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United States47024 Posts
On August 11 2012 00:36 wei2coolman wrote:
flat health is much stronger early on, than resistances.
Why do I need to buy Randuin's components early game?
If I want to buy Randuin's, I buy Warden's first. If I don't want Randuin's yet, I don't buy Randuin's parts. Why is this hard to understand?
On August 11 2012 00:33 wei2coolman wrote:
*i'm still butthurt about hog nerf.
HoG was still a handicap even before the nerf. They just made it a bigger more obvious one.
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The greatness of Randuin's isn't the heart of gold (though people like it to be), the warden mail passive and later on the warden mail passive with randuin's active is the biggest part of why it's really good. Screw heart of gold now... -50hp for same cost nothx.
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On August 11 2012 00:37 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 00:36 wei2coolman wrote:
flat health is much stronger early on, than resistances. Why do I need to buy Randuin's components early game? If I want to buy Randuin's, I buy Warden's first. If I don't want Randuin's yet, I don't buy Randuin's parts. Why is this hard to understand?
Because sometimes you want survivability through health.
hog still very viable 2nd gp10 item. especially if you can afford to get it early on.
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On August 11 2012 00:37 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 00:36 wei2coolman wrote:
flat health is much stronger early on, than resistances. Why do I need to buy Randuin's components early game? If I want to buy Randuin's, I buy Warden's first. If I don't want Randuin's yet, I don't buy Randuin's parts. Why is this hard to understand? Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 00:33 wei2coolman wrote:
*i'm still butthurt about hog nerf. HoG was still a handicap even before the nerf. They just made it a bigger more obvious one.
If you want to buy Randuins you buy hog really really early so you get your randuins cheaper doh. Ignoring the fact that you're gimping yourself and paying way too much for the hp.
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On August 11 2012 00:38 Milestone wrote:
The greatness of Randuin's isn't the heart of gold (though people like it to be), the warden mail passive and later on the warden mail passive with randuin's active is the biggest part of why it's really good. Screw heart of gold now... -50hp for same cost nothx.
The greatness of randuin's is everything about it. Smooth powercurve build up, there's no "big" cost step, in which you're handicapping yourself for a long time before finally getting an item.
Hog, cost inefficient upon purchase, yes. But if you got the early gold, need health, is there a better choice? Only takes 5min for it to pay for its inefficiencies, and then, another 5 min for it to pay itself completely off.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 11 2012 00:38 wei2coolman wrote:
Because sometimes you want survivability through health.
hog still very viable 2nd gp10 item. especially if you can afford to get it early on.
And HoG is the only HP item in the game? Kindlegem, Giant's Belt, or even a naked Ruby Crystal that becomes Aegis don't exist apparently?
On August 11 2012 00:39 wei2coolman wrote:
The greatness of randuin's is everything about it. Smooth powercurve build up, there's no "big" cost step, in which you're handicapping yourself for a long time before finally getting an item.
Spending 800 gold to get 500 gold worth of health counts as a handicap.
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On August 11 2012 00:40 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 00:38 wei2coolman wrote:
Because sometimes you want survivability through health.
hog still very viable 2nd gp10 item. especially if you can afford to get it early on. And HoG is the only HP item in the game? Kindlegem, Giant's Belt, or even a naked Ruby Crystal that becomes Aegis don't exist apparently? Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 00:39 wei2coolman wrote:
The greatness of randuin's is everything about it. Smooth powercurve build up, there's no "big" cost step, in which you're handicapping yourself for a long time before finally getting an item. Spending 800 gold to get 500 gold worth of health counts as a handicap.
Not if you hold it long enough for it to pay for the 300 difference....
i'm guessing no one here understands investments?
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On August 11 2012 00:39 wei2coolman wrote:
Hog, cost inefficient upon purchase, yes. But if you got the early gold, need health, is there a better choice? Only takes 5min for it to pay for its inefficiencies, and then, another 5 min for it to pay itself completely off.
that's not true though
buy a HoG, watch in game as it counts how much gold you've earned
it takes like 28 minutes for it to get to 825 gold
definitely definitely not worth it
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On August 11 2012 00:43 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 00:39 wei2coolman wrote:
Hog, cost inefficient upon purchase, yes. But if you got the early gold, need health, is there a better choice? Only takes 5min for it to pay for its inefficiencies, and then, another 5 min for it to pay itself completely off. that's not true though buy a HoG, watch in game as it counts how much gold you've earned it takes like 28 minutes for it to get to 825 gold definitely definitely not worth it
Only half that considering, if you bought it strictly for health early on you can just sell it.
