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On July 14 2012 03:49 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 17:56 Lmui wrote:
21/0/9 isn't viable on a support. No support gets enough money to build enough damage that getting more than 9 points in offense would benefit them in a meaningful way later in the game. I forgot zeke's herald and I'll add that.
Will of the ancients isn't particularly good on a support since the price increase. Revolver doesn't help any support but sona and lux and 2300 for an item that benefits only your AP carry(s) is a waste compared to getting a aegis or even zekes. In team compositions with two AP carries, they generally involve having kennen or vladimir or rumble, all of which build WotA. 9 points is the maximum I'd recommend putting in offense Except WotA doesn't benefit only your AP carry. A large percentage of ADs, junglers, and top laners do a significant portion of their damage as spell damage (even AD-scaling and physical-damage spells benefit from spellvamp).
Tbh tho if I was playing support and I managed to save up ~2k gold I'd rather get Aegis or Zeke's instead of WotA. WotA benefits everyone and is a good pick up, but it's usually very easy for the AP carry to pick it up and it's more or less core on some APs. Aegis is a good pickup too, but top or jungle grab it often. Zeke's is super good for your AD and is usually really good for your top/jungler too. Difference between Zeke and WotA is that top and jungle usually don't get Zeke's cause it's too far out of their way/not beneficial to them enough to consider it a core item in their builds.
To add onto the unconventional support openings discussion. I recall M5 running a Ruby crystal+potions support Nunu once. He took the extra starting gold mastery. It was actually pretty interesting since it let him rush a HoG really fast (sub 5 minutes or something) and the lack of a starting ward didn't impact them that much. The opening worked because the enemy jungler wasn't a strong level 2 ganker or counterjungler so M5 could afford to play blind for the first ~5 minutes. By the time the enemy jungler would start ganking, Nunu already backed and got HoG and wards.
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On July 14 2012 05:46 brolaf wrote:
Not really.. if you look at pros some teams have been going a ton of boots on supports. With the gold mastery you can still take an assortment of pots and wards with this build.
All-in:An aggressive strategy aimed at killing the opponent off completely in one attack. All available resources are put into this one attack and no follow-up is being considered. Should the attack fail and the opponent live through it, the game is almost certainly lost to a counter or to superior enemy tech/economy.
Using this definition you might not just flat out lose the game but your just really far behind usually a g10 4-5mins later, they get better Hp/Mana per 5 in lane able to harass more and be able to take more harass in lane and this is if you are not able to set up a kill or zone the other comp bottom lane out of several waves of creeps, and imho i don't think boots should be able to effect the amount of zoneing one could do but that's just my 2 cents on that. The fact the pros do it doesnt make the build less all-in they know what they have to do to become ahead and that's what they strive to do with the boots opener. but have you ever seen a game when they dont get the kills/zoneing out? they support is miles behind and it can snowball the lane for the other ADC/support.
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Playing in the TL inhouse today, I need to add an item I forgot about. Soul Shroud. The CDR aura is actualy good on every champion in the game and costs in the 2-2.3k region that most other support items are at.
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Soul shroud blows, cdr has become so easy to itemize for, that support don't need to itemize it for teammates. That's not even the issue either, the issue is that it's a 2k investment, but it often comes in at a point in the game where people already itemizing for cdr..
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On July 15 2012 06:34 Lmui wrote:
Playing in the TL inhouse today, I need to add an item I forgot about. Soul Shroud. The CDR aura is actualy good on every champion in the game and costs in the 2-2.3k region that most other support items are at.
Buy zeke's instead if you want cdr and hp. Soul shroud blows
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On July 15 2012 09:56 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 06:34 Lmui wrote:
Playing in the TL inhouse today, I need to add an item I forgot about. Soul Shroud. The CDR aura is actualy good on every champion in the game and costs in the 2-2.3k region that most other support items are at. Buy zeke's instead if you want cdr and hp. Soul shroud blows
Regardless of people's opinions on it, it's still a viable support item, giving a teamwide aura so it deserves to be included.
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
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Thanks, added under masteries.
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442 Posts
I don't like, or agree with, the idea that support is a simple role that anyone should just be instantly good at and "takes no real skill"
I don't like it, because it ignores the difference between a bad, good, and amazing support.
I play Lulu and Karma, these are my supports. And when I'm playing, the enemy AD and carry are zoned out of the lane as much as possible.
