|
On August 03 2012 11:17 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 10:33 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 03 2012 09:54 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2012 09:25 zer0das wrote:On August 02 2012 14:58 TheYango wrote:
OK I just went back and looked at Twitch's numbers.
Why is nobody playing this guy? Because people are dumb. People still have the huuur TWITCH IS AWFUL mentality and blame you when they suck and start feeding. Also if your support is dumb and you get behind, you can't do a whole lot because your range is still subpar if you aren't ulting. That being said, the few times I've played him I have generally done quite well. His damage has gotten me a ton of near pentakills (in situations no one else could even get close to a penta), so I'm pretty sold on him. Probably the best part of remake is he's absolutely obnoxious 1v1 relatively early now- hard to compete with him when he can ambush you 1v1, slow you, and use expunge and knock off like half your health. Also, the fact that his venom stacks remain after using expunge is so strong for getting kills. The typical team fight with him proceeds as follows: coat entire enemy team in deadly venom, expunge them all and watch their health plummmet, laugh manically as you stealth and catch them with the speed boost. If you have an infinity edge, phantom dancer, black cleaver it's usually a complete an utter slaughter. Because most people are not dumb and realize that his remake was probably a nerf in the sense that his jungle was ruined and he's still not that great bot lane(debatable). Even people who argue that the remake helped him are generally not stu... ahem... silly enough to argue that his early game was buffed. TL:DR --> This is bad and you should feel bad you should really stop and look at his numbers man. He outbursts Graves with E assuming you get enough poison stacks, which is pretty easy if you can land your W. Not to mention his poison does quite a lot of damage since it's true damage. Yes, he can no longer jungle and is forced to play as an AD carry, but I don't think he's nerfed. Just changed into a different role. How often did you see jungle Twitch anyways? Sure, you'd see him in the occasional game but it wasn't like he was ever a top tier jungler anyways. How are you deciding whether he got nerfed or buffed just by looking at his current numbers? If we're talking about laning --> less base dmg --> 50 more range --> slow nerf --> stealth nerf --> expunge early game nerf --> poison buff And that comparison to graves. One does not simply say hey look when twitch uses his whole kit in the most optimal situation he out trades a graves that doesn't land a smokescreen or use his attk speed buff. Anyone can argue any champ is better than other other champ with a sharpshooter argument like that.
Pretty sure base damage was just increased. It's 52 at level 1, which is pretty good for an AD carry.
50 more range is huge. You absolutely cannot undersell this. 50 range puts him on par range-wise with every other AD carry in lane except Kog, Ashe, and Cait. With his ulti he has the highest range in the game bar none at 850. It makes his laning much much better.
Twitch's slow slows for 5% less at level 1, and is equal to old slow's base slow at level 2. It's arguably stronger in that while it has less slow at lower levels, it has huge range and, more importantly, actually adds poison stacks, meaning greater overall damage. Additionally, on old Twitch, you'd usually use slow immediately out of unstealthing meaning you'd usually only get the base 30% slow, you maybe would get 1 stack to get a 36% slow, but that's matched by level 3.
Stealth wasn't really nerfed imo. Just changed. He can't perma-stealth anymore, but the attack speed buff was unchanged and he gained a pretty nice movespeed boost in exchange for losing the long-term stealth. Since he's meant to be played as an AD carry instead of a roaming ganker, it's a great change. Long term stealth is worthless if you're not going to be roaming and ganking.
Expunge was overall buffed. It's weaker level 1, but that's about it. No longer removing poison stacks does a lot for Twitch's overall damage. It also scales with AD instead of just AP; that's pretty big buff.
|
On August 03 2012 11:52 zer0das wrote:
Twitch's slow was nerfed... on paper. In a pratical situation it's much much better because you don't have to stack deadly venom (just hit a skillshot) and it instantly can coat multiple people and adds stacks of deadly venom. The stealth doesn't really affect his laning that much at all- it makes roaming around mid-game less rewarding, but it's actually a buff if you're just sticking around in lane because you get a speed boost after you're in stealth making it easier to pursue and kill people. Expunge got an AD ratio that is nutters, I'll take that over some early game damage, especially given it's so much easier to apply stacks of deadly venom. Also, expunge doesn't even consume deadly venom now.