Not to mention it's still a required item for later item choice (randuins), and you still want to make the most of what your gold is worth, it's not a bad idea to purchase it if you can afford it early on.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 11 2012 00:41 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 00:40 TheYango wrote:On August 11 2012 00:38 wei2coolman wrote:
Because sometimes you want survivability through health.
hog still very viable 2nd gp10 item. especially if you can afford to get it early on. And HoG is the only HP item in the game? Kindlegem, Giant's Belt, or even a naked Ruby Crystal that becomes Aegis don't exist apparently? On August 11 2012 00:39 wei2coolman wrote:
The greatness of randuin's is everything about it. Smooth powercurve build up, there's no "big" cost step, in which you're handicapping yourself for a long time before finally getting an item. Spending 800 gold to get 500 gold worth of health counts as a handicap. Not if you hold it long enough for it to pay for the 300 difference.... i'm guessing no one here understands investments?
You're the one who doesn't understand them.
300 gold value now is worth more than 300 gold later, because 300 gold in stats now can be used to take objectives and win fights, meaning that its created more than 300 gold worth of advantage by the time HoG has generated 300 gold.
It's possible to have a scenario where you're buying a gp10 item at a point in time when immediate stats CAN'T be turned into an advantage, but:
1) the active and mobile nature of a jungler means they can ALWAYS turn bonus gold/stats into an advantage in some way
2) The timing of a second gp10 item comes around the time when teamfights over objectives like Dragon are starting to become significant.
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On August 11 2012 00:47 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 00:41 wei2coolman wrote:On August 11 2012 00:40 TheYango wrote:On August 11 2012 00:38 wei2coolman wrote:
Because sometimes you want survivability through health.
hog still very viable 2nd gp10 item. especially if you can afford to get it early on. And HoG is the only HP item in the game? Kindlegem, Giant's Belt, or even a naked Ruby Crystal that becomes Aegis don't exist apparently? On August 11 2012 00:39 wei2coolman wrote:
The greatness of randuin's is everything about it. Smooth powercurve build up, there's no "big" cost step, in which you're handicapping yourself for a long time before finally getting an item. Spending 800 gold to get 500 gold worth of health counts as a handicap. Not if you hold it long enough for it to pay for the 300 difference.... i'm guessing no one here understands investments? You're the one who doesn't understand them. 300 gold value now is worth more than 300 gold later, because 300 gold in stats now can be used to take objectives and win fights, meaning that its created more than 300 gold worth of advantage by the time HoG has generated 300 gold. It's possible to have a scenario where you're buying a gp10 item at a point in time when immediate stats CAN'T be turned into an advantage, but: 1) the active and mobile nature of a jungler means they can ALWAYS turn bonus gold/stats into an advantage in some way 2) The timing of a second gp10 item comes around the time when teamfights over objectives like Dragon are starting to become significant.
you say that like you can quantify the expenditure of ruby crystal + cloth armor, over an early hog, in a early teamfight.
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Because... heart of gold recipe gives a total of 20HP and cloth armor gives oh.. look +18 armor... I wonder what I want in a teamfight that will likely decide how the game will flow (dragon or a large-scale engagement).
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the best is when the enemy gets hog in toplane. irelia vs olaf has never been so easy rofl. start 0-2 and 2 levels behind from jungler and mid gank -> solo kill him 3 times because he wasted his money and cannot trade with me. "but i get money later!!!!!" ya dont worry ur only gonna be useless for 20 minutes then become GODLIKE with ur extra 100 gold at the end of the game right? hurrdurr
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On August 11 2012 00:54 Milestone wrote:
Because... heart of gold recipe gives a total of 20HP and cloth armor gives oh.. look +18 armor... I wonder what I want in a teamfight that will likely decide how the game will flow (dragon or a large-scale engagement).
