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On August 11 2012 08:01 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:The point is that I'm not really doing a cost-effect analysis here. Also you're assuming 40 dps in a 1v1 situation. Multiply that by 5 people and it's 200 dps. How does that change the calculation? Sunfire is huge in teamfights for both practical and psychological reasons, defensively and offensively. Everyone always does cost-analysis to determine whether or not an item is good or not. Well, you can go on justifying how much you're willing to pay for 1 ap or 1 ad or whatever--I know a good item when I see it, and Sunfire is amazing. [edit] Not to offend anyone who did calculations, I'm just more of a feel player  [/edit]
Uh, that's why I used singed aoe.
It's aoe, hence it hits multiple people. Which is why I used it. Because it's aoe.
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On August 11 2012 06:49 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 06:23 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On August 11 2012 05:36 greggy wrote:
Basically, according to some, chogath. Also if you want to troll. Otherwise, never. Man you guys are crazy, we were just talking last night about how strong Sunfire is and how little it gets built. It was like after you stopped being able to stack them and it took a small nerf people forgot about it altogether. It's crazy how good it is on a lot of champs. It's not bad, it's expensive and not worth it unless you're really rich. You're spending 800g to do like 20-30dps in a top lane, that's not really going to matter that much.
I'm not buying sunfire cape to win top lane, I'm buying sunfire cape to wreck teamfights.
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On August 11 2012 07:49 UniversalSnip wrote:
Assumption: building AP on singed is a reasonably costed way of getting damage on a tank (it is). Second assumption: his poison is comparable to sunfire (it is).
AP required to get 40 bonus dps is... a lot. 4k, a little more than a straight up Cap costs. However, we should also include fling, which has a 10 second cooldown and a 1.0 ap ratio, in other words an additional 0.1 per second ap ratio. Including fling, the ap required to get 40 dps is 134, which is 2680 gold worth. This compares unfavorably with sunfire's 800 gold for 40 dps.
You're right. I was thinking more along how sunfire would help him with smaller creep sizes.
On August 11 2012 07:37 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 07:31 obesechicken13 wrote:
I've always thought sunfire was a good item on people with no clearing speed. Like there are basically 4 farmy items in the game. More if you count AP items.
Sunfire, wriggles, ionic spark, and tiamat. I guess you can count madred's razor too.
For those creep waves that grow so big they'll take down a tower with no intervention, I think sunfire clears the fastest. And if you want the stats then you should get it. It's just a very clunky item to build since neither chain vest nor giants belt are items I can guarantee I'll get on my trips to fountain, and even if I can, there's a chance I can't get any wards because they cost so much. In short maybe I'd get it if I played poppy, shen, rammus, or maybe even fiddles (probably not since I like zhonyas too much). Wait since when does Rammus have creep clearing issues? His ult has a base CD of 60 seconds, and you often end up with a reasonable amount of CDR. If a creep wave is big enough is actually big enough to threaten a tower, you can often times just ult the wave.
I never really understand how singed can be so goddamn tanky and contribute so much mid game while building just a roa and merc treads. It makes no sense! The numbers don't add up. So naturally I've always questioned RoA on him. There are some things that need to be tested, like the poison will obviously hit people for longer than sunfire will.
Singed is actually one of the best examples in the game of a champion that is difficult to theorycraft for. I mean I'm never impressed by his numbers until I see them in game. His ult doesn't give as much armor or mr as rammus's W but it provides stats in everything and lasts longer than rammus' shield.
A couple months ago I remember riot saying singed was the only champion in the game they felt they really needed to change. That there was really nothing you could do against him. They didn't end up changing him, but I still hate facing singed players.
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On August 11 2012 08:04 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 08:01 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:The point is that I'm not really doing a cost-effect analysis here. Also you're assuming 40 dps in a 1v1 situation. Multiply that by 5 people and it's 200 dps. How does that change the calculation? Sunfire is huge in teamfights for both practical and psychological reasons, defensively and offensively. Everyone always does cost-analysis to determine whether or not an item is good or not. Well, you can go on justifying how much you're willing to pay for 1 ap or 1 ad or whatever--I know a good item when I see it, and Sunfire is amazing. [edit] Not to offend anyone who did calculations, I'm just more of a feel player [/edit] Uh, that's why I used singed aoe. It's aoe, hence it hits multiple people. Which is why I used it. Because it's aoe.
It's still apples to oranges, in my opinion, because it completely neglects the fact that you're building defensive items you probably need anyway and suddenly getting this awesome bonus dps.