Then you look at his team fight capabilities: if you coat the entire enemy team with deadly venom (a lot easier since the number of bolts scales with attack speed now) with spray and pray and use expunge, and you have around 180 bonus AD (not crazy since that's an IE+BT), you're doing around 3k damage before resists to their entire enemy team, plus whatever true damage you're doing, not to mention the spray and pray bolt itself. On top of this you have a speed boost when you drop into stealth and a massive slow. How is this not better? The old Twitch couldn't even hope to do anywhere near this amount of damage, just relied upon auto-attacks and his attack speed.
If you were hitting that many people with the old spray and pray bolts you'd already have done many times that much more damage with the old ult without the damage reduction and killed the enemy team before your 7 shots wore off.
|
On August 03 2012 12:04 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 11:52 zer0das wrote:
Twitch's slow was nerfed... on paper. In a pratical situation it's much much better because you don't have to stack deadly venom (just hit a skillshot) and it instantly can coat multiple people and adds stacks of deadly venom. The stealth doesn't really affect his laning that much at all- it makes roaming around mid-game less rewarding, but it's actually a buff if you're just sticking around in lane because you get a speed boost after you're in stealth making it easier to pursue and kill people. Expunge got an AD ratio that is nutters, I'll take that over some early game damage, especially given it's so much easier to apply stacks of deadly venom. Also, expunge doesn't even consume deadly venom now.
Then you look at his team fight capabilities: if you coat the entire enemy team with deadly venom (a lot easier since the number of bolts scales with attack speed now) with spray and pray and use expunge, and you have around 180 bonus AD (not crazy since that's an IE+BT), you're doing around 3k damage before resists to their entire enemy team, plus whatever true damage you're doing, not to mention the spray and pray bolt itself. On top of this you have a speed boost when you drop into stealth and a massive slow. How is this not better? The old Twitch couldn't even hope to do anywhere near this amount of damage, just relied upon auto-attacks and his attack speed. If you were hitting that many people with the old spray and pray bolts you'd already have done many times that much more damage with the old ult without the damage reduction and killed the enemy team before your 7 shots wore off.
unless the enemy team is lining up perfectly you would rarely hit more than 2-3 people with spray and pray bolts.
Say you're hitting 3 targets on average. Old ult meant you're doing 300% damage with each bolt, for a total of 2100% damage. New ult means you're doing 240% damage per bolt. This means that if you can hit 9 bolts of spray and pray in the 7 seconds it's up, you've now done more damage than old ult. Getting 9 bolts of spray and pray in 7 seconds is not at all unreasonable especially when considering Ambush's attack speed buff.
Let's say you have amazing positioning and the enemy is fucking stupid and line up perfectly for you. Old ult means you hit for 500% damage per bolt for a total of 3500% damage. New ult means you hit for 320% damage per bolt. This means you need to land 11 hits in the ult's 7 second duration to surpass old ult's damage. This means you need 1.571 attack speed, which is extremely easy to come by with PD+ambush.
New ult>old ult in every imaginable way.
|
On August 03 2012 12:09 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 12:04 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 03 2012 11:52 zer0das wrote:
Twitch's slow was nerfed... on paper. In a pratical situation it's much much better because you don't have to stack deadly venom (just hit a skillshot) and it instantly can coat multiple people and adds stacks of deadly venom. The stealth doesn't really affect his laning that much at all- it makes roaming around mid-game less rewarding, but it's actually a buff if you're just sticking around in lane because you get a speed boost after you're in stealth making it easier to pursue and kill people. Expunge got an AD ratio that is nutters, I'll take that over some early game damage, especially given it's so much easier to apply stacks of deadly venom. Also, expunge doesn't even consume deadly venom now.
