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On August 03 2012 07:25 epoc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 07:19 Nos- wrote:On August 03 2012 07:16 epoc wrote:On August 03 2012 07:07 AwayFromLife wrote:On August 03 2012 07:04 epoc wrote:On August 03 2012 07:02 AwayFromLife wrote:On August 03 2012 06:58 epoc wrote:On August 03 2012 06:49 AwayFromLife wrote:On August 03 2012 06:37 epoc wrote:On August 03 2012 06:32 AwayFromLife wrote:
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So do you think or read when you type, or do you just lick your keyboard until it posts? Doesn't seem like that I lick my keyboard. Might wanna try making sense? Same thing with volibear. His q and e should scale somehow. So you're just complaining because the champs you like to play can't 2 shot everything? No, utility spells do not need super hard scaling. Voli already has enough damage between his boosted auto attacks and bite, Irelia with TF already nearly instagibs sqishies and can't die. If you're having trouble using them, that sucks, but it's not the champ's fault. Probably PEBKAC. Yeah I'm complaining because I wanna instagib squishies. and 45 more dmg with tf pre mitigation is not "super scaling" So what the hell is your issue then? .5 scaling is more than 0, are you honestly arguing that you neeeeeed 45 more damage? The issue is that imo there needs to be some scaling. 45 is surely some damage. Irelia is already super viable, who gives a shit how she scales with a stat she doesn't even build. There is some scaling. There's .5 AP scaling. That's some. Some > 0. Depends. If she was an ap carry with 8 sec 0.5 ap ratio the spell would be among the worst in the game If Riven was an ap carry she'd be the worst champion in the game. Oh wait, she isn't. Oh wait she doesn't even have ap ratios
She's also not an ap carry. Guess who else isn't an ap carry?
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On August 03 2012 07:37 Nos- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 07:25 epoc wrote:On August 03 2012 07:19 Nos- wrote:On August 03 2012 07:16 epoc wrote:On August 03 2012 07:07 AwayFromLife wrote:On August 03 2012 07:04 epoc wrote:On August 03 2012 07:02 AwayFromLife wrote:On August 03 2012 06:58 epoc wrote:On August 03 2012 06:49 AwayFromLife wrote:On August 03 2012 06:37 epoc wrote:
[quote]
Doesn't seem like that I lick my keyboard. Might wanna try making sense? Same thing with volibear. His q and e should scale somehow. So you're just complaining because the champs you like to play can't 2 shot everything? No, utility spells do not need super hard scaling. Voli already has enough damage between his boosted auto attacks and bite, Irelia with TF already nearly instagibs sqishies and can't die. If you're having trouble using them, that sucks, but it's not the champ's fault. Probably PEBKAC. Yeah I'm complaining because I wanna instagib squishies. and 45 more dmg with tf pre mitigation is not "super scaling" So what the hell is your issue then? .5 scaling is more than 0, are you honestly arguing that you neeeeeed 45 more damage? The issue is that imo there needs to be some scaling. 45 is surely some damage. Irelia is already super viable, who gives a shit how she scales with a stat she doesn't even build. There is some scaling. There's .5 AP scaling. That's some. Some > 0. Depends. If she was an ap carry with 8 sec 0.5 ap ratio the spell would be among the worst in the game If Riven was an ap carry she'd be the worst champion in the game. Oh wait, she isn't. Oh wait she doesn't even have ap ratios She's also not an ap carry. Guess who else isn't an ap carry?
You clearly missed the point. "If she was ap carry.." meant that the ratio is low. It's low for an ap carry and it's even lower if you the most ap you will get is tf wota and baron buff
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Obviously Tristana's AP ratios should be doubled because while they're fair to half-decent for an AP carry they're horrible considering the most AP she'll get is WotA and Baron buff.
Or sometimes you put an AP ratio on an ability because it's nice to have it scale a little extra off Baron but if you gave it an AD or some other ratio it would be downright stupid.
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On August 03 2012 07:44 Seuss wrote:
Obviously Tristana's AP ratios should be doubled because while they're fair to half-decent for an AP carry they're horrible considering the most AP she'll get is WotA and Baron buff.
Or sometimes you put an AP ratio on an ability because it's nice to have it scale a little extra off Baron but if you gave it an AD or some other ratio it would be downright stupid.
