EPTNow consider that philo also got nerfed in this patch. It didn't lose as many raw stats as hog, but the difference between 50 hp and 3/hp5 is not actually that far off. Hp regen is just much less visible. You still autobuy philo because it was a much better item to start with than hog, but when you buy two gp5, you're basically getting hit by the nerf twice.
[Role] Support - Page 6
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
Now consider that philo also got nerfed in this patch. It didn't lose as many raw stats as hog, but the difference between 50 hp and 3/hp5 is not actually that far off. Hp regen is just much less visible. You still autobuy philo because it was a much better item to start with than hog, but when you buy two gp5, you're basically getting hit by the nerf twice. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
charm/wards/pots -> boots/philo -> kindlegem -> aegis -> shurelia -> flavor i've been running this on janna, taric, alistar, soraka, leona... everyone but nunu basically. i'm pretty sure this is the optimal support build at the moment, the defensive stats you can get for the cost follow the enemy's power curve nicely. you become quite tanky for a support in mid-game, with taric it's especially noticable. i'll generally get the aegis before kindlegem if i feel a pressing need for defensive stats, sometimes i'll have kindle/cloth/null and then finish the aegis. If the lane is going well I'll get kindlegem first. CDR is godlike for clutch situations and that's where my preferred supports (janna, taric/leona/ali to a lesser extent) thrive note the lack of a second gp10. i run MS/Mpen/Armor/Mres on janna/taric and i never have problems buying wards or completing items at a reasonable clip. make plays to get gold! | ||
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
If i'm playing support i feel like i want 3 major things: 1) Auras for my team 2) Tankiness through health, armor and magic resists 3) CDR Number 1 is pretty easy to achieve. There's plenty of items in this game which provides me with auras i can give to my team, but mainly the 3 most commonly used items on supports are reverie, aegis and zeke's. Number 2 is achieved by purchasing aegis, since it gives all 3 stats i mentioned so it's getting to the point where it's a instant-purchase every game and getting it for early team fights can be a game changer. Number 3 is achieveable by purchasing reverie and/or zekes and/or cdr boots. The main issue here is that all 3 items combined makes a support a strong force in late game team fights, but i just don't ever see myself having them all on a regular basis. It's 2200 for reverie, 1925 for aegis and 2145 for zeke's totalling in 6270 gold and then you gotta factor in wards and oracles. I just don't see it happening often enough so a need for cutting off an item could be in place. I don't feel like cutting off aegis ever. Number 2 statement is really important on supports so you don't just melt in fights. CDR is a very good stat on support, and most supports are defined by how well their base stat abilities scale with cdr so they can be more effective in fights. That leaves number 1. I feel the 40% movement speed for 3 seconds is very strong if a team knows how to execute this properly. I think everyone remembers how oddone dominated with his reverie rush maokai in a tournament some time ago, which clearly showed us how broken a mini-ghost is. However i feel things have shifted alot more and right now i feel the reverie stacking should be considered a competetive only strategy because you need proper execution. Aegis is overall a strong item on pretty much every support and the fact that it stacks makes it even stronger. You're bound to stack hp after the aegis, either for zekes or for reverie, so having +12 armor and +15 mres added on top of either +330 HP or +250 HP gives you more EHP. I feel like zeke's is sorta an underdog item. Looking at the item, it's an inferior version of stark's fervor and the build path is changed. I like the fact that you can sit on a kindlegem while waiting for the 1290 gold to upgrade it (the other parts are poor choices to hang onto and you most likely won't have room for wards aswell). 20% Attack speed and 12% lifesteal aura doesn't seem like much, but if you have just 1 more person auto-attacking on your team, i feel like zeke's is worth it over reverie. The combination of reverie+zeke's is inferior to aegis+zekes or reverie+zeke's because you're gonna lack resists for the +880 extra HP you're getting, What are people's opinion on chalice on supports? 890g vs 800 for philo, you get mres but you can't of course get reverie. Maybe if you got chalice early on in the laning phase, skipped philo and still rushed aegis? I assume the 30 gold/minute generated is worth neglecting. I've tested around with getting tabi early in the lane, should i face taric or janna with a strong auto-attacker. I feel they're a niche more than a core. Also i've tested around and for those champions who benefit from early cdr like lulu, sona and soraka this build seems strong: http://leaguecraft.com/masteries/1000000000000000003320000000000001031430400100031 It allows for a boots+1 ward+2 hpot opening while providing MS, mp5 and resists almost similar to 1/16/13. | ||