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roa... rylais? Abyssal. none of those are 'weird' items on singed and they share the characteristics you're talking about.
I don't really understand why you reject an argument that confirms your own observations just because it uses "numbers"
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The discussion is about sunfire cape being a good item or not, not sunfire cape being a good item for SINGED or not. I'd still build it on him, for the record.
Basically I get it on anyone I build Abyssal/Rylais on that wants hp and armor and many bruisers including pantheon. If we're talking cost-analysis or empirical effects, it's stupid how good Giant's Belt is in the first place and during the midgame a Sunfire can completely change a teamfight if you get it on the right person. I don't care about cost. I know why I get an item when I get it and Sunfire is amazing.
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On August 11 2012 08:07 UniversalSnip wrote:
roa... rylais? Abyssal. none of those are 'weird' items on singed and they share the characteristics you're talking about.
I don't really understand why you reject an argument that confirms your own observations just because it uses "numbers"
I'M NOT REJECTING AN ARGUMENT, WHY DO YOU THINK I AM? I just said I'm not looking at it in terms of cost-effectiveness but intent and results.
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On August 11 2012 08:14 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
The discussion is about sunfire cape being a good item or not, not sunfire cape being a good item for SINGED or not. I'd still build it on him, for the record.
I'm not really comparing to other items on singed... well, my last post was, but that's a sidetrack, I'm just comparing it to other items generally. The class of defensive with an offensive component is actually pretty wide, and using singed lets you compare sunfire with some of them directly. There's nothing wrong with demonstrating with math that an item is really good at what it does.
I don't care about cost.
Yes you do. If this item cost 300 more you would never build it.
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On August 11 2012 08:06 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 08:04 UniversalSnip wrote:On August 11 2012 08:01 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:The point is that I'm not really doing a cost-effect analysis here. Also you're assuming 40 dps in a 1v1 situation. Multiply that by 5 people and it's 200 dps. How does that change the calculation? Sunfire is huge in teamfights for both practical and psychological reasons, defensively and offensively. Everyone always does cost-analysis to determine whether or not an item is good or not. Well, you can go on justifying how much you're willing to pay for 1 ap or 1 ad or whatever--I know a good item when I see it, and Sunfire is amazing. [edit] Not to offend anyone who did calculations, I'm just more of a feel player [/edit] Uh, that's why I used singed aoe. It's aoe, hence it hits multiple people. Which is why I used it. Because it's aoe. It's still apples to oranges, in my opinion, because it completely neglects the fact that you're building defensive items you probably need anyway and suddenly getting this awesome bonus dps.
Well, thats never been my question. My question was really basically: I have a Chainmail and a Giant's Belt + 800 G (or just 2600 G if you want). What do I buy? Lets ignore Singed for a second because he is an anomaly among tanky toplaners (IMO).
You could buy aegis for the teamwide aura, for 1925, go Giants belt + Warden's for ~ the same price. Randuins is 400G more than sunfire. Glacial shroud + GB is 25G more. GA is the same cost, but has no Health or DPS. Phage + GB is less.
This post is a mess, but this is what my thought process has been about this ever since I started thinking about it.
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I mean, people kinda say "40x5 = 200 dps on everyone in a teamfight", but that's not really true, is it. Even the supports will have ~40% magic reduction by the time you get sunfire (via runes/aegis/etc.), which translates into, say, 25 dps per person (even less for people who actually buy mr like toplanes and junglers, occasional mids). A fight will go on for maybe 10 seconds and then break off, where clearing up stage begins. In that time you did about 250 damage to everyone around you (assuming they all decided to bunch up and give you a friendly hug), which isn't exactly a lot, is it? Not to mention that if you get the sunfire you're probably either diving their carries or peeling for yours which means you won't be getting full benefit out of it.
I could potentially see the synergy between rylai/abyssal/sunfire, but heroes which buy any combination of those items are.. cho, amumu and morde? I can't think of anyone else off the top of my head for now.
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There's almost 0 chance you're going to hit more than 3 people with sunfire at a time and your time being in melee range even as a tank is numbered in a teamfight.
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On August 11 2012 08:21 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 08:14 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
The discussion is about sunfire cape being a good item or not, not sunfire cape being a good item for SINGED or not. I'd still build it on him, for the record. I'm not really comparing to other items on singed... well, my last post was, but that's a sidetrack, I'm just comparing it to other items generally. The class of defensive with an offensive component is actually pretty wide, and using singed lets you compare sunfire with some of them directly. There's nothing wrong with demonstrating with math that an item is really good at what it does.