Can you quantify if that's the key difference in a large scale engagement, vs what it'll be worth later on in game?
Unless you're escaping with sub 50 health due to physical attacks in teamfight engagements, it's hard to quantify the "now" strength of cloth armor, vs the "later" strength of gold from hog.
ESSENTIALLY IN SC2 terms:
Fast expand or Early timing attack.
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What I do nowadays is get philo and anal beads and never buy a health pot again other than at the start of the game.
Fuck hog.That's on udyr at least.
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Currently I think Phage is superior to HoG in almost every situation, I just don't see the reason in getting HoG anymore.
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HoG is nice to get if the game is skirmishes and small ganks with junglers only (western solo q and competitive to some extent). But if the game is being pressured actively by a coordinated enemy more efficient items (if you are looking to respond to their aggression) r useful imo
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On August 11 2012 00:55 De4ngus wrote:
the best is when the enemy gets hog in toplane. irelia vs olaf has never been so easy rofl. start 0-2 and 2 levels behind from jungler and mid gank -> solo kill him 3 times because he wasted his money and cannot trade with me. "but i get money later!!!!!" ya dont worry ur only gonna be useless for 20 minutes then become GODLIKE with ur extra 100 gold at the end of the game right? hurrdurr
^ This
The only scenario where gp10 is really superior to most item paths is when you farm for 40+ min and take no objectives, but when was the last time that happened?
"But philo+hog gives me gp10, so i get gold while ganking" - yeah but your ganks are fucking shit cus you basicly gimped yourself for passive gold. 15 hp5, 8 mp5 and 200 hp isn't worth it when i could have phage or have both components for wits.
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On August 11 2012 01:01 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Currently I think Phage is superior to HoG in almost every situation, I just don't see the reason in getting HoG anymore.
Considering cost, and the champion pool that uses phage~, Don't think it's all that comparable, thought there are definitely some champions this applies to.
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On August 11 2012 00:00 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 23:59 sylverfyre wrote:
Man, if you think that Diana has such trivial mana costs they might as well not be there, you haven't played her much. Her shield is pretty costly, and her QR are moderately cheap, but designed to be used often - I'd put her mana reliance on par with Skarner. Agree about Darius and Draven though -.-; i've played her a ton and never run out of mana x_x her shield might have a realistic mana cost, but i don't use it a ton. her other 3 skills are just like zzzzfree
Her Q actually drains mana faster than Skarner Q early on. With my build the mana regen on Chalice and mana pool from Glacial are pretty important when ganking/teamfighting because it's very easy to run out of mana spamming Q+W+R.
The greater issue of mana regen is extremely tricky. Though I tend to agree that Riot's direction with this is bland, it's difficult to appreciate just how complicated the problem is.
First and foremost, current mana regen itemization is fairly horrible. Because of LoL's mechanics and practical reality it is almost always better to invest in more damage than to invest in mana regen. It is telling that despite the potential for Chalice to yield a whopping 35.8 mp5 from a single item (approximately 2000g worth of stats), it was very rarely purchased before it was a component of a damage item. Mana regen is simply too costly for too little benefit.
Second, mana regen itemization is utterly terrible. A bruiser or AD looking for mana regen is limited to Manamune, Philo/Reverie, Soul Shroud, and Tiama; two support items, a troll item, and one item actually tailored to the needs of an AD. In short, if you aren't an AP carry or support you're hosed when it comes to mana regen.
Third, AD bruisers have enough problems without worrying about mana. Becoming tanky enough to survive in a teamfight is difficult enough for a bruiser as it stands. Even if there were AD/bruiser oriented mana regen items to build, forcing bruisers to invest their gold in mana regen instead of defense/offense would push them out of competition altogether. The manaless bruisers would go from having a notable advantage to simply being the only viable options.
So the "right" way to do things would be to reevaluate mana regen's worth versus its cost, introduce new AD/bruiser oriented mana regen items, and rebalance bruisers. Riot has instead opted to simply make mana a non-issue for everyone except APs and supports. That's not the "right" way it's the bland way, but given the complicated scope of the problem I can understand why they'd take things in that direction.
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