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YouGotNothin
United States907 Posts
On July 28 2012 06:22 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: my standard build has become charm/wards/pots -> boots/philo -> kindlegem -> aegis -> shurelia -> flavor i've been running this on janna, taric, alistar, soraka, leona... everyone but nunu basically. i'm pretty sure this is the optimal support build at the moment, the defensive stats you can get for the cost follow the enemy's power curve nicely. you become quite tanky for a support in mid-game, with taric it's especially noticable. i'll generally get the aegis before kindlegem if i feel a pressing need for defensive stats, sometimes i'll have kindle/cloth/null and then finish the aegis. If the lane is going well I'll get kindlegem first. CDR is godlike for clutch situations and that's where my preferred supports (janna, taric/leona/ali to a lesser extent) thrive note the lack of a second gp10. i run MS/Mpen/Armor/Mres on janna/taric and i never have problems buying wards or completing items at a reasonable clip. make plays to get gold! This has also become my standard build recently and I am really liking the fast kindlegem CDR. I feel it helps in early skirmishes as leona or Janna where I can get off one more stun or shield. Where do you get boots 2 in there though? And what are peoples opinions on the best boots 2 for supports? I typically run merc treads on aggressive supports like taric or leona and Ionian boots on Janna. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On August 15 2012 03:12 Sponkz wrote: I think everyone up untill now agrees that hog should be skipped and philo stone should be the only gp10 purchase throughout the game because you can upgrade it into Shurelya's Reverie and philo stone is the most cost-efficient gp10 of all. My real main issue is that i find reverie inappropriate on supports, because their current budget just doesn't cut for it. If i'm playing support i feel like i want 3 major things: 1) Auras for my team 2) Tankiness through health, armor and magic resists 3) CDR Number 1 is pretty easy to achieve. There's plenty of items in this game which provides me with auras i can give to my team, but mainly the 3 most commonly used items on supports are reverie, aegis and zeke's. Number 2 is achieved by purchasing aegis, since it gives all 3 stats i mentioned so it's getting to the point where it's a instant-purchase every game and getting it for early team fights can be a game changer. Number 3 is achieveable by purchasing reverie and/or zekes and/or cdr boots. The main issue here is that all 3 items combined makes a support a strong force in late game team fights, but i just don't ever see myself having them all on a regular basis. It's 2200 for reverie, 1925 for aegis and 2145 for zeke's totalling in 6270 gold and then you gotta factor in wards and oracles. I just don't see it happening often enough so a need for cutting off an item could be in place. I don't feel like cutting off aegis ever. Number 2 statement is really important on supports so you don't just melt in fights. CDR is a very good stat on support, and most supports are defined by how well their base stat abilities scale with cdr so they can be more effective in fights. That leaves number 1. I feel the 40% movement speed for 3 seconds is very strong if a team knows how to execute this properly. I think everyone remembers how oddone dominated with his reverie rush maokai in a tournament some time ago, which clearly showed us how broken a mini-ghost is. However i feel things have shifted alot more and right now i feel the reverie stacking should be considered a competetive only strategy because you need proper execution. Aegis is overall a strong item on pretty much every support and the fact that it stacks makes it even stronger. You're bound to stack hp after the aegis, either for zekes or for reverie, so having +12 armor and +15 mres added on top of either +330 HP or +250 HP gives you more EHP. I feel like zeke's is sorta an underdog item. Looking at the item, it's an inferior version of stark's fervor and the build path is changed. I like the fact that you can sit on a kindlegem while waiting for the 1290 gold to upgrade it (the other parts are poor choices to hang onto and you most likely won't have room for wards aswell). 20% Attack speed and 12% lifesteal aura doesn't seem like much, but if you have just 1 more person auto-attacking on your team, i feel like zeke's is worth it over reverie. The combination of reverie+zeke's is inferior to aegis+zekes or reverie+zeke's because you're gonna lack resists for the +880 extra HP you're getting, What are people's opinion on chalice on supports? 