Forgive this as another sidetrack, but although a lot of tanky dps build several items with both offensive and defensive stats, possibly spending even more gold on offense than PD and IE, they never get more DPS than they would if they just started the game with infinite gold and built IE PD. Then just built straight Defensive items from there. The point of items with offensive and defensive items is to give you some defensive and offensive stats at all points throughout the game.
This may seem obvious to some people, but chalice and haunting guise are items that are finally seeing use. Chalice because Riot's pushed for it with Athene's. Perhaps with how passive pro games are, we'll see tanky dps trying to get a PD and IE in pieces while getting straight defensive items, so they can be stronger late game.
For what it's worth I think sunfire is a fine item.
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On August 11 2012 08:21 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 08:14 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
The discussion is about sunfire cape being a good item or not, not sunfire cape being a good item for SINGED or not. I'd still build it on him, for the record. I'm not really comparing to other items on singed... well, my last post was, but that's a sidetrack, I'm just comparing it to other items generally. The class of defensive with an offensive component is actually pretty wide, and using singed lets you compare sunfire with some of them directly. There's nothing wrong with demonstrating with math that an item is really good at what it does. Yes you do. If this item cost 300 more you would never build it.
The point I'm making is that you're taking some arbitrary reference (singed has 0.8 ap ratio on whatever, OH BUT DON'T FORGET FLING so we reduce that number by...) and comparing damage output per AP to a chain mail + giant's belt. I don't see how that makes much sense at all. How come you didn't evaluate it in terms of Nautilus or Hecarim AoE? What about Fiddlesticks ult? What if Singed poison had a 2.5 AP ratio? Would any of that change anything at all about Sunfire Cape, except for the fact that it's not as cost effective on Singed because you can get more damage from AP?
No, it wouldn't, and that's why I don't compare it to a champion and do some weird cost-analysis with random variables I decided were significant.
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It's also a psychological thing: The first thing I think to myself when I see an Amumu with a Sunfire when I'm playing a dps that's not vayne is "well, I can't kill him anymore."
Also, practically, the EHP you get off of Sunfire Cape because of the HP + armor in addition to any other resists you have or will buy in the future is amazing.
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On August 11 2012 08:38 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
It's also a psychological thing: The first thing I think to myself when I see an Amumu with a Sunfire when I'm playing a dps that's not vayne is "well, I can't kill him anymore."
That's really stupid. You could just say that when you click tab and see chain vest. And how is that a bad thing? Oh I can't kill Amumu I should try to hit other targets.
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On August 11 2012 08:41 HazMat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 08:38 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
It's also a psychological thing: The first thing I think to myself when I see an Amumu with a Sunfire when I'm playing a dps that's not vayne is "well, I can't kill him anymore." That's really stupid.
I don't really understand why you're such a dick to me, Shake. I don't recall doing anything to you, ever. It's not stupid because this game is 90% psychological. You know and I know that nothing about this game is "hard" like other games with physical caps are. And come the fuck on, I'm making a point, not saying "herp derp amumu will never die again."
Please stop being such a huge dick to me every chance you get. I know you're like 19 or something, but seriously, I'm asking you nicely--stop being such a targeted asshole.
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On August 11 2012 08:41 HazMat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 08:38 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
It's also a psychological thing: The first thing I think to myself when I see an Amumu with a Sunfire when I'm playing a dps that's not vayne is "well, I can't kill him anymore." That's really stupid. You could just say that when you click tab and see chain vest. And how is that a bad thing? Oh I can't kill Amumu I should try to hit other targets.
Did you really edit your post to ask why not being able to kill an enemy champ is a bad thing
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Everyone in the game should have at least 43 mr. So you're spending 800 gold on a 0 armor increase and a 20hp increase with 25ish aoe dmg. I just can't justify that unless it's for split pushing or part of some weird mpen build.
This isn't personal, lol. Justifying a sunfire cape because it makes the enemy ad psychologically scared to hit you just doesn't make sense. I can't speak for everyone but I definitely don't see a reason why I should be scared of killing someone just because they have a sunfire cape.
It's 45 amor man, not 100, not 200, not a GA and not thornmail. It's 45 armor, the same as a chain vest. Only time I'd be scared to hit someone is if they have warden's or thornmail when I don't have a vamp scepter.