No, supports don't snowball into some unstoppable force. And, for the most part, you don't even notice what your support is doing. But if there were a stat to add up how much damage I am mitigating during a team fight, or during a protracted push, as Karma...It would be huge. I keep my team pushing, and you can see it. There comes a moment where everyone just looks confused, like they feel like they need to back, but everyone is still full health, and we can keep going forward.
Enemy team dives on the carry, get her out of there, then get back to the fight to support the team.
There is just as much skill in judging how/what skills are minimally required to save my carry as there are in killing their's. Yeah, everyone could blow their ults and summoner skills killing the enemy carry, then get wiped by the rest of the team because they can't fight.
The same is true of a support. If I blow everything to barely save my carry, the rest of my team is left out in the cold because I can't help them. You have to know exactly how much to use, when, and where, to save a teammate, and then leave enough left over to do it again.
Frequently, I find myself in games where -I- am being focused, either out of frustration or necessity, because I simply refuse to allow them to kill teammates.
The point is, there's no announcement when a support saves the team. If a carry does his dance, chooses his skills perfectly and quickly, moves between enemies with great skill, everyone knows. His kills are announced to everyone. For me? There's no QUADRA KILL. No one flips out and pats on the back, starts trash talking over the ace. If I choose my skills perfectly, get hurt teammates out of the fight, and we end a teamfight losing only the tank..There's no flip out, no one commends the support.
Lets get a little respect for supports in here. There's more to it than you realize.
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On July 14 2012 16:15 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 03:49 TheYango wrote:On July 13 2012 17:56 Lmui wrote:
21/0/9 isn't viable on a support. No support gets enough money to build enough damage that getting more than 9 points in offense would benefit them in a meaningful way later in the game. I forgot zeke's herald and I'll add that.
Will of the ancients isn't particularly good on a support since the price increase. Revolver doesn't help any support but sona and lux and 2300 for an item that benefits only your AP carry(s) is a waste compared to getting a aegis or even zekes. In team compositions with two AP carries, they generally involve having kennen or vladimir or rumble, all of which build WotA. 9 points is the maximum I'd recommend putting in offense Except WotA doesn't benefit only your AP carry. A large percentage of ADs, junglers, and top laners do a significant portion of their damage as spell damage (even AD-scaling and physical-damage spells benefit from spellvamp). Tbh tho if I was playing support and I managed to save up ~2k gold I'd rather get Aegis or Zeke's instead of WotA. WotA benefits everyone and is a good pick up, but it's usually very easy for the AP carry to pick it up and it's more or less core on some APs. Aegis is a good pickup too, but top or jungle grab it often. Zeke's is super good for your AD and is usually really good for your top/jungler too. Difference between Zeke and WotA is that top and jungle usually don't get Zeke's cause it's too far out of their way/not beneficial to them enough to consider it a core item in their builds. To add onto the unconventional support openings discussion. I recall M5 running a Ruby crystal+potions support Nunu once. He took the extra starting gold mastery. It was actually pretty interesting since it let him rush a HoG really fast (sub 5 minutes or something) and the lack of a starting ward didn't impact them that much. The opening worked because the enemy jungler wasn't a strong level 2 ganker or counterjungler so M5 could afford to play blind for the first ~5 minutes. By the time the enemy jungler would start ganking, Nunu already backed and got HoG and wards.
The REAL problem with wota, imo, is that when you can finally afford it (2500g), AP carries have already fallen off their power curves.
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What about Nidalee as support? I'm far from a pro player but she has heal, her own "wards" (traps) and can punish people for not being careful with their positioning (spear).
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On July 16 2012 22:32 Felnarion wrote:
I don't like, or agree with, the idea that support is a simple role that anyone should just be instantly good at and "takes no real skill"
I don't like it, because it ignores the difference between a bad, good, and amazing support.
I play Lulu and Karma, these are my supports. And when I'm playing, the enemy AD and carry are zoned out of the lane as much as possible.
No, supports don't snowball into some unstoppable force. And, for the most part, you don't even notice what your support is doing. But if there were a stat to add up how much damage I am mitigating during a team fight, or during a protracted push, as Karma...It would be huge. I keep my team pushing, and you can see it. There comes a moment where everyone just looks confused, like they feel like they need to back, but everyone is still full health, and we can keep going forward.