Then you look at his team fight capabilities: if you coat the entire enemy team with deadly venom (a lot easier since the number of bolts scales with attack speed now) with spray and pray and use expunge, and you have around 180 bonus AD (not crazy since that's an IE+BT), you're doing around 3k damage before resists to their entire enemy team, plus whatever true damage you're doing, not to mention the spray and pray bolt itself. On top of this you have a speed boost when you drop into stealth and a massive slow. How is this not better? The old Twitch couldn't even hope to do anywhere near this amount of damage, just relied upon auto-attacks and his attack speed. If you were hitting that many people with the old spray and pray bolts you'd already have done many times that much more damage with the old ult without the damage reduction and killed the enemy team before your 7 shots wore off. unless the enemy team is lining up perfectly you would rarely hit more than 2-3 people with spray and pray bolts. Say you're hitting 3 targets on average. Old ult meant you're doing 300% damage with each bolt, for a total of 2100% damage. New ult means you're doing 240% damage per bolt. This means that if you can hit 9 bolts of spray and pray in the 7 seconds it's up, you've now done more damage than old ult. Getting 9 bolts of spray and pray in 7 seconds is not at all unreasonable especially when considering Ambush's attack speed buff.
That's reasonable. It just feels like a nerf to his potential damage when the enemy team is well clustered or lined up.
|
You weren't hitting 5 people with the old spray and pray unless the enemy team was really dumb and it was nearly point blank. The sheer amount of shots you get now makes it so that it's pretty realistic to hit almost everyone on the enemy team- not with every shot, but enough that most of them are coated with max stacks... sure.
|
On August 03 2012 12:11 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 12:09 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 03 2012 12:04 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 03 2012 11:52 zer0das wrote:
Twitch's slow was nerfed... on paper. In a pratical situation it's much much better because you don't have to stack deadly venom (just hit a skillshot) and it instantly can coat multiple people and adds stacks of deadly venom. The stealth doesn't really affect his laning that much at all- it makes roaming around mid-game less rewarding, but it's actually a buff if you're just sticking around in lane because you get a speed boost after you're in stealth making it easier to pursue and kill people. Expunge got an AD ratio that is nutters, I'll take that over some early game damage, especially given it's so much easier to apply stacks of deadly venom. Also, expunge doesn't even consume deadly venom now.
Then you look at his team fight capabilities: if you coat the entire enemy team with deadly venom (a lot easier since the number of bolts scales with attack speed now) with spray and pray and use expunge, and you have around 180 bonus AD (not crazy since that's an IE+BT), you're doing around 3k damage before resists to their entire enemy team, plus whatever true damage you're doing, not to mention the spray and pray bolt itself. On top of this you have a speed boost when you drop into stealth and a massive slow. How is this not better? The old Twitch couldn't even hope to do anywhere near this amount of damage, just relied upon auto-attacks and his attack speed. If you were hitting that many people with the old spray and pray bolts you'd already have done many times that much more damage with the old ult without the damage reduction and killed the enemy team before your 7 shots wore off. unless the enemy team is lining up perfectly you would rarely hit more than 2-3 people with spray and pray bolts. Say you're hitting 3 targets on average. Old ult meant you're doing 300% damage with each bolt, for a total of 2100% damage. New ult means you're doing 240% damage per bolt. This means that if you can hit 9 bolts of spray and pray in the 7 seconds it's up, you've now done more damage than old ult. Getting 9 bolts of spray and pray in 7 seconds is not at all unreasonable especially when considering Ambush's attack speed buff. That's reasonable. It just feels like a nerf to his potential damage when the enemy team is well clustered or lined up.
Just updated the math for assuming you hit all 5 targets.
