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On July 12 2012 03:48 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 03:26 Shikyo wrote:
Is the first clear for jayce really that bad? I do wolves -> blue -> wraiths -> red -> golems -> wraiths and lvl 4 by 3:50 and this is of course in single player without any sort of a pull so it's like 30 seconds slower than normal. That doesn't seem that bad, I didn't even optimize it... Item/Runes/Masteries? How much health were you left with after hitting 4? It's not like, impossible. He's a possible jungler, but I don't see him being a top one unless he can keep up with other current top ones, and that means a good to fast first clear and enough health and CDs to gank with immediately afterwards or during the first clear.
um like 200 hp with 1 extra potion IIRC(starting cloth 5)
9-21-0
AD marks and quints, flat armor seals, flat mres glyphs(my normal AD page)
I just did Q W Q
Again it's the first time I ever tried it so I'm sure I didn't do it optimally but as his clears after like lvl 8 are instant that sort of a clear really doesn't feel that slow
Btw I think that lvl 1 Q is better than W and Q should be leveled before W as well.
note you have about 300 more hp with leash, also what you skill at lvl 1 doesnt matter with leash
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Why so what? Why Q would be better than W? Mostly because of the AoE for both skills, on 3 targets hammer Q is like a total of 118 dmg or so and ranged Q is a really nice 80 dmg AoE whereas melee W indeed is good at 100 dmg but its cooldown is longer making it same dps as ranged Q and also ranged W is basically just double dmg auto on 1 target on a super long cooldown, longer than melee Q.
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On July 12 2012 04:28 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 03:48 Requizen wrote:On July 12 2012 03:26 Shikyo wrote:
Is the first clear for jayce really that bad? I do wolves -> blue -> wraiths -> red -> golems -> wraiths and lvl 4 by 3:50 and this is of course in single player without any sort of a pull so it's like 30 seconds slower than normal. That doesn't seem that bad, I didn't even optimize it... Item/Runes/Masteries? How much health were you left with after hitting 4? It's not like, impossible. He's a possible jungler, but I don't see him being a top one unless he can keep up with other current top ones, and that means a good to fast first clear and enough health and CDs to gank with immediately afterwards or during the first clear. um like 200 hp with 1 extra potion IIRC(starting cloth 5) 9-21-0 AD marks and quints, flat armor seals, flat mres glyphs(my normal AD page) I just did Q W Q Again it's the first time I ever tried it so I'm sure I didn't do it optimally but as his clears after like lvl 8 are instant that sort of a clear really doesn't feel that slow Btw I think that lvl 1 Q is better than W and Q should be leveled before W as well. note you have about 300 more hp with leash, also what you skill at lvl 1 doesnt matter with leash
Again, that's not bad, but I doubt it's anywhere near competitive. Viable in ranked and normals, sure. But that's pretty dangerously low for a cloth5 start, leash or not.
Clearing at level 8 isn't the point. Anyone can clear quickly at level 8, it's the early levels that make or break jungling, imo. Naut is slow, but safe and has high ganking prowess early on. Early Udyr, Mundo and Shy are fast. WW and Nunu are safe. If Jayce has to go back at 4, and isn't even fast getting there, it's an issue. In my mind, either you're super fast getting to 4 (but have to go back), safe getting to 4 (and have enough health to gank), or both. Jayce seems like neither.
I could be totally wrong, and I'm bad, just making discussion.
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my boy lourlo holding down top lane in this video
gg
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You think so? tested with no leash:
Cloth 5 opening with Jayce: lvl 4 at 3:50 with 1 hp pot and 200 hp
Cloth 5 opening with Shyvana: lvl 4 at 3:35 (Hp situation is somewhat better though)
Most of the difference comes from Shyvana soloing Wolves much much faster, 10+ seconds faster than Jayce. With a pull that doesn't even matter so.
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On July 12 2012 04:27 Slusher wrote:
let me rephrase his post for you..
This is, I think, a superior way to level it to that guide, and here are my reasons.
That said I don't particularally like junglers who need to start cloth 5.
(you are the only one who took it as an insult)
p.s. the original post came across as looking for feedback because you didn't seem quite pleased yet
you dont have to rephrase anything. i can read (and please, im not insulted, im not offended, i dont hate u, but he wrote what he wrote).
if he said 'i dont particularly like junglers who start cloth' i would have said i disagree in certain cases. no, he said starting cloth immediately invalidates a jungler. and also 'competitive play' lol. how many of us are involved in competitive play? solo que and tournament lvl are much different from each other, and afaik none of us here play on a pro team. but if you go by how some people post you would think they are part of the riot dev team or a fancy streamer with 20k viewers who can change the meta with a few words of wisdom that somehow was lost on the rest of us.
im sorry but solo que means nothing and does not constitute 'competitive play'. azingy does wierd shit and IT WORKS. there is a generally accepted way to play, but it is by no means the only to play. thinking otherwise is just so close-minded and shortsighted. i guess im sensitive to that line of thinking because of my current personal situation which i wont get into here in detail, but ill just say my brother is going through a divorce and my families lack of religious practice has come up multiple times. i would NEVER tell ANYONE what to think about anything because the world is such a vast and varied place that what works for one person isnt the best plan for someone else. because i moved halfway across the country to help my brother (he has a 3 year old severely autistic son who through the visitation agreement lives with us about half the time), and now my beliefs and actions that i had no idea would be relevant to anyone suddenly have bearing on this situation i find extremely frustrating.
this is the best LoL forum ive found, mostly because teamliquid is one of the few havens of intelligent thought on the internet. but this forum would be a more productive place if people werent so sure they were always right.
