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Caitlyn has great early poke, absolutely 0 burst, absolutely 0 steroids (Every 6 shots, 50% more damage? At 6 items, that's... like 32 bonus damage per AA). Smart use of her range and traps can make you outfarm and harass any other carry, but the lack of a lategame strength means others are often a good choice.
Despite the lack of burst, the ability to trap under a stunned target generally means her early harass can very easily lead to a great early game, but basing the strength on a champion on the strength of aggressive support is questionable. Her ult is essentially useless in a teamfight, sacrificing consistant DPS for a blockable shot, but has it's uses if your team has already WON a teamfight.
Use her if you're confident that your support can stun/pull in helpful manner and you toss your trap on their escape path, and pew pew to an early victory. Without an early victory, sadly the other team's carry will probably be more valuable.
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Main balance things that will need to be fixed.
1) even out support, sort of ridiculous on how janna and soraka saw the most play time in terms of support.
2) something needs to be done about nautilus, but i don't really see any viable changes to naut. his kit is just solid, any nerf to his damage won't be a big issue, he isn't really about damage (unless its a big damage nerf, then his jungle clear times will be too bad for him to be viable). His CC kit is what makes him deadly.
3)graves is fine at where he's at tbh. He's only there because he seems to be the most consistent lane w/ the soraka combo. (just another phase in ad).
4)Urgot needs nerf (riot did nerf, just not played on this patch), only time will tell how the nerfs will work out.
5)malphite secret op'd, doesn't need nerf yet, but will need one in a 3-4 patch cycle, i feel.
6)Nocturne just feel stupid strong right now in arranged 5's, but I don't know if riot is willing to nerf nocturne just because of arranged 5 play, and have noct fall out of existence in solo q. Don't get me wrong, noct strong in solo queue too, but his strength in this tourney was because his strength increases substantially in a coordinated 5's team.
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On June 11 2012 19:18 wei2coolman wrote:
Main balance things that will need to be fixed.
1) even out support, sort of ridiculous on how janna and soraka saw the most play time in terms of support.
2) something needs to be done about nautilus, but i don't really see any viable changes to naut. his kit is just solid, any nerf to his damage won't be a big issue, he isn't really about damage (unless its a big damage nerf, then his jungle clear times will be too bad for him to be viable). His CC kit is what makes him deadly.
3)graves is fine at where he's at tbh. He's only there because he seems to be the most consistent lane w/ the soraka combo. (just another phase in ad).
4)Urgot needs nerf (riot did nerf, just not played on this patch), only time will tell how the nerfs will work out.
5)malphite secret op'd, doesn't need nerf yet, but will need one in a 3-4 patch cycle, i feel.
6)Nocturne just feel stupid strong right now in arranged 5's, but I don't know if riot is willing to nerf nocturne just because of arranged 5 play, and have noct fall out of existence in solo q. Don't get me wrong, noct strong in solo queue too, but his strength in this tourney was because his strength increases substantially in a coordinated 5's team.
Maybe make naut ult have a max range for the leash? Now it's just retarded. That or make it a stun so it can be cleansed or QSSd
Personally I'd reduce graves ult range by like 100-200 and make blinded people gain vision for like 1s upon getting attacked
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On June 11 2012 19:10 JackDino wrote:
If anyone needs nerfs it's anivia, retarded control, especially mid-late in the jungle and retarded damage without building any AP.
I wouldn't be so quick to throw anivia into "need nerfs" area. The problem is that there aren't enough data with pro players regularly playing anivia. Jiji and froggen are like the only ap mids playing anivia regularly, and even then only 5 games this mlg with anivia in it. And lets face it, jiji and froggen are not just any-ol' ap mid players, they w/ anivia due to skill.
some real weaknesses with anivia: lack of ganking presence in midgame (post 6). Pushing power is costly, and very blue dependent. Though you say she doesn't need AP, jiji still seems to favor RoA and DC. Froggen is the only anivia player that seems to get away with ridiculously tanky builds on anivia (such as warmog/mejais) or (wota/spiritvisage).
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On June 11 2012 19:21 Shikyo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 11 2012 19:18 wei2coolman wrote:
Main balance things that will need to be fixed.
1) even out support, sort of ridiculous on how janna and soraka saw the most play time in terms of support.