Enemy team dives on the carry, get her out of there, then get back to the fight to support the team.
There is just as much skill in judging how/what skills are minimally required to save my carry as there are in killing their's. Yeah, everyone could blow their ults and summoner skills killing the enemy carry, then get wiped by the rest of the team because they can't fight.
The same is true of a support. If I blow everything to barely save my carry, the rest of my team is left out in the cold because I can't help them. You have to know exactly how much to use, when, and where, to save a teammate, and then leave enough left over to do it again.
Frequently, I find myself in games where -I- am being focused, either out of frustration or necessity, because I simply refuse to allow them to kill teammates.
The point is, there's no announcement when a support saves the team. If a carry does his dance, chooses his skills perfectly and quickly, moves between enemies with great skill, everyone knows. His kills are announced to everyone. For me? There's no QUADRA KILL. No one flips out and pats on the back, starts trash talking over the ace. If I choose my skills perfectly, get hurt teammates out of the fight, and we end a teamfight losing only the tank..There's no flip out, no one commends the support.
Lets get a little respect for supports in here. There's more to it than you realize.
^this
Support is a thankless job that tons of people think they can do just because they spam w as sona or soraka.
On July 17 2012 08:11 B.I.G. wrote:
What about Nidalee as support? I'm far from a pro player but she has heal, her own "wards" (traps) and can punish people for not being careful with their positioning (spear).
No way to peel people off of your carry, and your damage falls off very quickly (and isn't even that high to begin with). You basically become a heal/AS buff bot. Also traps don't replace wards.
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I'd argue that Aegis is the best thing to get as a support because building it allows for a lot of versatility.
I play a bit lazy, so usually I start faerie, 2green, 1red, 1blue. I grab my philo when I back, and then choose between boots and Kage's. Most of my supports are AP, and Kage's helps add a tiny bit of damage and is a bit cheaper than HoG.
After this, I rush Aegis starting ruby, mantle, cloth. If I back with only ruby, meaning we're probably doing shitty or I died), I can buy a HoG to buff my income and survivability to better play defensively. If I back and have ruby+ mantle, I can quickly get a Merc treads. If I have all the pieces, I can buy Aegis. The most expensive step of build Aegis is the final recipe, which is 750 gp. Ofc the game goes weird sometimes so I do other things, but I think this is a safe line of reasoning.
Wota is a nice item, but until its finished, I find it a fairly "selfish" item. First you get a hextech, which gives you some spell vamp and AP. It's 1200 gold, and benefits no one but you, and since you're pretty low damage anyways, you're healing for maybe a couple dozen hp per spell. Blasting wand is the same and is pretty big investment (860 gp) for supports who are usually pretty gold starved.
Zeke's is kind of the same as Wota. It's a good item, but the pieces are selfish and don't benefit your team in any way, and benefit you very little as well.
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Well, support is pretty thankless but also fairly blameless conversely. If something goes wrong after laning phase, its not really that much your fault. You kept the adc alive. You let him farm. You got him some kills and saved him from some bad moments.
1. If your adc is ahead of the enemy adc, you've done your job really well and now your adc's time to shine.
2. If your adc roughly even with the other adc at the end, you've done alright and its up to his own skill vs. the enemy adc.
3. If your adc is behind of the enemy adc, then you done fucked up and better help him as much as possible.
If he can't do his job (carry) afterwards in situations 1 and 2, its his own damn fault. Yes, I'll do my best to help midgame and lategame, but there's only so much I can do with 2/3 of your gold and exp.
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On July 20 2012 02:44 ticklishmusic wrote:
Zeke's is kind of the same as Wota. It's a good item, but the pieces are selfish and don't benefit your team in any way, and benefit you very little as well.
Kindlegem is pretty good to have regardless. The other components not so much.
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On July 20 2012 02:54 mordek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 02:44 ticklishmusic wrote:
Zeke's is kind of the same as Wota. It's a good item, but the pieces are selfish and don't benefit your team in any way, and benefit you very little as well. Kindlegem is pretty good to have regardless. The other components not so much.
I'm personally not a big fan of Kindlegem, but if you do get it build Shurleya's.
Random fact: upgrading a philo into eleisa and then selling gives 10 more gold than just selling philo.