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On July 12 2012 05:14 Vaporized wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 04:27 Slusher wrote:
let me rephrase his post for you..
This is, I think, a superior way to level it to that guide, and here are my reasons.
That said I don't particularally like junglers who need to start cloth 5.
(you are the only one who took it as an insult)
p.s. the original post came across as looking for feedback because you didn't seem quite pleased yet you dont have to rephrase anything. i can read (and please, im not insulted, im not offended, i dont hate u, but he wrote what he wrote). if he said 'i dont particularly like junglers who start cloth' i would have said i disagree in certain cases. no, he said starting cloth immediately invalidates a jungler. and also 'competitive play' lol. how many of us are involved in competitive play? solo que and tournament lvl are much different from each other, and afaik none of us here play on a pro team. but if you go by how some people post you would think they are part of the riot dev team or a fancy streamer with 20k viewers who can change the meta with a few words of wisdom that somehow was lost on the rest of us. this is the best LoL forum ive found, mostly because teamliquid is one of the few havens of intelligent thought on the internet. but this forum would be a more productive place if people werent so sure they were always right.
Also, CA+5p is always a glaring red flag. Junglers who require that opening to clear safely and effectively are never competitive
I'm failing to interpret "immediately invalidates" from this statement. Regardless, I think this is a non-argument 
So jungling nunu is retardedly safe and should now be recommended over WW for first time junglers (like sub-30). You can get the worst pull (or none at all), have crappy runes, but with smite and consume it's ezpz.
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On July 12 2012 05:35 mordek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 05:14 Vaporized wrote:On July 12 2012 04:27 Slusher wrote:
let me rephrase his post for you..
This is, I think, a superior way to level it to that guide, and here are my reasons.
That said I don't particularally like junglers who need to start cloth 5.
(you are the only one who took it as an insult)
p.s. the original post came across as looking for feedback because you didn't seem quite pleased yet you dont have to rephrase anything. i can read (and please, im not insulted, im not offended, i dont hate u, but he wrote what he wrote). if he said 'i dont particularly like junglers who start cloth' i would have said i disagree in certain cases. no, he said starting cloth immediately invalidates a jungler. and also 'competitive play' lol. how many of us are involved in competitive play? solo que and tournament lvl are much different from each other, and afaik none of us here play on a pro team. but if you go by how some people post you would think they are part of the riot dev team or a fancy streamer with 20k viewers who can change the meta with a few words of wisdom that somehow was lost on the rest of us. this is the best LoL forum ive found, mostly because teamliquid is one of the few havens of intelligent thought on the internet. but this forum would be a more productive place if people werent so sure they were always right. Show nested quote +Also, CA+5p is always a glaring red flag. Junglers who require that opening to clear safely and effectively are never competitive I'm failing to interpret "immediately invalidates" from this statement. Regardless, I think this is a non-argument So jungling nunu is retardedly safe and should now be recommended over WW for first time junglers (like sub-30). You can get the worst pull (or none at all), have crappy runes, but with smite and consume it's ezpz.
i just edited this in:
i guess im sensitive to that line of thinking because of my current personal situation which i wont get into here in detail, but ill just say my brother is going through a divorce and my families lack of religious practice has come up multiple times. i would NEVER tell ANYONE what to think about anything because the world is such a vast and varied place that what works for one person isnt the best plan for someone else. i moved halfway across the country to help my brother (he has a 3 year old severely autistic son who through the visitation agreement lives with us about half the time), and now my beliefs and actions that i had no idea would be relevant to anyone suddenly have bearing on this situation, i find extremely frustrating. anyone who believes they are 100% right (in my brothers soon to be exwifes case, she is morally right in every instance and we are wrong because we dont go to church), just doesnt understand how the world works.
that is why i took exception with his post, and i get the same feeling reading the threads here sometimes as i do when i deal with my brothers exwife and how she treats us. today was actually a really bad day in dealing wiht my personal situation and his post just exacerbated it.
anyway. i should just drink a beer and play a game. i dont hate anyone here, i actually like this forum a lot like i said.
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gosh lol
if you guys look at the back and forth nothing of substance is really being argued
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well as an example I still think Jayce's true home is bottom lane, but most people don't see it my way.
Jayce/Leona is the new and improved Leona/Jarvan.
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United States37500 Posts
On July 12 2012 05:45 Navi wrote:
gosh lol
if you guys look at the back and forth nothing of substance is really being argued
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On July 12 2012 05:47 Slusher wrote:
well as an example I still think Jayce's true home is bottom lane, but most people don't see it my way.