2) something needs to be done about nautilus, but i don't really see any viable changes to naut. his kit is just solid, any nerf to his damage won't be a big issue, he isn't really about damage (unless its a big damage nerf, then his jungle clear times will be too bad for him to be viable). His CC kit is what makes him deadly.
3)graves is fine at where he's at tbh. He's only there because he seems to be the most consistent lane w/ the soraka combo. (just another phase in ad).
4)Urgot needs nerf (riot did nerf, just not played on this patch), only time will tell how the nerfs will work out.
5)malphite secret op'd, doesn't need nerf yet, but will need one in a 3-4 patch cycle, i feel.
6)Nocturne just feel stupid strong right now in arranged 5's, but I don't know if riot is willing to nerf nocturne just because of arranged 5 play, and have noct fall out of existence in solo q. Don't get me wrong, noct strong in solo queue too, but his strength in this tourney was because his strength increases substantially in a coordinated 5's team. Maybe make naut ult have a max range for the leash? Now it's just retarded. That or make it a stun so it can be cleansed or QSSd Personally I'd reduce graves ult range by like 100-200 and make blinded people gain vision for like 1s upon getting attacked
Or have it so the closer the ult range detonates, the more damage it will do, just to keep with theme of his Q, but some range reduction on the initial part of his ult would be pretty good.
Any nerf to his Q could possibly make him unplayabe, due to the fact that it's his only redeeming feature.
As far as his smokescreen goes, they just need to remove the slow component, or significantly gimp the slow portion of it.
The blind mechanic is really nice, and any changes to that would be lame just from a design perspective.
Also i feel the popularity of graves definitely has to do with how the urgot/corki plays out. True grit can tank quite a bit of burst damage, and with soraka, Graves is pretty unmovable.
also some things to think about on botlane was pretty interesting on how teams dealt with urgot
a)ban urgot
b)people who wanted urgot, some times banned soraka.
c)alistar + vayne seemed to be clg's solution to urgot (But results were mix'd, good in lane (in theory), but bad in teamfights, vayne's short range seemed to be her massive down fall in teamfights, could get switched very easily)
d)sivir looks like a very viable anti-urgot pick in lane, but similar to vayne's late game, can get switch'd easily.
e)sona saw more play than i anticipated, but didn't really do all that well (most of the sona games seem'd to be against non-urgot lanes, perhaps pro's found out sona sucks even more balls against urgot).
As far as naut's ult goes. it's essentially a malphite ult that can be easily midigated. The biggest thing about it is it's cooldown. Silly that malphite's ulti does less damage than naut's (practically, since they don't really build much ap), and has a longer cooldown. Naut's passive also feels stupid strong sometimes, 1 sec free snare w/ bonus dmg is a bit ridic.....
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On June 11 2012 19:00 Kavas wrote:
if riot isn't lazy they will change other Ad carries instead of nerfing Graves. Honestly it's not like he dominated every game.
They already tried doing that to Graves Vayne and Caitlyn when they were the only 3 AD carrys you could pick and everyone else was bad. They nerfed them and buffed the other ADs like Corki and MF among a few.
Graves is simply broken in lane imo. Only a few ADs can hold their own vs him, Corki being one of them.
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On June 11 2012 19:33 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 19:00 Kavas wrote:
if riot isn't lazy they will change other Ad carries instead of nerfing Graves. Honestly it's not like he dominated every game.
They already tried doing that to Graves Vayne and Caitlyn when they were the only 3 AD carrys you could pick and everyone else was bad. They nerfed them and buffed the other ADs like Corki and MF among a few. Graves is simply broken in lane imo. Only a few ADs can hold their own vs him, Corki being one of them.
Sivir shits on him in lane, Caitlyn also does well against graves, but can't scale as well as him, and doesn't have the ability to shove him out of lane, if they get soraka w/ graves.
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Just started playing again a week or two ago after a several month hiatus, have a quick question regarding AD builds.
Specifically, I see a lot of BT into PD instead of rushing the IE. Is this standard on all champions? What change enabled this? Would a champion that relies solely on right-clicks for damage (as opposed to having abilities with AD ratios) still want to get IE first (Trist/Ashe/etc)?
I'm only 1500 but I'd like to get back into ranked soon and ranged AD was always my strong suit. Just trying to get caught up with any of the changes recently, looking back through patch notes is only but so helpful. Thanks in advance.
