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Hmm. Just looking through the few high ELO supports that I know in games where they play support
Nhat nguyen has built HoG every game.
Spellsy has built HoG every game.
Muffinqt has built HoG every game.
Xpecial has built HoG every game.
Gosupepper has built HoG every game.
Lemonnation has built HoG every game.
Zekent has built HoG every game.
I'm starting to see a pattern here, you?
It's still a really good item on a support. Losing that 50hp means you lose one autoattack of health. It might make a difference but really, at the point in time where you get a HoG, that 50hp isn't particularly huge in comparison to your total health.
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Ok you see a pattern. Now can you tell me, why is that pattern good? Cus to me, it seems like time will show that people will eventually skip hog on supports (nobody runs gp10 runes anymore either) because it's bad.
It's only been 8 days since patch release and though i've seen some people getting hog in online tourneys i assume it will be skipped entirely at some point, when they realize that it isn't worth it.
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I saw no mention in this guide about one of the single most important thing a support needs to do; keep track of placement and timer of every ward placed in bottom lane. Nothing is more annoying than being told after you're already there that something is warded. It isn't that difficult, you see the ward you type the timer and ping it, if you don't see the ward estimate the timer and say where he probably warded. If the support disappears and comes back to lane without a ward, you say the support warded something. It's something every support should do, but the gross majority (90%+) don't do it.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 27 2012 17:52 Lmui wrote:
Hmm. Just looking through the few high ELO supports that I know in games where they play support
Nhat nguyen has built HoG every game.
Spellsy has built HoG every game.
Muffinqt has built HoG every game.
Xpecial has built HoG every game.
Gosupepper has built HoG every game.
Lemonnation has built HoG every game.
Zekent has built HoG every game.
I'm starting to see a pattern here, you?
It's still a really good item on a support. Losing that 50hp means you lose one autoattack of health. It might make a difference but really, at the point in time where you get a HoG, that 50hp isn't particularly huge in comparison to your total health.
The LoL community is notoriously bad at responding to changes in a timely manner, even when they're very drastic and very obviously require re-evaluation of how you play.
As far as arguments for HoG, "pro supports are still building it" doesn't hold as much weight as you think it does.
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On July 27 2012 17:52 Lmui wrote:
Hmm. Just looking through the few high ELO supports that I know in games where they play support
Nhat nguyen has built HoG every game.
Spellsy has built HoG every game.
Muffinqt has built HoG every game.
Xpecial has built HoG every game.
Gosupepper has built HoG every game.
Lemonnation has built HoG every game.
Zekent has built HoG every game.
I'm starting to see a pattern here, you?
It's still a really good item on a support. Losing that 50hp means you lose one autoattack of health. It might make a difference but really, at the point in time where you get a HoG, that 50hp isn't particularly huge in comparison to your total health.
Krepo also builds HoG every game.
But he also only plays tankier supports  (barring soraka)
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United States47024 Posts
On July 26 2012 19:26 arb wrote:
still feel so poor without hog, esp on support.
The whole "I feel poor on supports without HoG" thing is entirely misguided perception. Mathematically, HoG takes way too long to breakeven for that perception to really have any basis. Assuming you just ignored HoG and proceeded to build your next item (be it Aegis, Shurelya's, whatever), HoG's cost-ineffectiveness should mean that you actually feel WEAKER with HoG for a good 10-12 minutes.
Assuming HoG at 15 minutes (any sooner and you're either very lucky in getting kills/towers/dragons), you don't even break even until 25-27 minutes. Past that point, you STILL shouldn't feel any difference in how rich you are until HoG generates enough money to be worth a component item (you can't really "feel poorer" if you're down 100 gold because that 100 gold can't actually buy anything anyway), meaning it takes another 10 minutes for HoG to generate the 300 gold that a Cloth Armor is worth--the cheapest component item that you would realistically buy. Given an average game is only 35-40 minutes, the difference between buying HoG and not shouldn't make you feel noticeably poorer until pretty much the very end of the game. And that's assuming that pushing forward the timing of key items like Aegis and Shurelya's didn't translate into a gold advantage through taking objectives with them.
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Yes you can get your shurelya's/aegis faster but your second major item beyond that is going to be really slow. If you build shurelya's first, you have no gp10 beyond your runes/masteries/passive gp10.
