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On August 11 2012 08:55 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 08:46 HazMat wrote:
Everyone in the game should have at least 43 mr. So you're spending 800 gold on a 0 armor increase and a 20hp increase with 25ish aoe dmg. I just can't justify that unless it's for split pushing or part of some weird mpen build.
This isn't personal, lol. Justifying a sunfire cape because it makes the enemy ad psychologically scared to hit you just doesn't make sense. I can't speak for everyone but I definitely don't see a reason why I should be scared of killing someone just because they have a sunfire cape.
It's 45 amor man, not 100, not 200, not a GA and not thornmail. It's 45 armor, the same as a chain vest. It's not that you're scared to kill him, it's just that it's massively harder to do so. And if you evaluate it independently of each other sure you're gonna come up with shitty numbers but doesn't that extra 450 hp do anything when you combine it with that chain vest? It makes both of your resists from that point on stronger and let's think about it this way: If you have 800 gold, a chain vest, and a giant's belt, and you're playing any champ that could reasonably get sunfire cape (like... a champ you would build giant's belt and chain vest on in the first place), what can you do with your money that will make you more effective than upgrading sunfire? Stacking another chain mail might be OP or something but for some reason I never see anyone do it. Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 08:48 UniversalSnip wrote:On August 11 2012 08:37 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On August 11 2012 08:21 UniversalSnip wrote:On August 11 2012 08:14 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
The discussion is about sunfire cape being a good item or not, not sunfire cape being a good item for SINGED or not. I'd still build it on him, for the record. I'm not really comparing to other items on singed... well, my last post was, but that's a sidetrack, I'm just comparing it to other items generally. The class of defensive with an offensive component is actually pretty wide, and using singed lets you compare sunfire with some of them directly. There's nothing wrong with demonstrating with math that an item is really good at what it does. I don't care about cost. Yes you do. If this item cost 300 more you would never build it. The point I'm making is that you're taking some arbitrary reference (singed has 0.8 ap ratio on whatever, OH BUT DON'T FORGET FLING so we reduce that number by...) and comparing damage output per AP to a chain mail + giant's belt. I don't see how that makes much sense at all. How come you didn't evaluate it in terms of Nautilus or Hecarim AoE? What about Fiddlesticks ult? What if Singed poison had a 2.5 AP ratio? Would any of that change anything at all about Sunfire Cape, except for the fact that it's not as cost effective on Singed because you can get more damage from AP? No, it wouldn't, and that's why I don't compare it to a champion and do some weird cost-analysis with random variables I decided were significant. Because singed doesn't have some arbitrary ap ratios. Singed's ap ratios are how they are because that's what fits with how much gold damage can reasonably cost on a tank. What, do you think they rolled dice to decide if he'd have an 0.8 ratio or not? This comparison is just reverse engineering the process that resulted in these numbers. A huge part of what riot does balancing the game is keeping cost for value consistent with a scale they have in mind, simple stuff like this is pretty much input output. So let's frame it another way: I'm playing amumu and I have a chain vest + giant's belt. For 800 gold I can gain a permanent, free Singed Q. HOLY SHIT AMAZING VALUE!
You could stick to giants belt and upgrade the chain vest to warden's mail or glacial shroud which is what everyone is saying.
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On August 11 2012 04:59 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 04:54 arb wrote:like that UI so much better than the other one, holy god im excited whats the 5 mean? (its prob something obvious that im overlooking) ALSO, are they reverting the mundo art change? Riot Art Dept AMAApparently the old pic we saw before (from a page or two are) was a datemined file from months ago. So it's out of date. Pretty cool of Riot to step in and say "yo dawg, that's really old shit, don't be bummed. Check this out" :O 5 is probably how many skill points you have available to allocate? I assume.
And the sad part is I based all my replies on this one and then read this and thought "oh okay maybe that shitty one was just the old one." Nope.
This is going to be awful.
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On August 11 2012 08:55 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
So let's frame it another way: I'm playing amumu and I have a chain vest + giant's belt. For 800 gold I can gain a permanent, free Singed Q. HOLY SHIT AMAZING VALUE!
that's close to accurate
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Let's not forget that Singed Q sticks to you and ticks even when you're out of range of it.
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On August 11 2012 08:57 HazMat wrote:
You could stick to giants belt and upgrade the chain vest to warden's mail or glacial shroud which is what everyone is saying.
And my point is that there are situations where you would want all 3, but a lot of situations where I'd want Sunfire have been coming up lately, like when I don't need THAT much armor, or when my teammate has a FH already, or when I think that Randuins later won't influence the game as much as a Sunfire now. I just think Sunfire is an amazing, underappreciated item that can completely snowball a game, probably because of all the Cho, Pantheon and Amumu I've been playing lately.
I guess I really value its ability to let me snowball more than anything.
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Fair enough. Though you shouldn't underestimate Warden's Mail before it's built into Omen's.
