On July 13 2012 17:55 wei2coolman wrote: I'd like to add some stuff in terms of opening items.
Fcharm + 4 wards situation: When you know this is going to be a prolonged farm lane, with absolutely no kill potential from both sides, that means it'll be a while before you get a chance to go back.
Fcharm + vision + 2regular wards + pot. situation: where denying vision for strong lvl 2, or lvl 4 ganks for your jungler. I like this opening when I have a jungle lee sin, that is going to give a good lvl 2 or lvl 3 gank. -Also good as offensive support at lvl 2, it can deny bush vision in lane, thus making your presence much more deadly.
Boots + ward + pot -I don't like running this. This is as close to balls to the walls, for lvl 2-lvl3 kill advantage. So for example, if you're running a taric+corki lane, or leona/graves, or some combo that is almost unbeatable due to sheer strength advantage due to lvl 2, this is a good opening for that. So if you see a combo of like ashe+sona lane, and you're running taric+corki, or taric+urgot, or leona+graves, leona+etc etc, Boots+ ward+pot isn't a bad opening. Just make sure when you do your actions you don't gank'd mid action.
regrowth+ pot -not a bad start, if lane is a farm lane, with possible weak poke from enemy. So if the enemy lane is sona+ashe, you could probably get away with starting regrowth + pot, while playing passive.
I like boots+wards opening against low mobility lanes such as kog'maw+soraka, because you tend to play overly agressive to not give them the advantage when they gain the levels they need.
On July 13 2012 18:48 Sponkz wrote: I like boots+wards opening against low mobility lanes such as kog'maw+soraka, because you tend to play overly agressive to not give them the advantage when they gain the levels they need.
If you open boots its kinda of all-in in lane phase. You set your self up to all most be even or slightly ahead or just be really far behind in gold. Its high risk low reward rushing your philo/HoG first is just so much safer.
On July 13 2012 18:48 Sponkz wrote: I like boots+wards opening against low mobility lanes such as kog'maw+soraka, because you tend to play overly agressive to not give them the advantage when they gain the levels they need.
If you open boots its kinda of all-in in lane phase. You set your self up to all most be even or slightly ahead or just be really far behind in gold. Its high risk low reward rushing your philo/HoG first is just so much safer.
Yeah exactly. You're aiming to get a big lead (mostly achieved through killing) before the enemy can become even with you.
Also something worth adding in the item section is that your first gp10 doesn't always have to be philo. It's getting quite common to go faerie charm -> hog -> philo, just to survive burst lanes etc.
On July 13 2012 18:48 Sponkz wrote: I like boots+wards opening against low mobility lanes such as kog'maw+soraka, because you tend to play overly agressive to not give them the advantage when they gain the levels they need.
If you open boots its kinda of all-in in lane phase. You set your self up to all most be even or slightly ahead or just be really far behind in gold. Its high risk low reward rushing your philo/HoG first is just so much safer.
Yeah exactly. You're aiming to get a big lead (mostly achieved through killing) before the enemy can become even with you.
Also something worth adding in the item section is that your first gp10 doesn't always have to be philo. It's getting quite common to go faerie charm -> hog -> philo, just to survive burst lanes etc.
Do you stay in lane long enough to affort hog + wards at the first back?
Sometimes i do, sometimes i don't. If i don't i just grab a ruby + wards and tell my carry to push the lane or play it safe, when i get the 350 gold so i can re and get some gp10.
I haven't tried this yet because I normally just do FC/wards/pots, but wouldn't boots make sense for Alistar support? More than most. I hear you on the downsides but Alistar as a support is so positionally-dependant, especially for a kill lane.
On July 14 2012 01:05 mordek wrote: I haven't tried this yet because I normally just do FC/wards/pots, but wouldn't boots make sense for Alistar support? More than most. I hear you on the downsides but Alistar as a support is so positionally-dependant, especially for a kill lane.
Boots first is really, REALLY risky.
I do note that on aggressive supports I like MS quaints.
On July 14 2012 01:05 mordek wrote: I haven't tried this yet because I normally just do FC/wards/pots, but wouldn't boots make sense for Alistar support? More than most. I hear you on the downsides but Alistar as a support is so positionally-dependant, especially for a kill lane.
Boots first is really, REALLY risky.
I do note that on aggressive supports I like MS quaints.
I understand but I feel like a lot of Alistar's usefulness as a support is reliant on him being in the right spot. I only say this because when I play Ali support I'll normally get my philo first but I feel so constricted in what I can do. My health and mana are topped off but I don't get to do much with it since I can't harass very well. I mean, I can guard my carry and let him cs fine without boots I guess but I feel like I could be doing more.
The only ones on that list that aren't full troll supports are Orianna, Morgana, Gangplank, Ashe, Shen, and Fiddlesticks.
The other ones are there just because they have some sort of CC, whereas the ones above actually do things that are useful instead of having a single slow/snare/stun
The only ones on that list that aren't full troll supports are Orianna, Morgana, Gangplank, Ashe, Shen, and Fiddlesticks.
The other ones are there just because they have some sort of CC, whereas the ones above actually do things that are useful instead of having a single slow/snare/stun
TBH, I seriously think support kennen is 100% viable. He offers a lot of poke during laning phase, and his W is impossible to avoid, you can actually end up zoning the shit out of the enemies. Also with his ulti, you're essentially adding a giant fucking stun barrier, around your AD carry during a fight, and at the 3rd rank of the ulti, you'll be stunning everyone in your aoe 2 times, easily, offering more than enough time for your AD carry to peel/kite everyone to death. Think of it as a sona ult, except so much more.