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On June 11 2012 19:44 Arckan wrote:
Just started playing again a week or two ago after a several month hiatus, have a quick question regarding AD builds.
Specifically, I see a lot of BT into PD instead of rushing the IE. Is this standard on all champions? What change enabled this? Would a champion that relies solely on right-clicks for damage (as opposed to having abilities with AD ratios) still want to get IE first (Trist/Ashe/etc)?
I'm only 1500 but I'd like to get back into ranked soon and ranged AD was always my strong suit. Just trying to get caught up with any of the changes recently, looking back through patch notes is only but so helpful. Thanks in advance.
The BT into PD is mostly for those w/ strong AD ratios on their cast. Sivir/Graves/Vayne. (Vayne is there because her extremely short range makes it so she takes more aoe dmg than she would like, the BT helps her stay in prolonged teamfights)
2nd reason you get BT, is if laning phase is going to be prolonged (rarely happens).
Still most standard AD build is
boots 3 pot->2 dblade-> zerker boots-> BF + vamp sceptre -> IE->PD->BT (or LW)->LW (or BT)->GA/QSS/FrozMallet (usually only see aphro go frozmallet).
6 item build for sivir/graves/vayne is still standard AD build.
Only real AD ranged champs that deviate from this is, Ez and Corki, they usually get triforce instead of PD.
Ashe (chaox build) is boots 3 pot -> double dblade -> zerker boots-> zeal -> IE->pd->etc.etc.
Urgot has completely different build. Standard is usually
boots 3 pot->2-3 dblades->merc/ionian boots/ninja tabi->brutalizer->glacial shroud->frzn heart (or hex drinker)->frzn heart->LW->GA->switch BT w/ brutalizer or finish ghostblade.
doublelift's urgot build (didn't see whole game, so i don't know progression but final build was)
Reverie+manamune+BT+ionian boots. I'm guessing final build would be LW/GA.
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On June 11 2012 19:44 Arckan wrote:
Just started playing again a week or two ago after a several month hiatus, have a quick question regarding AD builds.
Specifically, I see a lot of BT into PD instead of rushing the IE. Is this standard on all champions? What change enabled this? Would a champion that relies solely on right-clicks for damage (as opposed to having abilities with AD ratios) still want to get IE first (Trist/Ashe/etc)?
I'm only 1500 but I'd like to get back into ranked soon and ranged AD was always my strong suit. Just trying to get caught up with any of the changes recently, looking back through patch notes is only but so helpful. Thanks in advance.
I think part of it is that basically every ad carry now always gets a Vampiric Scepter for sustain very early (something like berzerker boots, 1-3 dorans blades, vampiric scepter), so if they notice that they can't get their IE farm they fall back on the BT. Don't think it was any patch change, only a change in play styles (sustain > damage).
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On June 11 2012 19:24 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 19:10 JackDino wrote:
If anyone needs nerfs it's anivia, retarded control, especially mid-late in the jungle and retarded damage without building any AP. I wouldn't be so quick to throw anivia into "need nerfs" area. The problem is that there aren't enough data with pro players regularly playing anivia. Jiji and froggen are like the only ap mids playing anivia regularly, and even then only 5 games this mlg with anivia in it. And lets face it, jiji and froggen are not just any-ol' ap mid players, they w/ anivia due to skill. some real weaknesses with anivia: lack of ganking presence in midgame (post 6). Pushing power is costly, and very blue dependent. Though you say she doesn't need AP, jiji still seems to favor RoA and DC. Froggen is the only anivia player that seems to get away with ridiculously tanky builds on anivia (such as warmog/mejais) or (wota/spiritvisage).
Anivia is definetly OP.
I'm not sure why you want to wait for even more pros to abuse her, but if that is actually the deciding factor for balance, nerfs are gonna take forever. Just look at how long it took pros to realize how OP Cass was, even after Oce raped everything in sight with her.
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On June 11 2012 19:49 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 19:44 Arckan wrote:
Just started playing again a week or two ago after a several month hiatus, have a quick question regarding AD builds.
Specifically, I see a lot of BT into PD instead of rushing the IE. Is this standard on all champions? What change enabled this? Would a champion that relies solely on right-clicks for damage (as opposed to having abilities with AD ratios) still want to get IE first (Trist/Ashe/etc)?