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And my point is that there are situations where you would want all 3, but a lot of situations where I'd want Sunfire have been coming up lately, like when I don't need THAT much armor, or when my teammate has a FH already, or when I think that Randuins later won't influence the game as much as a Sunfire now. I just think Sunfire is an amazing, underappreciated item that can completely snowball a game, probably because of all the Cho, Pantheon and Amumu I've been playing lately.
Personally I dont play bruisers that much and cant judge how good sunfire on those are mainly for splitpushing sake. But im pretty confident most bruisers/non ad players underestimate Wardensmail/Randuins that is by far the worst item to face (the passive effect is the strongest part) the ms slow when you attack guys with a wardensmail killed me so often ) :
Edit: for the record I think Sunfire is a horrible item and should only be build on people you really want to splitpush with (for example I think its decent for Shen) but most of the time an Ionic spark would be stronger in this case. Other popular Armor items (FH/Randuins) have some nice dmg reduction through AS slow inbuild and other options would be items which would increase your dmg further (ap or ad depends on what you play) or MR /health items like Frozen mallet. The non stat effect which sunfire offers(the immolation aura) is just not enough in my opinion
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Oh yeah here's another problem with sunfire: tower aggro
Also can give away bush stacking
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Yeah if you hit someone that has warden's you pretty much can't kite for the whole duration. Super lame.
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On August 11 2012 09:33 101toss wrote:
Oh yeah here's another problem with sunfire: tower aggro
Also can give away bush stacking
a team in OGN actually lost a game due to Frozen heart giving away brush stacking, not that I consider that a legit reason for not building one.
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Shoutout to Bezelheim for helping me carry that dumb game.
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i think sunfire is a good item
i wish it gave +5 armor and cost 100 less again, but it's not bad by any means atm
considering on a tank you'd be getting it on, you might already have like 3 other items (a philo, a hog, and boots / 2 d-blades and boots), and need slots for wards/pots, i think it's a decent slot-effective item
the buildup is a bit wonky but honestly the buildup is better than FH. you THINK that 2 cloth armors is a good buildup but then you back with 600g and instead of buying the chain vest you buy the 2 cloth armors and then your slots are FUCKED for like 10m while you try to farm up the whole FH and skip the glacial. can be a real pain in lanes that you're losing
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On August 11 2012 10:06 gtrsrs wrote:
i think sunfire is a good item
i wish it gave +5 armor and cost 100 less again, but it's not bad by any means atm
considering on a tank you'd be getting it on, you might already have like 3 other items (a philo, a hog, and boots / 2 d-blades and boots), and need slots for wards/pots, i think it's a decent slot-effective item
the buildup is a bit wonky but honestly the buildup is better than FH. you THINK that 2 cloth armors is a good buildup but then you back with 600g and instead of buying the chain vest you buy the 2 cloth armors and then your slots are FUCKED for like 10m while you try to farm up the whole FH and skip the glacial. can be a real pain in lanes that you're losing
Yea... if you back with 600G you shouldn't be buying 2x cloth armor 9 times out of 10.
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On August 11 2012 09:41 HazMat wrote:
Yeah if you hit someone that has warden's you pretty much can't kite for the whole duration. Super lame.
God those fights where darius is charging blindly at you and you're like ololol im just gonna kite you but he gets a randuins proc. Dead before the slow wears off herpderp
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Well if you back with 600G you won't be able to upgrade to SF lol. If you're at 800 then you can just upgrade to glacial.
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On August 11 2012 10:16 HazMat wrote:
Well if you back with 600G you won't be able to upgrade to SF lol. If you're at 800 then you can just upgrade to glacial.
yeah, i think my point was that if you're building FH you can noob-trap into 2 cloth armors but with sunfire you just force yourself to wait for your next back (which will probably be G-belt anyway)
but yeah they're both good items, i don't dislike either.
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On August 11 2012 10:18 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 10:16 HazMat wrote:
Well if you back with 600G you won't be able to upgrade to SF lol. If you're at 800 then you can just upgrade to glacial. yeah, i think my point was that if you're building FH you can noob-trap into 2 cloth armors but with sunfire you just force yourself to wait for your next back (which will probably be G-belt anyway) but yeah they're both good items, i don't dislike either.
So...your argument in favor of SFC is it prevents you from being an idiot?
Edit: Hashin dunking hard on Nintendude, kinda.
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no my argument in favor of SFC is that it does aoe dps while being slot efficient
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I have a good story about wardens mail
My jungler (malphite) comes bot and ganks ez. Ez e's away and then Q's malphite, trying to get a phage proc. Instead, he gets warden mail proc'd and dies
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On August 11 2012 10:31 gtrsrs wrote:
no my argument in favor of SFC is that it does aoe dps while being slot efficient
I want that to be true so I can run SFC on all my bruisers (then change my Summoner name to District 13). Maybe I need to bust out spreadsheets.
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EPT