Jayce/Leona is the new and improved Leona/Jarvan.
Jayce is monster kill lane, no doubt about it. I wonder how he'd do with a Blitz support as well.
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On July 12 2012 05:14 Vaporized wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 04:27 Slusher wrote:
let me rephrase his post for you..
This is, I think, a superior way to level it to that guide, and here are my reasons.
That said I don't particularally like junglers who need to start cloth 5.
(you are the only one who took it as an insult)
p.s. the original post came across as looking for feedback because you didn't seem quite pleased yet you dont have to rephrase anything. i can read (and please, im not insulted, im not offended, i dont hate u, but he wrote what he wrote). if he said 'i dont particularly like junglers who start cloth' i would have said i disagree in certain cases. no, he said starting cloth immediately invalidates a jungler. and also 'competive play' lol. how many of us are involved in competive play? solo que and tournament lvl are much different from each other, and afaik none of us here play on a pro team. but if you go by how some people post you would think they are part of the riot dev team or a fancy streamer with 20k viewers who can change the meta with a few words of wisdom that somehow was lost on the rest of us. this is the best LoL forum ive found, mostly because teamliquid is one of the few havens of intelligent thought on the internet. but this forum would be a more productive place if people werent so sure they were always right.
As we reiterated in the last page requiring CA + 5p in order to jungle is what makes a jungler uncompetitive. The opening itself has its situational uses.
I brought the subject up in the first place because the guide you linked required that opening. The boots opening was only effective for a level 2 gank with the intent of recall thereafter. I don't believe I know everything about Jayce, but as of yet no one has provided a setup which clears safely, quickly, and does not open CA + 5p. Until either I or someone else finds a viable alternative I'll hold fast to my opinion that Jayce isn't a competitive jungler.
Note that being uncompetitive isn't the same as being unable to win, even Eve and Xin Zhao can win games. It's just a handicap that becomes more and more apparent as you play better players.
On July 12 2012 04:34 Shikyo wrote:
Why so what? Why Q would be better than W? Mostly because of the AoE for both skills, on 3 targets hammer Q is like a total of 118 dmg or so and ranged Q is a really nice 80 dmg AoE whereas melee W indeed is good at 100 dmg but its cooldown is longer making it same dps as ranged Q and also ranged W is basically just double dmg auto on 1 target on a super long cooldown, longer than melee Q.
On July 12 2012 05:11 Shikyo wrote:
You think so? tested with no leash:
Cloth 5 opening with Jayce: lvl 4 at 3:50 with 1 hp pot and 200 hp
Cloth 5 opening with Shyvana: lvl 4 at 3:35 (Hp situation is somewhat better though)
Most of the difference comes from Shyvana soloing Wolves much much faster, 10+ seconds faster than Jayce. With a pull that doesn't even matter so.
You have roughly 20 AD from runes/masteries, meaning rank 1 Hammer-Q does 40 damage per target and Cannon-Q does 84 damage before armor is accounted for. The total damage from both is 124 damage, only 24 more than Hammer-W alone. Comparatively Cannon-W results in three 70% damage auto-attacks in the same timespan as one normal auto, resulting in a delta of 77 damage to the primary target. The total damage from using both abilities against three targets in either setup is roughly the same, 372 damage with Q and 377 damage with W.
Ultimately W at level 1 is slightly better even with your setup because Hammer-W is not affected by armor, and going from Cannon-W -> Hammer-W -> Hammer-W -> Cannon-W is smoother and gives you more of the benefit of Hammer stance's defenses, while trying to work around Q's cooldown results in more time spent in the slightly less durable Cannon stance.
As for his clear, 350 health (how much you'd have using that last potion) starting CA + 5p is low. That's not enough to safely gank in most circumstances, and also is low enough that direct counter-jungling could be a significant danger.
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Bad days suck. Roll some noobs!
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So you guys were talking about how good viktor players are, and there was one on the other team...
He ended the game 0/3/1 so he still sucks. Haha I bet you thought I was going to say he owned it up and I would eat my words. This is definitely not anecdotal evidence.
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On July 12 2012 06:15 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
So you guys were talking about how good viktor players are, and there was one on the other team...
He ended the game 0/3/1 so he still sucks. Haha I bet you thought I was going to say he owned it up and I would eat my words. This is definitely not anecdotal evidence.
Pretty sure you're still wrong.
Hes the best AP carry in the game.
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So how much have you spent on rp? I haven't spent anything yet. Micro transactions scare me. Who need to buy skins when you have king rammus!!!!!!!
I think i will get some soon for rune pages.
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United States47024 Posts
Do people really get Greed/Wealth on supports?
Those 2 masteries are so trashy. I don't understand why I see people do it.
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On July 12 2012 06:52 TheYango wrote:
Do people really get Greed/Wealth on supports?
Those 2 masteries are so trashy. I don't understand why I see people do it.
Extra GP10 is worth it. The starting gold... well...
I only use the extra starting gold for Ryze.
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EPT