I'm only 1500 but I'd like to get back into ranked soon and ranged AD was always my strong suit. Just trying to get caught up with any of the changes recently, looking back through patch notes is only but so helpful. Thanks in advance. The BT into PD is mostly for those w/ strong AD ratios on their cast. Sivir/Graves/Vayne. (Vayne is there because her extremely short range makes it so she takes more aoe dmg than she would like, the BT helps her stay in prolonged teamfights) 2nd reason you get BT, is if laning phase is going to be prolonged (rarely happens). Still most standard AD build is boots 3 pot->2 dblade-> BF + vamp sceptre -> IE->PD->BT (or LW)->LW (or BT)->GA/QSS/FrozMallet (usually only see aphro go frozmallet). 6 item build for sivir/graves/vayne is still standard AD build. Only real AD ranged champs that deviate from this is, Ez and Corki, they usually get triforce instead of PD.
Not quite right. BT is popular now because you only lose half the stack now in death rather than all of it (aka no more "brb need to farm 40 creeps" after every death to be usefull again.) Other than that everything else you mentioned is correct.
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On June 11 2012 19:51 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 19:24 wei2coolman wrote:On June 11 2012 19:10 JackDino wrote:
If anyone needs nerfs it's anivia, retarded control, especially mid-late in the jungle and retarded damage without building any AP. I wouldn't be so quick to throw anivia into "need nerfs" area. The problem is that there aren't enough data with pro players regularly playing anivia. Jiji and froggen are like the only ap mids playing anivia regularly, and even then only 5 games this mlg with anivia in it. And lets face it, jiji and froggen are not just any-ol' ap mid players, they w/ anivia due to skill. some real weaknesses with anivia: lack of ganking presence in midgame (post 6). Pushing power is costly, and very blue dependent. Though you say she doesn't need AP, jiji still seems to favor RoA and DC. Froggen is the only anivia player that seems to get away with ridiculously tanky builds on anivia (such as warmog/mejais) or (wota/spiritvisage). Anivia is definetly OP. I'm not sure why you want to wait for even more pros to abuse her, but if that is actually the deciding factor for balance, nerfs are gonna take forever. Just look at how long it took pros to realize how OP Cass was, even after Oce raped everything in sight with her.
I give reasons as to why I don't think Anivia is as strong as people says she is. All I get from a counter argument is "Anivia is definitely op". Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I don't even know why I bother commenting back >.>
I'm not saying more pros need to abuse her, what I'm saying is there needs to be more data points before any conclusion. 5 games in MLG w/ 4 wins under her belt doesn't automatically make her OP'd. Jiji played very strong with her, but it is jiji, he's not some average mid laner that's abusing anivia's supposed "op'd". jiji's very good with anivia, there's nothing to suggest that anivia carries jiji, rather than jiji carrying w/ anivia.
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On June 11 2012 19:55 Kavas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 19:49 wei2coolman wrote:On June 11 2012 19:44 Arckan wrote:
Just started playing again a week or two ago after a several month hiatus, have a quick question regarding AD builds.
Specifically, I see a lot of BT into PD instead of rushing the IE. Is this standard on all champions? What change enabled this? Would a champion that relies solely on right-clicks for damage (as opposed to having abilities with AD ratios) still want to get IE first (Trist/Ashe/etc)?
I'm only 1500 but I'd like to get back into ranked soon and ranged AD was always my strong suit. Just trying to get caught up with any of the changes recently, looking back through patch notes is only but so helpful. Thanks in advance. The BT into PD is mostly for those w/ strong AD ratios on their cast. Sivir/Graves/Vayne. (Vayne is there because her extremely short range makes it so she takes more aoe dmg than she would like, the BT helps her stay in prolonged teamfights) 2nd reason you get BT, is if laning phase is going to be prolonged (rarely happens). Still most standard AD build is boots 3 pot->2 dblade-> BF + vamp sceptre -> IE->PD->BT (or LW)->LW (or BT)->GA/QSS/FrozMallet (usually only see aphro go frozmallet). 6 item build for sivir/graves/vayne is still standard AD build. Only real AD ranged champs that deviate from this is, Ez and Corki, they usually get triforce instead of PD. Not quite right. BT is popular now because you only lose half the stack now in death rather than all of it (aka no more "brb need to farm 40 creeps" after every death to be usefull again.) Other than that everything else you mentioned is correct.
I don't think I saw a single BT first out of any AD carries at MLG, with exception of sivir/graves/vayne.
and once with dryus's kayle.