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With the nerf to HoG, I'm seriously considering skipping it entirely (it's not like Locket is core the way Shurelia's is) and either picking up an earlier kindlegem or rushing aegis more often. I'm having a very hard time justifying paying the same amount of gold for 5 GP10 as for 10% CDR. There's no point in "investing in GP10 to buy wards later" if I have to gimp myself to do it. CDR means a ton to nearly all supports, and earlier kindlegem opens up your options in ways HoG doesn't. Might pick up GP10 yellows to offset it and see if armor reds are enough armor to not get blown up too easily early on - later on, the earlier Aegis bits (if that's what I choose) will make up for the lack of survivability.
Not a fan of Kage's on most supports either. Most of the AP ratios are so piss poor it's just not worth it, and so you're effectively paying 750 PURELY on GP10. If it's supposed to "buy you wards later" why not just buy 10 wards and use them later. ~_~
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You're probably better off going for the early aegis, or at least buying the parts to aegis (but less supports are getting this, since more junglers/top are getting this item). The main problem with getting Shurelya's that early, is that a) you lose your gp10 on philo, b) the unique active is fairly insignificant in small skirmishes, and is much more essential mid/late game, than it is early game. As far going kindlegem for health, instead of hog, is fine, but if anything don't convert it to shurelya's so early. You're probably better off buying a zeke's with first kindlegem.
As far as locket of iron solari goes, i personally really love the item, i think it's pretty unique, and pretty awesome, maybe if they could have the shield scale w/ something other than just lvel, it would maybe make it more accessible. I'll still be running philo+hog, just because aegis is usually built by jungle/top most of the time, and early shurelya's isn't that amazing, so hog is still an okay money dump if you plan on getting locket.
As far as kage's goes, if you get early kills/assists in your botlane, you might as well pick up kages, it pays itself off in like 10minutes(if you sell it ), so if you get it within the first 10-12minutes of the game it's almost always a good idea to get it.
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On July 20 2012 04:34 wei2coolman wrote:
You're probably better off going for the early aegis, or at least buying the parts to aegis (but less supports are getting this, since more junglers/top are getting this item). The main problem with getting Shurelya's that early, is that a) you lose your gp10 on philo, b) the unique active is fairly insignificant in small skirmishes, and is much more essential mid/late game, than it is early game. As far going kindlegem for health, instead of hog, is fine, but if anything don't convert it to shurelya's so early. You're probably better off buying a zeke's with first kindlegem.
The thing is, Shurelya's can arguably be more powerful than Aegis depending on the context of the game. Aegis might be the difference in an even team fight, but Shurelya's can create opportunities for a fight tilted in your favor. Unless it seems like a slow game I usually get Shurelya's first because it has a more natural build path for a support. As to the losing the g10 of philo, I would argue that if you're already to the point where teamfights are likely to happen, then the gold production is going to be less of an issue thanks to assist gold and to the fact that it's actually not all that difficult to pick up some cs after the laning phase ends.
Maybe it's just my philosophy, but I don't feel like its worth trading the immediate power of Shurelya's for a reduction in gold generation.
In a straight up fight, Aegis is king and I don't think there's much arguing against that, but there's something to be said for the pure utility of shurelya's in creating opportunities for your team.
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IMO Kage's is pretty good, esp on champs who can heal. It adds up to quite a bit extra hp. Also, Blitz's grab is almost a nuke, and scales at a 1:1 ratio.
I had a spiel about Kage's vs Codex and basically decided Kage's if behind b/c gp5 helps and it builds into DFG for free needed damage. Codex gives CD/mp5 and let's you spam and snowball your lane more.
The nice thing about building towards Aegis is that all of the items are essentially recyclable into other things if someone gets it first.
I'm a pretty big fan of Locket as well. I find it much better on you than Randuin's, which is much better on a tank with more MR/armor for the extended proc.
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I had a thought about a botlane Ezreal with Lee support. I know this lane wouldn't be the best for lee since his lategame wouldn't be that great but i feel that Lee's skillset is pretty good for supporting. This lane sounds kind of all-in but imo it can work out like a Leona-Ezreal botlane, while Lee dealing tonsofdamages instead of tanking. A combinaison of the three summoners exhaust heal ignite is doable since Lee doesn't need flash.
Any thoughts about it? I think the damage output you get from this lane can be so freaking ridiculous it can work.
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