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On August 11 2012 08:37 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 08:21 UniversalSnip wrote:On August 11 2012 08:14 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
The discussion is about sunfire cape being a good item or not, not sunfire cape being a good item for SINGED or not. I'd still build it on him, for the record. I'm not really comparing to other items on singed... well, my last post was, but that's a sidetrack, I'm just comparing it to other items generally. The class of defensive with an offensive component is actually pretty wide, and using singed lets you compare sunfire with some of them directly. There's nothing wrong with demonstrating with math that an item is really good at what it does. I don't care about cost. Yes you do. If this item cost 300 more you would never build it. The point I'm making is that you're taking some arbitrary reference (singed has 0.8 ap ratio on whatever, OH BUT DON'T FORGET FLING so we reduce that number by...) and comparing damage output per AP to a chain mail + giant's belt. I don't see how that makes much sense at all. How come you didn't evaluate it in terms of Nautilus or Hecarim AoE? What about Fiddlesticks ult? What if Singed poison had a 2.5 AP ratio? Would any of that change anything at all about Sunfire Cape, except for the fact that it's not as cost effective on Singed because you can get more damage from AP? No, it wouldn't, and that's why I don't compare it to a champion and do some weird cost-analysis with random variables I decided were significant.
Because singed doesn't have some arbitrary ap ratios. Singed's ap ratios are how they are because that's what fits with how much gold damage can reasonably cost on a tank. What, do you think they rolled dice to decide if he'd have an 0.8 ratio or not? This comparison is just reverse engineering the process that resulted in these numbers. A huge part of what riot does balancing the game is keeping cost for value consistent with a scale they have in mind, simple stuff like this is pretty much input output.
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On August 11 2012 08:46 HazMat wrote:
Everyone in the game should have at least 43 mr. So you're spending 800 gold on a 0 armor increase and a 20hp increase with 25ish aoe dmg. I just can't justify that unless it's for split pushing or part of some weird mpen build.
This isn't personal, lol. Justifying a sunfire cape because it makes the enemy ad psychologically scared to hit you just doesn't make sense. I can't speak for everyone but I definitely don't see a reason why I should be scared of killing someone just because they have a sunfire cape.
It's 45 amor man, not 100, not 200, not a GA and not thornmail. It's 45 armor, the same as a chain vest.
It's not that you're scared to kill him, it's just that it's massively harder to do so. And if you evaluate it independently of each other sure you're gonna come up with shitty numbers but doesn't that extra 450 hp do anything when you combine it with that chain vest? It makes both of your resists from that point on stronger and let's think about it this way: If you have 800 gold, a chain vest, and a giant's belt, and you're playing any champ that could reasonably get sunfire cape (like... a champ you would build giant's belt and chain vest on in the first place), what can you do with your money that will make you more effective than upgrading sunfire? Stacking another chain mail might be OP or something but for some reason I never see anyone do it.
On August 11 2012 08:48 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 08:37 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On August 11 2012 08:21 UniversalSnip wrote:On August 11 2012 08:14 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
The discussion is about sunfire cape being a good item or not, not sunfire cape being a good item for SINGED or not. I'd still build it on him, for the record. I'm not really comparing to other items on singed... well, my last post was, but that's a sidetrack, I'm just comparing it to other items generally. The class of defensive with an offensive component is actually pretty wide, and using singed lets you compare sunfire with some of them directly. There's nothing wrong with demonstrating with math that an item is really good at what it does. I don't care about cost. Yes you do. If this item cost 300 more you would never build it. The point I'm making is that you're taking some arbitrary reference (singed has 0.8 ap ratio on whatever, OH BUT DON'T FORGET FLING so we reduce that number by...) and comparing damage output per AP to a chain mail + giant's belt. I don't see how that makes much sense at all. How come you didn't evaluate it in terms of Nautilus or Hecarim AoE? What about Fiddlesticks ult? What if Singed poison had a 2.5 AP ratio? Would any of that change anything at all about Sunfire Cape, except for the fact that it's not as cost effective on Singed because you can get more damage from AP? No, it wouldn't, and that's why I don't compare it to a champion and do some weird cost-analysis with random variables I decided were significant. Because singed doesn't have some arbitrary ap ratios. Singed's ap ratios are how they are because that's what fits with how much gold damage can reasonably cost on a tank. What, do you think they rolled dice to decide if he'd have an 0.8 ratio or not? This comparison is just reverse engineering the process that resulted in these numbers. A huge part of what riot does balancing the game is keeping cost for value consistent with a scale they have in mind, simple stuff like this is pretty much input output.
So let's frame it another way: I'm playing amumu and I have a chain vest + giant's belt. For 800 gold I can gain a permanent, free Singed Q. HOLY SHIT AMAZING VALUE!
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EPT