Tristanas ap ratios should be buffed so that ap trist would be viable. No idea where you got the double from
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On August 03 2012 07:14 Parnage wrote:http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2428990 Hey look, Viktor discussion and opinions needed, looks like a great place for Mr. Soniv to weigh in, I didn't see him in the thread when I looked over it. Perhaps some of the fine TL folk can weigh in on the matter.
Man I hope they dont fuck up Viktor...I would post in the thread but its too big to matter at this point.
Bunch of people complaining about his E being too hard to hit and clumsy....are you fucking kidding me.
I'd still be real happy with just a change to his passive so you can actually build him different ways, but it looks like alot of the community is still obsessed with the "Viktor is unplayable" meme. I go like 15-3 whenever I play him.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 03 2012 07:04 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 07:02 zulu_nation8 wrote:
i always thought you're supposed to max E over Q as kassadin but i've seen a lot who max Q, is it lane dependent? everyone maxes Q. maxing E is super situational for when your opponent always charges it up for you and you need to be able to quickly shove the lane back at them (morde I guess?)
Didn't Uta say that he would max E against Sivir (back when we had old Sivir and she actually solo-laned)?
On August 03 2012 07:41 epoc wrote:
You clearly missed the point. "If she was ap carry.." meant that the ratio is low. It's low for an ap carry and it's even lower if you the most ap you will get is tf wota and baron buff
Epoc, you're thinking about this the wrong way. Riot CAN'T and SHOULDN'T be designing champs to be shoehorned into a particular role before they're even in the game. It leads to stale design (which they've already been accused of), and little variation, because if Riot goes into the design thinking "we want X champion to perform Y role" they arbitrarily impose restrictions on what skills the champ can and can't have.
The simple reason for why there's an AP ratio on Irelia's E is that they couldn't know at design that she wasn't going to be strong as an AP champ. Her E had a higher ratio at release, her R still has one, and her Q has synergy with Sheen/Lichbane. Even now that she's recognized as a bruiser, there's no guarantee that the ratio won't be critical to a build sometime in the future.
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On August 03 2012 07:46 epoc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 07:44 Seuss wrote:
Obviously Tristana's AP ratios should be doubled because while they're fair to half-decent for an AP carry they're horrible considering the most AP she'll get is WotA and Baron buff.
Or sometimes you put an AP ratio on an ability because it's nice to have it scale a little extra off Baron but if you gave it an AD or some other ratio it would be downright stupid. Tristanas ap ratios should be buffed so that ap trist would be viable. No idea where you got the double from
It's because you suggested doubling, in fact quadrupling, the ratio on Irelia's E for no explicable reason.
Also, adjusting Tristana's AP ratios is the worst possible way to try and make AP Tristana viable.
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i think tris is a tourney viable ap carry, people say she has to jump into team to do damage but so does every other AP who needs hourglass
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Here's a thought-experiment.
Let's say Irelia is in a "balanced" state for the current state of LoL. If you buff her E, then she becomes OP. If that's the case, what do you nerf to push back to a balanced state?
Let's say Irelia is in an "OP" state for the current state of LoL. If you buff her E, then she becomes even more OP. If that's the case, why buff her E?
Let's say Irelia is in a "UP" state for the current state of LoL. If you want to bring her into line what you want her to be, what is the reason she is UP? Identify that first before experimenting with buffs.
On August 03 2012 08:03 zulu_nation8 wrote:
i think tris is a tourney viable ap carry, people say she has to jump into team to do damage but so does every other AP who needs hourglass
I think the biggest problem with AP Trist is that if you don't get a refresh, you're basically done for since you're now all-in with very long CDs and you committed with your escape tool. Your Q also pretty much has no other use except to proc Sheen/Lichbane as well. Although with sufficient AP you still deal good damage to towers but not to champions/minions. Also, her spells can no longer trigger E passive.
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United States47024 Posts
The thing about AP Trist is that unless your W refreshes, all of your cooldowns are much longer than what's typical for an AP carry, without necessarily having significantly more damage to make up for it.
It crushes people if you're farmed enough to kill someone right away, but in the average use case where someone doesn't insta-die to your combo, that presents some problems.
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On August 03 2012 08:03 zulu_nation8 wrote:
i think tris is a tourney viable ap carry, people say she has to jump into team to do damage but so does every other AP who needs hourglass
Yeah but all the viable hourglass AP's do massive AOE damage, Trist is 90% single target.
If you wanted a similar champ, Fizz is actually really similar to AP trist:
AOE damage jump
AP scaling 5 sec DOT
Fizz just gets another mobility nuke and more overall mobility, plus an AOE ult that slows and way smaller cooldowns.
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really moonbear? you could have just linked to xypherous's thread instead of copy pasting him.
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On August 03 2012 08:00 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 07:46 epoc wrote:On August 03 2012 07:44 Seuss wrote:
Obviously Tristana's AP ratios should be doubled because while they're fair to half-decent for an AP carry they're horrible considering the most AP she'll get is WotA and Baron buff.
Or sometimes you put an AP ratio on an ability because it's nice to have it scale a little extra off Baron but if you gave it an AD or some other ratio it would be downright stupid. Tristanas ap ratios should be buffed so that ap trist would be viable. No idea where you got the double from It's because you suggested doubling, in fact quadrupling, the ratio on Irelia's E for no explicable reason. Also, adjusting Tristana's AP ratios is the worst possible way to try and make AP Tristana viable.
yes I suggested doubling and quadrupling a 0.5 ratio not a 1.5 one. Making the ratio 2.0 would possibly make ap irelia viable too. 1.0 should be enough though
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On August 03 2012 08:06 UniversalSnip wrote:
really moonbear? you could have just linked to xypherous's thread instead of copy pasting him.
I'm sorry.
If it helps, I'll talk about something else then, related to one of the conversations earlier.
When a champion is designed, there is a reason most of them have one-point wonders and commonly have a "best choice" for skill orders. This is because it makes champion design more intuitive for players to understand. For example, max W first on Riven feels good for players because it's shorter CD on a stun and good burst damage. It makes sense and it's easy for a player to appreciate. The same goes for, say, Morgana maxing her pool or Gragas maxing his Q. If a player looks at a skillset and say "wtf am I supposed to level" then as a designer you've failed. This is especially important for lower level players who have to be guided into how to play. Design should be elegant. Interestingly, in this manner the Design Team considers champions such as Renekton as failed designs because feedback and analysis of players shows that many players aren't able to recognise what they want to be doing. The same goes for Karma, where players don't often know what they want to be doing.
However, good design also allows for players to express themselves in lane though non-standard skill choices. Let's take Riven for example again. In some lanes, you max E first instead of W (e.g. against Nunu). This is completely a player choice based on real-time input to the game. A lesser player would stick to their generic W>Q>E build, while a more capable player realises you need E to survive the lane. Comparisons could also be made to Tristana. Some people may just rank W>E>Q in lane. However, a more astutue player can recognise when they no longer need levels in W or E and proceed to max out Q just in time for big teamfights. Again, there is an obvious path for players to recognise when they initially learn a champion and then diversify and be able to adapt according to how the game develops. Lee Sin is also another great example, where players can choose how they want to skill and build him by responding to real-time input.
Admittedly, many people learn skill orders and build by watching other people and taking from people better than them. And that's okay too. However, it is still important for players to be able to develop at least a primitive understanding on champion roles and functions and be able to make judgements based on that themselves. Forcing players to study masses of information before they even play a champion only increases the threshold of the burden of knowledge.
I hope you enjoyed that more USnip.
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On August 03 2012 07:36 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 06:14 kongoline wrote:
how is lux mid? i cant decide between anivia and her, anivia seems better but less fun and i already got bored of her from watching streamsl,. on paper lux seems awsome she has huge range, cc, good wave clearing only thing i dont like are relative high cooldowns, any opinions? She has problems with clears and mana since she has the most ungodly mana usage of any mid I know since she can't deal the sustained damage to creeps nor can she hit all of them, nor is her E ratio good enough. Fed luxes and end game ones are scary though. So safe TT, team so squish, no one is good at diving
Her clear isn't that bad, but she does need to hit them with auto... that causes some problems.
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On August 03 2012 04:14 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 04:07 Requizen wrote:On August 03 2012 04:04 Mogwai wrote:On August 03 2012 04:02 NovaTheFeared wrote:
Who's bright idea was it to allow people to dodge from the queue and get no time penalty? Can troll all day spamming decline. I thought they still got a time penalty. Only if you actually get into champ select and leave. Declining just drops you out of queue. On August 03 2012 04:03 jcarlsoniv wrote:On August 03 2012 03:59 Requizen wrote:On August 03 2012 03:50 Alaric wrote:
As I mentioned when Zyra's spotlight came out, I noticed Phreak was saying "max this first if you want xxx, that first if you want yyy, and this one first if you'd rather have zzz", which I think is an improvement since it promotes choice and thoughts in players, even low level, especially those targeted by those spotlight advices. Of course you still no you won't max W first on Zyra, but well... They tried to encourage it with the CDR per level (which is still bloody strong), but the damage on her spells is way more important to her. I think that's one of the things it comes down to. When you have a role (damage dealer, tank, support/healer), generally only one or two abilities directly impact that, while the others support it. For example, Viktor. Q and E both do damage, but Q is more sustained and has a defensive component, while E is more the "BOOM FUCK YOU" damage that you want, so you're obviously going to do that first. Even someone like Brand. All his abilities do damage, but Q and E are a bit more on the utility side (stun and spread DoT), while W is your big boomer. There are of course fringe cases, but for the most part you're going to take the spells first that make you better at what you do. An interesting thing, though, is that lately I've adapted Aranium's Viktor build - QEQEER then get W at 8 and prioritize E - with MS quints It can be dangerous without W to zone jungle ganks, but the lane control it gives you is immense. There are still times when I want W at 4 though. I still need to update this into the Viktor thread, but I need to completely redo most of that OP since I've played ~150 ranked Viktor games since I wrote that. Please do, Vik is about the only mid I play anymore. I'd feel super vulnerable without W, but I suppose it depends on a lot of things (who the jungler is, the status of the lane, etc). Does the second point in Q really boost it that much? It takes a bit of getting used to without having your stun to keep you safe. However, it's the MS quints that truly make this build terrifying. I tried it once and instantly fell in love with it. And yes, the 2nd point in Q makes a very noticeable difference. At lvl 4, you can pretty much take half of your enemy's health with QE, and the MS quints really let you get up there to do it. You can also avoid ganks if you have the foresight to know it's coming (or wards) without W because you're moving 4.5% faster. I will almost exclusively use QEQEE in solo queue because it really lets me apply a ton of pressure in lane. Playing Viktor in arranged 5s, I'll often opt to just go standard EQWE (or EQEW) because we usually used Viktor in poke comp, and all the matters is that, at the very least, I farm and stay safe in lane. Edit: The MS quints also integrate well with your ult when people try to escape.
Made me chuckle since at release I advocated MS quints (because I went sustain/bruiser style Viktor) and you said you preferred AP quints, and now that I've tested it and quite like the damage you switched your opinion with me. 
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On August 03 2012 08:06 epoc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 08:00 Seuss wrote:On August 03 2012 07:46 epoc wrote:On August 03 2012 07:44 Seuss wrote:
Obviously Tristana's AP ratios should be doubled because while they're fair to half-decent for an AP carry they're horrible considering the most AP she'll get is WotA and Baron buff.
Or sometimes you put an AP ratio on an ability because it's nice to have it scale a little extra off Baron but if you gave it an AD or some other ratio it would be downright stupid. Tristanas ap ratios should be buffed so that ap trist would be viable. No idea where you got the double from It's because you suggested doubling, in fact quadrupling, the ratio on Irelia's E for no explicable reason. Also, adjusting Tristana's AP ratios is the worst possible way to try and make AP Tristana viable. yes I suggested doubling and quadrupling a 0.5 ratio not a 1.5 one. Making the ratio 2.0 would possibly make ap irelia viable too. 1.0 should be enough though
Quadrupling a 0.5 ratio on an 8 second cooldown increases a champion's potential damage more than doubling a 1.5 ratio on a 60 second cooldown. In both cases you're increasing ratios by a flat 1.5, but that doesn't make them equivalent.
Also as a reminder, it actually was 1.0 for quite some time. It didn't make AP Irelia anything more than a joke.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
does anyone max W with riven now? pretty sure it's q>e>w in lane and jungle
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On August 03 2012 08:48 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
does anyone max W with riven now? pretty sure it's q>e>w in lane and jungle
I see Q>W>E in lane and jungle O.o
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I always thought maxing w was mandatory and maybe shield if against heavy harass lanes like Nunu(lol), teemo or kennen.
at least the 2 guides I used when I startedplaying riven suggested that (the super guide on solomid and wingsofdeathx's)
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EPT