890g vs 800 for philo, you get mres but you can't of course get reverie. Maybe if you got chalice early on in the laning phase, skipped philo and still rushed aegis? I assume the 30 gold/minute generated is worth neglecting. I've tested around with getting tabi early in the lane, should i face taric or janna with a strong auto-attacker. I feel they're a niche more than a core. Also i've tested around and for those champions who benefit from early cdr like lulu, sona and soraka this build seems strong: http://leaguecraft.com/masteries/1000000000000000003320000000000001031430400100031 It allows for a boots+1 ward+2 hpot opening while providing MS, mp5 and resists almost similar to 1/16/13. Eh no. You should make HoG. For ranged supports (Soraka, Janna, Sona, Lulu) survivability is crucial. Typically you are the easiest target because you have low innate armor, HP, and no escapes. The 200 HP helps a lot. Furthermore Locket of the Iron Solari is a good item. Seriously, it is a GOOD item. There is absolutely no reason why you should ignore it. For melee supports (Leona, Taric, Blitzcrank) you should build HoG first, before philo. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 17 2012 02:47 zulu_nation8 wrote: if you wanna skip a gp10 i would skip philo. I don't think the nerfs should change builds though. It's either skip HoG or skip both. @Sponkz: Aegis and Zekes should be split between jungler and support. If you're getting one, jungler should get the other. It's not feasible for support to get both in reasonable time. | ||
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On August 17 2012 09:13 De4ngus wrote: lolwtf why do people want to build hog so much? want to pay 350g for 20hp? ok. dont worry guys kindlegem doesnt exist. its not like it builds into useful items like reverie, zekes, or soul shroud. But you get 350g back after roughly 12 minutes.... so.... | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On August 17 2012 09:13 De4ngus wrote: lolwtf why do people want to build hog so much? want to pay 350g for 20hp? ok. dont worry guys kindlegem doesnt exist. its not like it builds into useful items like reverie, zekes, or soul shroud. You dont need any of those items that early, rather get hog so i atleast have some income. | ||
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HazMat
United States17077 Posts
On August 17 2012 09:41 Sufficiency wrote: But you get 350g back after roughly 12 minutes.... so.... Or instead of waiting 12 minutes you could just get an earlier Aegis with the Ruby Crystal you bought. Or Kindlegem like Gandhisauce said. People are too stuck on Gp10. | ||
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kainzero
United States5211 Posts
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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Ente
Germany1795 Posts
The thing with g/10 on supports is just you need to be able to constantly buy wards regardless how the game is going. You get 0 kill 0 towers 0 drakes for several minutes you still have to be able to get a few wards (yes I understand obv you usually want to give some gold to the support nowadays but sometimes its just not possible due to everyone being underfarmed/being behind in the game) Edit: for the build discussions the standart build atm is either shurelia or zeke first and the other after that if you are fed (yes supports can be fed with towers/drakes and maybe a few kills) you can get Aegis else the jungler should get it. Yes 2 aegis is probably cost effecient but aegis + zeke should be more cost effecient and saving the ad carry an item slot/a 2550 g item (for bt to be able to get more lifesteal) is very very good. People just like to look at costefficiency but thats too one dimensional there is a reason you usually want to give the ad carry most of the farm and that is that an ad carry can use gold /stats the best into lategame and increasing your ad carries potential by quite a bit with the zeke is really great. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 17 2012 09:41 Sufficiency wrote: But you get 350g back after roughly 12 minutes.... so.... And it takes 12 more minutes to generate 350 extra gold. So 24 minutes later, it's finally been cost-efficient for longer than it's been cost-inefficient. As opposed to anything else that was cost-efficient for the entire time. On August 17 2012 09:44 arb wrote: You dont need any of those items that early, rather get hog so i atleast have some income. Ya man that 350 gold surplus after 24 minutes is totally the difference between having income and not. having 4-5 free wards immediately is more powerful than being 4-5 wards behind now and 4-5 wards up 25 minutes from now because 4-5 wards does more early game when Oracle's isn't in the game yet. Having 350 gold more worth of stats in an early game fight makes a bigger difference than being 350 gold worth of stats ahead lategame because it comprises a larger fraction of your total item value. Nobody cares about an extra Cloth armor 40 minutes into the game when people are on 4-5 items, but having an extra cloth armor worth of stats in lane is a huge deal, and is even significant into early teamfights. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