I guess that old ult was much better for shredding squishies at the enemy's backline since there's no damage reduction, but it wasn't easy to hit the enemy's backline with Spray and Pray's splash in the first place unless they were extremely out of position or you flanked them. You can still flank them with new ult and if they're out of position they're gonna die anyways. New ult gives you the capability to deal much more damage overall.
|
On August 03 2012 10:36 Slusher wrote:
I see mabye 1-2 viktors a week, yet somehow enough people feel they know enough about viktor to make that thread travel at 10+ pages per hour.
I saw no Viktors for the last month I think.
|
watching teamless vs m5, zyra is ban/1stpick. :O didn't know she was that strong.
|
On August 03 2012 12:33 wei2coolman wrote:
watching teamless vs m5, zyra is ban/1stpick. :O didn't know she was that strong.
her in-lane burst is quite strong and her ulti is just ridiculous. She's very powerful and while she may or may not be OP, she probably hasn't been out long enough for people to figure out counters if there are any. Hence the ban/first pick.
|
On August 03 2012 12:42 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 12:33 wei2coolman wrote:
watching teamless vs m5, zyra is ban/1stpick. :O didn't know she was that strong. her in-lane burst is quite strong and her ulti is just ridiculous. She's very powerful and while she may or may not be OP, she probably hasn't been out long enough for people to figure out counters if there are any. Hence the ban/first pick.
They really need to fix her ulti. It's stupid how the damage is frontloaded but CC is 2ndry, it makes it very hard to deal with, Not to mention it's flingable >.< so silly....
|
On August 03 2012 12:33 wei2coolman wrote:
watching teamless vs m5, zyra is ban/1stpick. :O didn't know she was that strong.
Quote from Scarra: "There is no reason to ever pick Orianna because Zyra exists"
|
On August 03 2012 12:52 emperorchampion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 12:33 wei2coolman wrote:
watching teamless vs m5, zyra is ban/1stpick. :O didn't know she was that strong. Quote from Scarra: "There is no reason to ever pick Orianna because Zyra exists"
lolololol, kkk I understand the power of zyra now.
|
What's considered a good number of assists as a support (as in your assists/total kills by your team)? It probably matters from champ to champ, but I feel like it's a rough measure of how helpful you were-- like you were in the right place at the right time helping your teammate(s).
|
On August 03 2012 12:58 ticklishmusic wrote:
What's considered a good number of assists as a support (as in your assists/total kills by your team)? It probably matters from champ to champ, but I feel like it's a rough measure of how helpful you were-- like you were in the right place at the right time helping your teammate(s).
Look at the total kills for your team. How many of them could you have conceivably been around for? Excluding early game lane kills for mid/top, and fights where you were dead, you should assist every fight that you're nearby for. If you're Soraka, if you don't have assists for at least half of the kills in the game (thanks to your ult), increase situational awareness.
|
The more I think about it the more Diana + Twitch + AoE Stuns sounds like a horrible experience for the enemy team.
|
On August 03 2012 12:14 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 12:11 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 03 2012 12:09 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 03 2012 12:04 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 03 2012 11:52 zer0das wrote:
Twitch's slow was nerfed... on paper. In a pratical situation it's much much better because you don't have to stack deadly venom (just hit a skillshot) and it instantly can coat multiple people and adds stacks of deadly venom. The stealth doesn't really affect his laning that much at all- it makes roaming around mid-game less rewarding, but it's actually a buff if you're just sticking around in lane because you get a speed boost after you're in stealth making it easier to pursue and kill people. Expunge got an AD ratio that is nutters, I'll take that over some early game damage, especially given it's so much easier to apply stacks of deadly venom. Also, expunge doesn't even consume deadly venom now.
Then you look at his team fight capabilities: if you coat the entire enemy team with deadly venom (a lot easier since the number of bolts scales with attack speed now) with spray and pray and use expunge, and you have around 180 bonus AD (not crazy since that's an IE+BT), you're doing around 3k damage before resists to their entire enemy team, plus whatever true damage you're doing, not to mention the spray and pray bolt itself. On top of this you have a speed boost when you drop into stealth and a massive slow. How is this not better? The old Twitch couldn't even hope to do anywhere near this amount of damage, just relied upon auto-attacks and his attack speed. If you were hitting that many people with the old spray and pray bolts you'd already have done many times that much more damage with the old ult without the damage reduction and killed the enemy team before your 7 shots wore off. unless the enemy team is lining up perfectly you would rarely hit more than 2-3 people with spray and pray bolts. Say you're hitting 3 targets on average. Old ult meant you're doing 300% damage with each bolt, for a total of 2100% damage. New ult means you're doing 240% damage per bolt. This means that if you can hit 9 bolts of spray and pray in the 7 seconds it's up, you've now done more damage than old ult. Getting 9 bolts of spray and pray in 7 seconds is not at all unreasonable especially when considering Ambush's attack speed buff. That's reasonable. It just feels like a nerf to his potential damage when the enemy team is well clustered or lined up. Just updated the math for assuming you hit all 5 targets. I guess that old ult was much better for shredding squishies at the enemy's backline since there's no damage reduction, but it wasn't easy to hit the enemy's backline with Spray and Pray's splash in the first place unless they were extremely out of position or you flanked them. You can still flank them with new ult and if they're out of position they're gonna die anyways. New ult gives you the capability to deal much more damage overall.
Being able to shred the back line was a pretty big deal though. I don't think it's fair to say that the new ult is better in every way just because of that. I'll have to try him out again. Why can't he jungle any more?
1.571 attack speed is reasonable. I think that's around the attack speed you reach with pd, ambush, levels, and greaves as well as an enemy frozen heart at level 18. Before you get the PD though the old ult was better.
Honestly, the two main reasons I played twitch were because of his good early game ganks, and because his ult was so powerful. He gets revealed by being close to champions now so he can't sneak up on people with his ganks unless the lane is just at the right position to do a lane gank, and his ult deals less damage to back line champs. It seemed like they just nerfed him. They even made his slow targetable instead of hitting everything in a large radius. Twitch's old slow was amazing. If you needed to catch someone far away, it would function similar to GP ult in letting your team catch up to someone in late game fights. It was also great for slowing people even if they flashed.
I always maxed Q first on the old twitch because he likes AD so I figured it'd scale well with him, and expunge actually needed quite a few levels to start being significantly more useful than just his passive so the supposed buffs to his expunge seemed more like buffing irelia's ap ratios.
|
United States47024 Posts
To those who have tried Diana on PBE, is her pull really as wide as it looks in her champ profile video?
Because in the video, the diameter of the pull is almost as wide as the lane...
|
On August 03 2012 13:28 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 12:14 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 03 2012 12:11 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 03 2012 12:09 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 03 2012 12:04 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 03 2012 11:52 zer0das wrote:
Twitch's slow was nerfed... on paper. In a pratical situation it's much much better because you don't have to stack deadly venom (just hit a skillshot) and it instantly can coat multiple people and adds stacks of deadly venom. The stealth doesn't really affect his laning that much at all- it makes roaming around mid-game less rewarding, but it's actually a buff if you're just sticking around in lane because you get a speed boost after you're in stealth making it easier to pursue and kill people. Expunge got an AD ratio that is nutters, I'll take that over some early game damage, especially given it's so much easier to apply stacks of deadly venom. Also, expunge doesn't even consume deadly venom now.