It's still very rare for most AD carries to rush BT over IE.
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On June 11 2012 19:59 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 19:51 Dandel Ion wrote:On June 11 2012 19:24 wei2coolman wrote:On June 11 2012 19:10 JackDino wrote:
If anyone needs nerfs it's anivia, retarded control, especially mid-late in the jungle and retarded damage without building any AP. I wouldn't be so quick to throw anivia into "need nerfs" area. The problem is that there aren't enough data with pro players regularly playing anivia. Jiji and froggen are like the only ap mids playing anivia regularly, and even then only 5 games this mlg with anivia in it. And lets face it, jiji and froggen are not just any-ol' ap mid players, they w/ anivia due to skill. some real weaknesses with anivia: lack of ganking presence in midgame (post 6). Pushing power is costly, and very blue dependent. Though you say she doesn't need AP, jiji still seems to favor RoA and DC. Froggen is the only anivia player that seems to get away with ridiculously tanky builds on anivia (such as warmog/mejais) or (wota/spiritvisage). Anivia is definetly OP. I'm not sure why you want to wait for even more pros to abuse her, but if that is actually the deciding factor for balance, nerfs are gonna take forever. Just look at how long it took pros to realize how OP Cass was, even after Oce raped everything in sight with her. I give reasons as to why I don't think Anivia is as strong as people says she is. All I get from a counter argument is "Anivia is definitely op". Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I don't even know why I bother commenting back >.> I'm not saying more pros need to abuse her, what I'm saying is there needs to be more data points before any conclusion. 5 games in MLG w/ 4 wins under her belt doesn't automatically make her OP'd. Jiji played very strong with her, but it is jiji, he's not some average mid laner that's abusing anivia's supposed "op'd". jiji's very good with anivia, there's nothing to suggest that anivia carries jiji, rather than jiji carrying w/ anivia.
Your arguments are not as good as you think they are.
A stun and a wall is great ganking support, very easy to force a flash and kill on the next gank. Other mids have NOTHING (morde, cass, ...)
She's blue dependent, but at the same time, because of the wall, it's incredibly risky to steal her blue. She catches you, and again, flash or dead.
A free revive to win 1v1 trades early.
She has unparalelled utility for a mid in her wall, incredible base damage WITH strong AP ratios
I just see good points, no glaring weaknesses. Dunno where you are looking >.>
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On June 11 2012 20:06 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 19:59 wei2coolman wrote:On June 11 2012 19:51 Dandel Ion wrote:On June 11 2012 19:24 wei2coolman wrote:On June 11 2012 19:10 JackDino wrote:
If anyone needs nerfs it's anivia, retarded control, especially mid-late in the jungle and retarded damage without building any AP. I wouldn't be so quick to throw anivia into "need nerfs" area. The problem is that there aren't enough data with pro players regularly playing anivia. Jiji and froggen are like the only ap mids playing anivia regularly, and even then only 5 games this mlg with anivia in it. And lets face it, jiji and froggen are not just any-ol' ap mid players, they w/ anivia due to skill. some real weaknesses with anivia: lack of ganking presence in midgame (post 6). Pushing power is costly, and very blue dependent. Though you say she doesn't need AP, jiji still seems to favor RoA and DC. Froggen is the only anivia player that seems to get away with ridiculously tanky builds on anivia (such as warmog/mejais) or (wota/spiritvisage). Anivia is definetly OP. I'm not sure why you want to wait for even more pros to abuse her, but if that is actually the deciding factor for balance, nerfs are gonna take forever. Just look at how long it took pros to realize how OP Cass was, even after Oce raped everything in sight with her. I give reasons as to why I don't think Anivia is as strong as people says she is. All I get from a counter argument is "Anivia is definitely op". Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I don't even know why I bother commenting back >.> I'm not saying more pros need to abuse her, what I'm saying is there needs to be more data points before any conclusion. 5 games in MLG w/ 4 wins under her belt doesn't automatically make her OP'd. Jiji played very strong with her, but it is jiji, he's not some average mid laner that's abusing anivia's supposed "op'd". jiji's very good with anivia, there's nothing to suggest that anivia carries jiji, rather than jiji carrying w/ anivia. Your arguments are not as good as you think they are. A stun and a wall is great ganking support, very easy to force a flash and kill on the next gank. