he can ambush you 1v1, slow you, and use expunge and knock off like half your health. Also, the fact that his venom stacks remain after using expunge is so strong for getting kills. The typical team fight with him proceeds as follows: coat entire enemy team in deadly venom, expunge them all and watch their health plummmet, laugh manically as you stealth and catch them with the speed boost. If you have an infinity edge, phantom dancer, black cleaver it's usually a complete an utter slaughter.
Because most people are not dumb and realize that his remake was probably a nerf in the sense that his jungle was ruined and he's still not that great bot lane(debatable). Even people who argue that the remake helped him are generally not stu... ahem... silly enough to argue that his early game was buffed.
TL:DR --> This is bad and you should feel bad
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On August 03 2012 08:28 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 04:14 jcarlsoniv wrote:On August 03 2012 04:07 Requizen wrote:On August 03 2012 04:04 Mogwai wrote:On August 03 2012 04:02 NovaTheFeared wrote:
Who's bright idea was it to allow people to dodge from the queue and get no time penalty? Can troll all day spamming decline. I thought they still got a time penalty. Only if you actually get into champ select and leave. Declining just drops you out of queue. On August 03 2012 04:03 jcarlsoniv wrote:On August 03 2012 03:59 Requizen wrote:On August 03 2012 03:50 Alaric wrote:
As I mentioned when Zyra's spotlight came out, I noticed Phreak was saying "max this first if you want xxx, that first if you want yyy, and this one first if you'd rather have zzz", which I think is an improvement since it promotes choice and thoughts in players, even low level, especially those targeted by those spotlight advices. Of course you still no you won't max W first on Zyra, but well... They tried to encourage it with the CDR per level (which is still bloody strong), but the damage on her spells is way more important to her. I think that's one of the things it comes down to. When you have a role (damage dealer, tank, support/healer), generally only one or two abilities directly impact that, while the others support it. For example, Viktor. Q and E both do damage, but Q is more sustained and has a defensive component, while E is more the "BOOM FUCK YOU" damage that you want, so you're obviously going to do that first. Even someone like Brand. All his abilities do damage, but Q and E are a bit more on the utility side (stun and spread DoT), while W is your big boomer. There are of course fringe cases, but for the most part you're going to take the spells first that make you better at what you do. An interesting thing, though, is that lately I've adapted Aranium's Viktor build - QEQEER then get W at 8 and prioritize E - with MS quints It can be dangerous without W to zone jungle ganks, but the lane control it gives you is immense. There are still times when I want W at 4 though. I still need to update this into the Viktor thread, but I need to completely redo most of that OP since I've played ~150 ranked Viktor games since I wrote that. Please do, Vik is about the only mid I play anymore. I'd feel super vulnerable without W, but I suppose it depends on a lot of things (who the jungler is, the status of the lane, etc). Does the second point in Q really boost it that much? It takes a bit of getting used to without having your stun to keep you safe. However, it's the MS quints that truly make this build terrifying. I tried it once and instantly fell in love with it. And yes, the 2nd point in Q makes a very noticeable difference. At lvl 4, you can pretty much take half of your enemy's health with QE, and the MS quints really let you get up there to do it. You can also avoid ganks if you have the foresight to know it's coming (or wards) without W because you're moving 4.5% faster. I will almost exclusively use QEQEE in solo queue because it really lets me apply a ton of pressure in lane. Playing Viktor in arranged 5s, I'll often opt to just go standard EQWE (or EQEW) because we usually used Viktor in poke comp, and all the matters is that, at the very least, I farm and stay safe in lane. Edit: The MS quints also integrate well with your ult when people try to escape. Made me chuckle since at release I advocated MS quints (because I went sustain/bruiser style Viktor) and you said you preferred AP quints, and now that I've tested it and quite like the damage you switched your opinion with me. 
Lol well, when I redo the Viktor thread, I'm going to suggest a standard AP page for those new to Viktor. Then, once you really figure out how his kit works together, you can start using the Aranium rune page. It requires understanding of the champion's strengths and weaknesses. When I wrote the thread, I was only like 50 games in and still learning. 100 games later I started using the Aranium build and haven't looked back.
And I never claimed to be an innovator ;P
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On August 03 2012 09:59 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 08:28 Alaric wrote:On August 03 2012 04:14 jcarlsoniv wrote:On August 03 2012 04:07 Requizen wrote:On August 03 2012 04:04 Mogwai wrote:On August 03 2012 04:02 NovaTheFeared wrote:
Who's bright idea was it to allow people to dodge from the queue and get no time penalty? Can troll all day spamming decline. I thought they still got a time penalty. Only if you actually get into champ select and leave. Declining just drops you out of queue. On August 03 2012 04:03 jcarlsoniv wrote:On August 03 2012 03:59 Requizen wrote:On August 03 2012 03:50 Alaric wrote:
As I mentioned when Zyra's spotlight came out, I noticed Phreak was saying "max this first if you want xxx, that first if you want yyy, and this one first if you'd rather have zzz", which I think is an improvement since it promotes choice and thoughts in players, even low level, especially those targeted by those spotlight advices. Of course you still no you won't max W first on Zyra, but well... They tried to encourage it with the CDR per level (which is still bloody strong), but the damage on her spells is way more important to her. I think that's one of the things it comes down to. When you have a role (damage dealer, tank, support/healer), generally only one or two abilities directly impact that, while the others support it. For example, Viktor. Q and E both do damage, but Q is more sustained and has a defensive component, while E is more the "BOOM FUCK YOU" damage that you want, so you're obviously going to do that first. Even someone like Brand. All his abilities do damage, but Q and E are a bit more on the utility side (stun and spread DoT), while W is your big boomer. There are of course fringe cases, but for the most part you're going to take the spells first that make you better at what you do. An interesting thing, though, is that lately I've adapted Aranium's Viktor build - QEQEER then get W at 8 and prioritize E - with MS quints It can be dangerous without W to zone jungle ganks, but the lane control it gives you is immense. There are still times when I want W at 4 though. I still need to update this into the Viktor thread, but I need to completely redo most of that OP since I've played ~150 ranked Viktor games since I wrote that. Please do, Vik is about the only mid I play anymore. I'd feel super vulnerable without W, but I suppose it depends on a lot of things (who the jungler is, the status of the lane, etc). Does the second point in Q really boost it that much? It takes a bit of getting used to without having your stun to keep you safe. However, it's the MS quints that truly make this build terrifying. I tried it once and instantly fell in love with it. And yes, the 2nd point in Q makes a very noticeable difference. At lvl 4, you can pretty much take half of your enemy's health with QE, and the MS quints really let you get up there to do it. You can also avoid ganks if you have the foresight to know it's coming (or wards) without W because you're moving 4.5% faster. I will almost exclusively use QEQEE in solo queue because it really lets me apply a ton of pressure in lane. Playing Viktor in arranged 5s, I'll often opt to just go standard EQWE (or EQEW) because we usually used Viktor in poke comp, and all the matters is that, at the very least, I farm and stay safe in lane. Edit: The MS quints also integrate well with your ult when people try to escape. Made me chuckle since at release I advocated MS quints (because I went sustain/bruiser style Viktor) and you said you preferred AP quints, and now that I've tested it and quite like the damage you switched your opinion with me. Lol well, when I redo the Viktor thread, I'm going to suggest a standard AP page for those new to Viktor. Then, once you really figure out how his kit works together, you can start using the Aranium rune page. It requires understanding of the champion's strengths and weaknesses. When I wrote the thread, I was only like 50 games in and still learning. 100 games later I started using the Aranium build and haven't looked back. And I never claimed to be an innovator ;P
Months behind, dude.
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On August 03 2012 10:19 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 09:59 jcarlsoniv wrote:On August 03 2012 08:28 Alaric wrote:On August 03 2012 04:14 jcarlsoniv wrote:On August 03 2012 04:07 Requizen wrote:On August 03 2012 04:04 Mogwai wrote:On August 03 2012 04:02 NovaTheFeared wrote:
Who's bright idea was it to allow people to dodge from the queue and get no time penalty? Can troll all day spamming decline. I thought they still got a time penalty. Only if you actually get into champ select and leave. Declining just drops you out of queue. On August 03 2012 04:03 jcarlsoniv wrote:On August 03 2012 03:59 Requizen wrote:On August 03 2012 03:50 Alaric wrote:
As I mentioned when Zyra's spotlight came out, I noticed Phreak was saying "max this first if you want xxx, that first if you want yyy, and this one first if you'd rather have zzz", which I think is an improvement since it promotes choice and thoughts in players, even low level, especially those targeted by those spotlight advices. Of course you still no you won't max W first on Zyra, but well... They tried to encourage it with the CDR per level (which is still bloody strong), but the damage on her spells is way more important to her. I think that's one of the things it comes down to. When you have a role (damage dealer, tank, support/healer), generally only one or two abilities directly impact that, while the others support it. For example, Viktor. Q and E both do damage, but Q is more sustained and has a defensive component, while E is more the "BOOM FUCK YOU" damage that you want, so you're obviously going to do that first. Even someone like Brand. All his abilities do damage, but Q and E are a bit more on the utility side (stun and spread DoT), while W is your big boomer. There are of course fringe cases, but for the most part you're going to take the spells first that make you better at what you do. An interesting thing, though, is that lately I've adapted Aranium's Viktor build - QEQEER then get W at 8 and prioritize E - with MS quints It can be dangerous without W to zone jungle ganks, but the lane control it gives you is immense. There are still times when I want W at 4 though. I still need to update this into the Viktor thread, but I need to completely redo most of that OP since I've played ~150 ranked Viktor games since I wrote that. Please do, Vik is about the only mid I play anymore. I'd feel super vulnerable without W, but I suppose it depends on a lot of things (who the jungler is, the status of the lane, etc). Does the second point in Q really boost it that much? It takes a bit of getting used to without having your stun to keep you safe. However, it's the MS quints that truly make this build terrifying. I tried it once and instantly fell in love with it. And yes, the 2nd point in Q makes a very noticeable difference. At lvl 4, you can pretty much take half of your enemy's health with QE, and the MS quints really let you get up there to do it. You can also avoid ganks if you have the foresight to know it's coming (or wards) without W because you're moving 4.5% faster. I will almost exclusively use QEQEE in solo queue because it really lets me apply a ton of pressure in lane. Playing Viktor in arranged 5s, I'll often opt to just go standard EQWE (or EQEW) because we usually used Viktor in poke comp, and all the matters is that, at the very least, I farm and stay safe in lane. Edit: The MS quints also integrate well with your ult when people try to escape. Made me chuckle since at release I advocated MS quints (because I went sustain/bruiser style Viktor) and you said you preferred AP quints, and now that I've tested it and quite like the damage you switched your opinion with me. Lol well, when I redo the Viktor thread, I'm going to suggest a standard AP page for those new to Viktor. Then, once you really figure out how his kit works together, you can start using the Aranium rune page. It requires understanding of the champion's strengths and weaknesses. When I wrote the thread, I was only like 50 games in and still learning. 100 games later I started using the Aranium build and haven't looked back. And I never claimed to be an innovator ;P Months behind, dude.
Streets ahead.
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On August 03 2012 09:54 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 09:25 zer0das wrote:On August 02 2012 14:58 TheYango wrote:
OK I just went back and looked at Twitch's numbers.
Why is nobody playing this guy? Because people are dumb. People still have the huuur TWITCH IS AWFUL mentality and blame you when they suck and start feeding. Also if your support is dumb and you get behind, you can't do a whole lot because your range is still subpar if you aren't ulting. That being said, the few times I've played him I have generally done quite well. His damage has gotten me a ton of near pentakills (in situations no one else could even get close to a penta), so I'm pretty sold on him. Probably the best part of remake is he's absolutely obnoxious 1v1 relatively early now- hard to compete with him when he can ambush you 1v1, slow you, and use expunge and knock off like half your health. Also, the fact that his venom stacks remain after using expunge is so strong for getting kills. The typical team fight with him proceeds as follows: coat entire enemy team in deadly venom, expunge them all and watch their health plummmet, laugh manically as you stealth and catch them with the speed boost. If you have an infinity edge, phantom dancer, black cleaver it's usually a complete an utter slaughter. Because most people are not dumb and realize that his remake was probably a nerf in the sense that his jungle was ruined and he's still not that great bot lane(debatable). Even people who argue that the remake helped him are generally not stu... ahem... silly enough to argue that his early game was buffed. TL:DR --> This is bad and you should feel bad
you should really stop and look at his numbers man. He outbursts Graves with E assuming you get enough poison stacks, which is pretty easy if you can land your W. Not to mention his poison does quite a lot of damage since it's true damage.
Yes, he can no longer jungle and is forced to play as an AD carry, but I don't think he's nerfed. Just changed into a different role. How often did you see jungle Twitch anyways? Sure, you'd see him in the occasional game but it wasn't like he was ever a top tier jungler anyways.
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On August 03 2012 09:54 Feartheguru wrote:Because most people are not dumb and realize that his remake was probably a nerf in the sense that his jungle was ruined and he's still not that great bot lane(debatable). Even people who argue that the remake helped him are generally not stu... ahem... silly enough to argue that his early game was buffed.
TL:DR --> This is bad and you should feel bad
Have you even tried him? Because I really don't think this is debatable, his raw damage output is skyhigh. It's not single target damage either, it's potentially their whole team (and in practice, hitting with his ult seems way easier, so this isn't some lofty theoretical statement that can never be realized). The one thing that maybe holds this back is if you fall behind early in laning, it is extremely difficult to come back from that as Twitch.
Getting rid of his ability to roam around stealthed all day was an intentional on Riot's part- if you liked old jungle Twitch, well.. it was really gimmicky and generally not fun to play against. He's weaker in that he can't constantly 2v1 people, but he was more than compensated for that.
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I see mabye 1-2 viktors a week, yet somehow enough people feel they know enough about viktor to make that thread travel at 10+ pages per hour.
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On August 03 2012 10:33 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 09:54 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2012 09:25 zer0das wrote:On August 02 2012 14:58 TheYango wrote:
OK I just went back and looked at Twitch's numbers.
Why is nobody playing this guy? Because people are dumb. People still have the huuur TWITCH IS AWFUL mentality and blame you when they suck and start feeding. Also if your support is dumb and you get behind, you can't do a whole lot because your range is still subpar if you aren't ulting. That being said, the few times I've played him I have generally done quite well. His damage has gotten me a ton of near pentakills (in situations no one else could even get close to a penta), so I'm pretty sold on him. Probably the best part of remake is he's absolutely obnoxious 1v1 relatively early now- hard to compete with him when he can ambush you 1v1, slow you, and use expunge and knock off like half your health. Also, the fact that his venom stacks remain after using expunge is so strong for getting kills. The typical team fight with him proceeds as follows: coat entire enemy team in deadly venom, expunge them all and watch their health plummmet, laugh manically as you stealth and catch them with the speed boost. If you have an infinity edge, phantom dancer, black cleaver it's usually a complete an utter slaughter. Because most people are not dumb and realize that his remake was probably a nerf in the sense that his jungle was ruined and he's still not that great bot lane(debatable). Even people who argue that the remake helped him are generally not stu... ahem... silly enough to argue that his early game was buffed. TL:DR --> This is bad and you should feel bad you should really stop and look at his numbers man. He outbursts Graves with E assuming you get enough poison stacks, which is pretty easy if you can land your W. Not to mention his poison does quite a lot of damage since it's true damage. Yes, he can no longer jungle and is forced to play as an AD carry, but I don't think he's nerfed. Just changed into a different role. How often did you see jungle Twitch anyways? Sure, you'd see him in the occasional game but it wasn't like he was ever a top tier jungler anyways.
Fuck he can't even jungle anymore?
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On August 03 2012 08:45 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 08:06 epoc wrote:On August 03 2012 08:00 Seuss wrote:On August 03 2012 07:46 epoc wrote:On August 03 2012 07:44 Seuss wrote:
Obviously Tristana's AP ratios should be doubled because while they're fair to half-decent for an AP carry they're horrible considering the most AP she'll get is WotA and Baron buff.
Or sometimes you put an AP ratio on an ability because it's nice to have it scale a little extra off Baron but if you gave it an AD or some other ratio it would be downright stupid. Tristanas ap ratios should be buffed so that ap trist would be viable. No idea where you got the double from It's because you suggested doubling, in fact quadrupling, the ratio on Irelia's E for no explicable reason. Also, adjusting Tristana's AP ratios is the worst possible way to try and make AP Tristana viable. yes I suggested doubling and quadrupling a 0.5 ratio not a 1.5 one. Making the ratio 2.0 would possibly make ap irelia viable too. 1.0 should be enough though Quadrupling a 0.5 ratio on an 8 second cooldown increases a champion's potential damage more than doubling a 1.5 ratio on a 60 second cooldown. In both cases you're increasing ratios by a flat 1.5, but that doesn't make them equivalent. Also as a reminder, it actually was 1.0 for quite some time. It didn't make AP Irelia anything more than a joke.
Uh, burst damage is a pretty important factor, especially when you're talking about AP. Saying that increasing a 0.5 ratio to 2.0 is VERY VERY different from increasing a 1.5 ratio to 3.0. One of them is going so high up the AP tree that it's going to start nearly oneshotting people.
Also, this conversation is pretty stupid. Nobody cares if ap irelia is ever viable. All it does is make the AP she gets incidentally increases her damage by a negligible amount.
On August 03 2012 09:54 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 09:25 zer0das wrote:On August 02 2012 14:58 TheYango wrote:
OK I just went back and looked at Twitch's numbers.
Why is nobody playing this guy? Because people are dumb. People still have the huuur TWITCH IS AWFUL mentality and blame you when they suck and start feeding. Also if your support is dumb and you get behind, you can't do a whole lot because your range is still subpar if you aren't ulting. That being said, the few times I've played him I have generally done quite well. His damage has gotten me a ton of near pentakills (in situations no one else could even get close to a penta), so I'm pretty sold on him. Probably the best part of remake is he's absolutely obnoxious 1v1 relatively early now- hard to compete with him when he can ambush you 1v1, slow you, and use expunge and knock off like half your health. Also, the fact that his venom stacks remain after using expunge is so strong for getting kills. The typical team fight with him proceeds as follows: coat entire enemy team in deadly venom, expunge them all and watch their health plummmet, laugh manically as you stealth and catch them with the speed boost. If you have an infinity edge, phantom dancer, black cleaver it's usually a complete an utter slaughter. Because most people are not dumb and realize that his remake was probably a nerf in the sense that his jungle was ruined and he's still not that great bot lane(debatable). Even people who argue that the remake helped him are generally not stu... ahem... silly enough to argue that his early game was buffed. TL:DR --> This is bad and you should feel bad
The difference is, now twitch (and Eve) are in a state where Riot CAN tweak them, and CAN buff them. Before, Riot didn't want to do anything at all to either of them for fear of turning them from completely UP to completely OP.
Twitch jungle was only good because catching people off guard with his level 2 ganks had some ridiculous potential. If you got stuck in a situation where your ganks didn't snowball yourself or someone else into ridiculousness, you had no recourse.
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Did like no one read what I posted on Twitch zzz
Twitch FotM some time in the future. Calling it right here right now.
Yup I see it happening. Don't really know why people think he's still bad at all.
The difference is, now twitch (and Eve) are in a state where Riot CAN tweak them, and CAN buff them. Before, Riot didn't want to do anything at all to either of them for fear of turning them from completely UP to completely OP.
I'm fully convinced that Riot will never give Eve what she needs to be viable. They're hoping they can give her the bare minimum and people will just forget about her all over again. FUCKING BASE STATS F:IOUKABFLIUGBP:IVLIYDFV:IFU:IUFGVBF
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give 'em about a month. then all the sheeple will see it your way. Be patient and all will revel in the glory of the bears.
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On August 03 2012 10:33 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 09:54 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2012 09:25 zer0das wrote:On August 02 2012 14:58 TheYango wrote:
OK I just went back and looked at Twitch's numbers.
Why is nobody playing this guy? Because people are dumb. People still have the huuur TWITCH IS AWFUL mentality and blame you when they suck and start feeding. Also if your support is dumb and you get behind, you can't do a whole lot because your range is still subpar if you aren't ulting. That being said, the few times I've played him I have generally done quite well. His damage has gotten me a ton of near pentakills (in situations no one else could even get close to a penta), so I'm pretty sold on him. Probably the best part of remake is he's absolutely obnoxious 1v1 relatively early now- hard to compete with him when he can ambush you 1v1, slow you, and use expunge and knock off like half your health. Also, the fact that his venom stacks remain after using expunge is so strong for getting kills. The typical team fight with him proceeds as follows: coat entire enemy team in deadly venom, expunge them all and watch their health plummmet, laugh manically as you stealth and catch them with the speed boost. If you have an infinity edge, phantom dancer, black cleaver it's usually a complete an utter slaughter. Because most people are not dumb and realize that his remake was probably a nerf in the sense that his jungle was ruined and he's still not that great bot lane(debatable). Even people who argue that the remake helped him are generally not stu... ahem... silly enough to argue that his early game was buffed. TL:DR --> This is bad and you should feel bad you should really stop and look at his numbers man. He outbursts Graves with E assuming you get enough poison stacks, which is pretty easy if you can land your W. Not to mention his poison does quite a lot of damage since it's true damage. Yes, he can no longer jungle and is forced to play as an AD carry, but I don't think he's nerfed. Just changed into a different role. How often did you see jungle Twitch anyways? Sure, you'd see him in the occasional game but it wasn't like he was ever a top tier jungler anyways.
How are you deciding whether he got nerfed or buffed just by looking at his current numbers? If we're talking about laning
--> less base dmg
--> 50 more range
--> slow nerf
--> stealth nerf
--> expunge early game nerf
--> poison buff
And that comparison to graves. One does not simply say hey look when twitch uses his whole kit in the most optimal situation he out trades a graves that doesn't land a smokescreen or use his attk speed buff. Anyone can argue any champ is better than other other champ with a sharpshooter argument like that.
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On August 03 2012 11:17 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 10:33 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 03 2012 09:54 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2012 09:25 zer0das wrote:On August 02 2012 14:58 TheYango wrote:
OK I just went back and looked at Twitch's numbers.
Why is nobody playing this guy? Because people are dumb. People still have the huuur TWITCH IS AWFUL mentality and blame you when they suck and start feeding. Also if your support is dumb and you get behind, you can't do a whole lot because your range is still subpar if you aren't ulting. That being said, the few times I've played him I have generally done quite well. His damage has gotten me a ton of near pentakills (in situations no one else could even get close to a penta), so I'm pretty sold on him. Probably the best part of remake is he's absolutely obnoxious 1v1 relatively early now- hard to compete with him when he can ambush you 1v1, slow you, and use expunge and knock off like half your health. Also, the fact that his venom stacks remain after using expunge is so strong for getting kills. The typical team fight with him proceeds as follows: coat entire enemy team in deadly venom, expunge them all and watch their health plummmet, laugh manically as you stealth and catch them with the speed boost. If you have an infinity edge, phantom dancer, black cleaver it's usually a complete an utter slaughter. Because most people are not dumb and realize that his remake was probably a nerf in the sense that his jungle was ruined and he's still not that great bot lane(debatable). Even people who argue that the remake helped him are generally not stu... ahem... silly enough to argue that his early game was buffed. TL:DR --> This is bad and you should feel bad you should really stop and look at his numbers man. He outbursts Graves with E assuming you get enough poison stacks, which is pretty easy if you can land your W. Not to mention his poison does quite a lot of damage since it's true damage. Yes, he can no longer jungle and is forced to play as an AD carry, but I don't think he's nerfed. Just changed into a different role. How often did you see jungle Twitch anyways? Sure, you'd see him in the occasional game but it wasn't like he was ever a top tier jungler anyways. How are you deciding whether he got nerfed or buffed just by looking at his current numbers? If we're talking about laning --> less base dmg --> 50 more range --> slow nerf --> stealth nerf --> expunge early game nerf --> poison buff And that comparison to graves. One does not simply say hey look when twitch uses his whole kit in the most optimal situation he out trades a graves that doesn't land a smokescreen or use his attk speed buff. Anyone can argue any champ is better than other other champ with a sharpshooter argument like that.
I think the main thing is imo atleast, they made his ult atleast similar to what it used to be.
aka no more stupid attack limit bullshit, expunge not removing poison is a huge buff too, i liked the old slow though i can agree
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Twitch's slow was nerfed... on paper. In a pratical situation it's much much better because you don't have to stack deadly venom (just hit a skillshot) and it instantly can coat multiple people and adds stacks of deadly venom. The stealth doesn't really affect his laning that much at all- it makes roaming around mid-game less rewarding, but it's actually a buff if you're just sticking around in lane because you get a speed boost after you're in stealth making it easier to pursue and kill people. Expunge got an AD ratio that is nutters, I'll take that over some early game damage, especially given it's so much easier to apply stacks of deadly venom. Also, expunge doesn't even consume deadly venom now.
Then you look at his team fight capabilities: if you coat the entire enemy team with deadly venom (a lot easier since the number of bolts scales with attack speed now) with spray and pray and use expunge, and you have around 180 bonus AD (not crazy since that's an IE+BT), you're doing around 3k damage before resists to their entire enemy team, plus whatever true damage you're doing, not to mention the spray and pray bolt itself. On top of this you have a speed boost when you drop into stealth and a massive slow. How is this not better? The old Twitch couldn't even hope to do anywhere near this amount of damage, just relied upon auto-attacks and his attack speed.
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EPT