Then you look at his team fight capabilities: if you coat the entire enemy team with deadly venom (a lot easier since the number of bolts scales with attack speed now) with spray and pray and use expunge, and you have around 180 bonus AD (not crazy since that's an IE+BT), you're doing around 3k damage before resists to their entire enemy team, plus whatever true damage you're doing, not to mention the spray and pray bolt itself. On top of this you have a speed boost when you drop into stealth and a massive slow. How is this not better? The old Twitch couldn't even hope to do anywhere near this amount of damage, just relied upon auto-attacks and his attack speed. If you were hitting that many people with the old spray and pray bolts you'd already have done many times that much more damage with the old ult without the damage reduction and killed the enemy team before your 7 shots wore off. unless the enemy team is lining up perfectly you would rarely hit more than 2-3 people with spray and pray bolts. Say you're hitting 3 targets on average. Old ult meant you're doing 300% damage with each bolt, for a total of 2100% damage. New ult means you're doing 240% damage per bolt. This means that if you can hit 9 bolts of spray and pray in the 7 seconds it's up, you've now done more damage than old ult. Getting 9 bolts of spray and pray in 7 seconds is not at all unreasonable especially when considering Ambush's attack speed buff. That's reasonable. It just feels like a nerf to his potential damage when the enemy team is well clustered or lined up. Just updated the math for assuming you hit all 5 targets. I guess that old ult was much better for shredding squishies at the enemy's backline since there's no damage reduction, but it wasn't easy to hit the enemy's backline with Spray and Pray's splash in the first place unless they were extremely out of position or you flanked them. You can still flank them with new ult and if they're out of position they're gonna die anyways. New ult gives you the capability to deal much more damage overall. Being able to shred the back line was a pretty big deal though. I don't think it's fair to say that the new ult is better in every way just because of that. I'll have to try him out again. Why can't he jungle any more? 1.571 attack speed is reasonable. I think that's around the attack speed you reach with pd, ambush, levels, and greaves as well as an enemy frozen heart at level 18. Before you get the PD though the old ult was better. Honestly, the two main reasons I played twitch were because of his good early game ganks, and because his ult was so powerful. He gets revealed by being close to champions now so he can't sneak up on people with his ganks unless the lane is just at the right position to do a lane gank, and his ult deals less damage to back line champs. It seemed like they just nerfed him. They even made his slow targetable instead of hitting everything in a large radius. Twitch's old slow was amazing. If you needed to catch someone far away, it would function similar to GP ult in letting your team catch up to someone in late game fights. It was also great for slowing people even if they flashed. I always maxed Q first on the old twitch because he likes AD so I figured it'd scale well with him, and expunge actually needed quite a few levels to start being significantly more useful than just his passive so the supposed buffs to his expunge seemed more like buffing irelia's ap ratios.
Not true. His stealth is like Shaco's stealth. Proximity to enemy champions does not reveal him. That's only Eve.
|
I read it.
I had a huge rant ready, but really, I've said it before.
He has already had 2 damage returned because he was over nerfed. He'll get more buffs before he's adequate. Paired with Orianna, he has great teamfighting potential with his and her ult. Otherwise, that 850 range and reduced damage is nice, but not going to be game breaking and high level use unless the other team makes a mistake. His initiation potential is good, but he has no free re-positioning without costing him and his team 3 seconds worth of AA damage.
As it stands, Twitch will not be FotM until more buffs happen.
I still miss how strong Morganna/Assassin Twitch lane was. Black shield for anti CC into dark binding engage into W slow on support and carry to prevent them from grouping together into extremely high single target damage at level 9. Or morg ult + Twitch w combo to split up lane and decimate them.
Now his damage is lower, his W is weaker, and his expunge is weaker until he gets 100 bonus AD. Yes, including true damage. He has 2 abilities that don't scale, and barely scale with points into them.
But really, I hope I'm wrong. I was an old Twitch player and love the hero, and as with many things, changes are met with resistance because I can't do things the old way successfully.
Random comment: If Riot wants people to learn the AD carry role before level 30, they gotta realize that last hiting without abilities under harassment with 49 damage is kinda hard and frustrating. AP or high ability farm champs are amazingly easier at low level games.
|
I'm just going to agree with moonbear and say that Twitch might be FotM in the future. Played like 10 games with him so far, and really enjoying how strong he is, and believe its very, very strong.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