13gp10 passive
2gp10 masteries
5*gp10 runes
for 20gp10. For aegis, you're going to need 17 minutes before you can afford it, not including assists/kills/ward costs
*If you don't have gp10 seals, it'll take even longer.
Just grabbing times from a replay I have where I did poorly, 0/5/10 on taric, going philo -> boots -> HoG. This is a bit more representative of a game situation since wards are bought and used pretty consistently. I run GP10 quints and the gp10 masteries.
~9:00 philo
~17:30 HoG - At this point I'm 0/2/0 in lane.
~28:00 Aegis+oracles - Got a dragon and a few assists at this point.
~36:00 Shurelya's. -Got a lot of assists and baron in this timespan
You would have the shurelya's at around 21-22 minutes or so in a poor game, where you don't get much money from dragons/towers. There would be no difference in your tankiness in lane from 0:00-21:00 or whenever you buy a big item. If you want aegis first, you'd be holding out until ~24-25 minutes to buy it.
Theorycrafting a bit, if I had gone shurelya's first, 1400 gold from the point where I get HoG is going to come at around 25 minutes or so, a bit before I'd get an aegis. I'd get aegis from there at around 38 minutes instead. If I had skipped a HoG altogether, going shurelya's first, I'd have trouble affording an aegis before 40 minutes if I had to buy wards and oracles as well with just the passive gp10.
tl;dr: HoG delays your first major item by like 3-4 minutes at most and helps you get your second major item faster. There's literally no reason to not get a HoG.
Also, GP10 quints are pretty much mandatory on all supports besides alistar/taric/leona who sometimes run MS.
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United States47024 Posts
Your item timings are about right, but your conclusion is off. Average game length runs between 35 and 40 minutes, so realistically, items bought after 35 minutes are very often simply bought in the process of closing out a won game, or making a last stand in a clearly lost game. Pushing up that first major item timing by 3-4 minutes is FAR more likely to have a real impact on the game's outcome.
You're making the assumption that Aegis 3-4 minutes earlier does not create a timing advantage that allows your team to take an objective and make back gold (which very often it can) or conversely that having 300 gold less of itemized stats doesn't hurt your laning/teamfighting power (which it also definitely can).
On July 27 2012 18:41 Lmui wrote:
There would be no difference in your tankiness in lane from 0:00-21:00 or whenever you buy a big item.
I maintain this isn't true. A support with Ruby+Cloth should noticeably out-trade a support with HoG.
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How is HoG gonna get you your second item faster? You got your hog after 17½ min and your second major item at 36.00. That's 18½ min where you sit on your hog letting it generate gold for you, but it hasn't even paid for itself yet (that takes 27½ min) meaning you purposely delayed your second major item, hoping that HoG will make use to you.
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United States47024 Posts
Yeah, HoG very rarely pays itself off 100%. It becomes cost-effective eventually, but in terms of actual item timing, it only serves to delay items.
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The game I took the times/numbers out of was a ~46 minute game. Laning went long until ~19 minutes. It was a close game (within 2k of each other for last ~6 minutes) until the final teamfight and towers started falling and surrender came out. If you can take advantage of the 3-5 minute window where skipping the HoG to get faster items, it'll have been worth it but after you get the big item, you're paying for every second that you can't make something happen with it.
Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 18:41 Lmui wrote:
There would be no difference in your tankiness in lane from 0:00-21:00 or whenever you buy a big item. I maintain this isn't true. A support with Ruby+Cloth should noticeably out-trade a support with HoG.
This statement was in reference to getting kindlegem vs HoG but yes, I agree that a ruby+cloth is tankier than the 200hp in any case.
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just dont get your HOG too late and its fine
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On July 27 2012 19:10 zulu_nation8 wrote:
just dont get your HOG too late and its fine
how late is too late? show your math
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HoG is pretty much never going to pay for itself but it does give health, ~540 gold worth of it. 9.5 minutes after you buy it, it starts generating gold considering the health portion.
Math says that HoG won't pay for itself and get the second item quicker so I'll cede that point.
In all honesty though, item timings haven't changed at since the gp10 runes were introduced and people still got HoG on supports for the last I don't know how long. The ONLY thing that's changed has been the 50 health decrease, ~135 gold worth of stats or 4.5 minutes worth of gp10 from the HoG itself.
Inertia in items and builds is pretty heavy but I don't see how to change that. Locket as a 2nd/3rd big item is the point when getting the HoG is 100% better than not getting a HoG to start.