Pretty much every non main support I've seen has the attitude of skimping on wards over items. The right attitude should be the exact opposite. When you don't have the awareness to track jungler paths or sense ganks, which is every support, you should err on the side of gross inefficiency, meaning whereas a better support may only need two wards in the next 10 minutes to defend vs ganks, it's not a bad idea for you to get eight. There are so many cases where on your first trip back you should be getting boots and wards, or just wards, instead of your gp10 or first piece of gp10. If you're not at the point where you know where the enemy jungler is pre 6 ALL the time, you probably should just always have two wards at bot. Hell just skip GP10 items altogether and buy boots and wards. I'm pretty certain if every support did that up until the highest elo they'd win way more games. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
Even when you're sharing the burden of wards with your team, you can't afford to not have any wards if there's a situation where you need a ward RIGHT NOW. This is true more often later in the game, where you need to up your quota of wards a bit (but hopefully, you should be getting some assist gold or maybe a few CS at this point) and you need to be carrying anywhere from 3~5+ wards in case there's a vision war over baron or something. You can't afford to be denied vision ENTIRELY just because there's an oracle floating around. It's just asking to lose the inevitable teamfight. When towers go down, there are also more opportunities to ward. You can start thinking about warding deep in the enemy jungle to allow pushes to the second turret (usually a ward at whatever nearby buff camp bush is good for this, and a second ward at at the wraiths or Jbush to make sure you don't get ambushed from behind) without getting easily ambushed. When oracles hit the field, you'll want to start placing SOME of your wards in places that your team can at least potentially respond to the enemy team clearing them. Warding your own jungle entrances works well here, or the riverbush at mid instead of the more aggressive enemy-wraith ward. Your wards might not cover as much, but they won't be cleared as easily either. However, you still will want some wards in more aggressive places when you're actively pushing (even if they clear the ward in this case, it's done its job - alerted you to either halt the push or prepare for a fight) As far as GP10, I've only been going with 1 GP10 item and getting the rest of my GP10 from quints + mastery. It's fine. I usually can finish aegis by 20 minutes with minimal assist gold and still buying a healthy # of wards. Usually it's going to be philo - shurelia is core, locket is too situational. I've usually been going Philo -> Aegis -> boots2 -> Shurelia. If I'm a backline support and a frontliner already has aegis though, I might go philo -> zekes -> boots2-> shurelia? Or the other way around. | ||
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
On August 17 2012 06:13 TheYango wrote: It's either skip HoG or skip both. @Sponkz: Aegis and Zekes should be split between jungler and support. If you're getting one, jungler should get the other. It's not feasible for support to get both in reasonable time. It's just that aegis has so much to offer for supports in terms of survivability that i just find it hard sometimes to simply skip it, and junglers don't wanna skip aegis either and get zeke's, because it only offers HP. Those times when i went with reverie and zeke's i look at my resists and they're sitting at 60-70'ish while i have 2,2+ hp. It feels wrong. Also at those advocating hog. You can just go boots -> faerie -> ruby (or ruby -> faerie) -> philo. Last few games i noticed how if the game goes past 40 min or so, i can actually afford to start building towards reverie and get it before the big game-deciding fights. About the wards, you should only ward accordingly and not just ward because you bought 3 and therefore need vision in 3 places. Sometimes you feel pressure so it's more natural so keep tri, river and lane warded, but those games where the enemy jungler and mid just roam around mid/top area, i don't see a reason for it. It isn't the supports duty to always buy wards, you can ask the ad carry to get 1-2 wards if they got extra spare gold. Not like it hurts them for the rest of the game (especially if the ward saved your life) On August 17 2012 06:09 Sufficiency wrote: Eh no. You should make HoG. For ranged supports (Soraka, Janna, Sona, Lulu) survivability is crucial. Typically you are the easiest target because you have low innate armor, HP, and no escapes. The 200 HP helps a lot. Furthermore Locket of the Iron Solari is a good item. Seriously, it is a GOOD item. There is absolutely no reason why you should ignore it. For melee supports (Leona, Taric, Blitzcrank) you should build HoG first, before philo. The reason i skip locket of the iron solari is because it scales with levels, something you can't be dependant on getting. | ||
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MooMooMugi
United States10531 Posts
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