On July 13 2012 17:56 Lmui wrote: 21/0/9 isn't viable on a support. No support gets enough money to build enough damage that getting more than 9 points in offense would benefit them in a meaningful way later in the game. I forgot zeke's herald and I'll add that. Will of the ancients isn't particularly good on a support since the price increase. Revolver doesn't help any support but sona and lux and 2300 for an item that benefits only your AP carry(s) is a waste compared to getting a aegis or even zekes. In team compositions with two AP carries, they generally involve having kennen or vladimir or rumble, all of which build WotA. 9 points is the maximum I'd recommend putting in offense
Except WotA doesn't benefit only your AP carry. A large percentage of ADs, junglers, and top laners do a significant portion of their damage as spell damage (even AD-scaling and physical-damage spells benefit from spellvamp).
On July 13 2012 17:56 Lmui wrote: Losing out on the passive gold gain in the utility tree hurts a lot with any mastery setup that doesn't involve having the gold gain. If you cannot capitalize on the advantage that having more offensive masteries gives you, you're gimping yourself later in the game.
Losing out on 3-4 ward worth of gold is "gimping yourself later in the game"? lol
On July 13 2012 17:56 Lmui wrote: Openings where you get more than two potions are generally detrimental to your play. There is no normal lane that puts out enough harass in a normal game that you need to extra pots to stay in lane. Generally, when you want to seriously go for a kill, you're going to blow all your offensive summoners. namely exhaust and your AD carry's ignite. If that fails, you're going to have to wait four minutes before you can try again. If it succeeds, you get to push your lane and base. Either way, the potions aren't going to see serious use. The one or two potions that a support generally buys is for incidental damage taken from one or two autoattacks while they're either poking or trying to maintain bush control.
All-consumables starts take 1-2 mana potions. The reason for this is that it lets you squeeze out extra wards (which let you play more aggressively due to better overall vision coverage) while still maintaining the exact same effectiveness because Faerie Charm isn't going to give more regen than 2 mana pots.
On July 13 2012 17:56 Lmui wrote: 21/0/9 isn't viable on a support. No support gets enough money to build enough damage that getting more than 9 points in offense would benefit them in a meaningful way later in the game. I forgot zeke's herald and I'll add that. Will of the ancients isn't particularly good on a support since the price increase. Revolver doesn't help any support but sona and lux and 2300 for an item that benefits only your AP carry(s) is a waste compared to getting a aegis or even zekes. In team compositions with two AP carries, they generally involve having kennen or vladimir or rumble, all of which build WotA. 9 points is the maximum I'd recommend putting in offense
Except WotA doesn't benefit only your AP carry. A large percentage of ADs, junglers, and top laners do a significant portion of their damage as spell damage (even AD-scaling and physical-damage spells benefit from spellvamp).
On July 13 2012 17:56 Lmui wrote: Losing out on the passive gold gain in the utility tree hurts a lot with any mastery setup that doesn't involve having the gold gain. If you cannot capitalize on the advantage that having more offensive masteries gives you, you're gimping yourself later in the game.
Losing out on 3-4 ward worth of gold is "gimping yourself later in the game"? lol
On July 13 2012 17:56 Lmui wrote: Openings where you get more than two potions are generally detrimental to your play. There is no normal lane that puts out enough harass in a normal game that you need to extra pots to stay in lane. Generally, when you want to seriously go for a kill, you're going to blow all your offensive summoners. namely exhaust and your AD carry's ignite. If that fails, you're going to have to wait four minutes before you can try again. If it succeeds, you get to push your lane and base. Either way, the potions aren't going to see serious use. The one or two potions that a support generally buys is for incidental damage taken from one or two autoattacks while they're either poking or trying to maintain bush control.
All-consumables starts take 1-2 mana potions. The reason for this is that it lets you squeeze out extra wards (which let you play more aggressively due to better overall vision coverage) while still maintaining the exact same effectiveness because Faerie Charm isn't going to give more regen than 2 mana pots.
1600 Elo support mains real cute
I'm going to stay with my opinion that 2300 gold is too much for a support to afford. Compared with what an aegis or shurelya's does for your team in the midgame, WotA isn't a first, nor second support item to buy. Very rarely will you get a third item and even though WotA gives spellvamp, zeke's herald does arguably more for a similar price.
Every bit of gp10 is precious on a support. 13gp10 is the passive gp10 that all champions get 2gp10 from masteries is ~15% of that. I feel that 15% is significant. It's your opinion otherwise.
If you want to harp on my ELO, or attack my skill, go ahead and do so. I don't main support by any means and there's a disclaimer at the top of the OP regarding this.
So a long long time ago some of us got together to make guides for all the roles, but for various reasons, it never ended up panning out. Myself and another TLer, Clickrush, took on the support role and wrote up a bunch of stuff a couple months ago, but we never actually finished it. I'm gonna link the google docs with what we had, even though it is unfinished since it might contribute to the discussion here. I'm a former 1500 elo support main who stopped playing support because my AD carry buddy quit the game.
Anyway, here it is for any who want to look at it and pick it apart and call me a cute 1500 elo support main >_>
Disclaimer This was all written a while ago, so some of it is going to be out of date with the current support styles.
Disclaimer 2 This never got to final draft version so excuse any grammatical errors. I never asked but I believe English is not Click's first language.
On July 13 2012 18:48 Sponkz wrote: I like boots+wards opening against low mobility lanes such as kog'maw+soraka, because you tend to play overly agressive to not give them the advantage when they gain the levels they need.
If you open boots its kinda of all-in in lane phase. You set your self up to all most be even or slightly ahead or just be really far behind in gold. Its high risk low reward rushing your philo/HoG first is just so much safer.
Not really.. if you look at pros some teams have been going a ton of boots on supports. With the gold mastery you can still take an assortment of pots and wards with this build.
EPT