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On July 27 2012 19:26 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 19:10 zulu_nation8 wrote:
just dont get your HOG too late and its fine how late is too late? show your math
If you do get a HoG, it's pretty difficult to get it any later than 17 minutes, the time I got in my terrible game. We had no objectives, I had 2 cs and I was 0/2/0. That's including the fact that I went philo -> boots -> HoG. FWIW my team did wind up winning that game since the other team threw a bit and taric ulti is pretty strong regardless of score.
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It would just be better to skip HoG entirely like i said previously, unless you can give me some solid proof that it's worth it in some scenarios.
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On July 27 2012 18:41 Lmui wrote:
Yes you can get your shurelya's/aegis faster but your second major item beyond that is going to be really slow. If you build shurelya's first, you have no gp10 beyond your runes/masteries/passive gp10.
13gp10 passive
2gp10 masteries
5*gp10 runes
for 20gp10. For aegis, you're going to need 17 minutes before you can afford it, not including assists/kills/ward costs
*If you don't have gp10 seals, it'll take even longer.
Just grabbing times from a replay I have where I did poorly, 0/5/10 on taric, going philo -> boots -> HoG. This is a bit more representative of a game situation since wards are bought and used pretty consistently. I run GP10 quints and the gp10 masteries.
~9:00 philo
~17:30 HoG - At this point I'm 0/2/0 in lane.
~28:00 Aegis+oracles - Got a dragon and a few assists at this point.
~36:00 Shurelya's. -Got a lot of assists and baron in this timespan
You would have the shurelya's at around 21-22 minutes or so in a poor game, where you don't get much money from dragons/towers. There would be no difference in your tankiness in lane from 0:00-21:00 or whenever you buy a big item. If you want aegis first, you'd be holding out until ~24-25 minutes to buy it.
Theorycrafting a bit, if I had gone shurelya's first, 1400 gold from the point where I get HoG is going to come at around 25 minutes or so, a bit before I'd get an aegis. I'd get aegis from there at around 38 minutes instead. If I had skipped a HoG altogether, going shurelya's first, I'd have trouble affording an aegis before 40 minutes if I had to buy wards and oracles as well with just the passive gp10.
tl;dr: HoG delays your first major item by like 3-4 minutes at most and helps you get your second major item faster. There's literally no reason to not get a HoG.
Also, GP10 quints are pretty much mandatory on all supports besides alistar/taric/leona who sometimes run MS. How is HoG only delaying your major item by 3-4 minutes at most? It's delaying it by 800 gold. If you had a ruby and a cloth with that same 800 gold (technically 50 gold less), you're almost halfway to aegis, AND have significantly more survivability than you would if you had just a HoG. If you had a kindlegem instead, you'd have more CDR which could make or break something else (but this is much harder to measure)
That extra survivability from random aegis bits might have even saved you a death, which is 300 gold denied to the enemy team - more important than getting gold yourself is keeping gold from getting into the enemy carry hands.
18 armor is like 180 EHP vs physical damage (Since you'll have around 1k health at this point)
There's this perception that you're spending your gp10 money on wards, but you're really spending most of your gp10 money it on HAVING A GP10 ITEM. Most games don't go super-duper late and if they do then you should be fine with your assist/objective money.
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Also it doesn't hurt to steal some CS if you REALLY need gold for wards and/or items (like the game where lmui had 0-2-0 and his team didn't get any objectives) especially killing the small camps later in the game is quite useful. Like most AD carries up untill a very high elo don't hard-push the lane before they recall. This will leave you a small cap of 8-10 creeps that you can get without anyone complaining.
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i think the problem with stacking gp/10 lies with the 0 cs idea behind the current meta in the first place. i think having the AD carry pick up the majority or all the farm in early laning is perfectly understandable (especially considering how you don't lose gold on death etc. as compared to dota and the relative gold gain per sec compared to gold gained on cs is fairly high since you can't lose it on death). however, i think a support roaming to hold other lanes while mid lane goes to gank, to apply more map pressure while a jungler for instance could apply pressure on bottom to ensure his ad carry's farm especially when there are no major map objectives elsewhere he needs to keep pressure on, and no / not very many camps up (or an ap mid as well) are ideas that people should consider more. these kinds of sweeping changes will not be made by any but an organized team that meets success however, so it is unlikely to see any such change anytime soon.
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EPT
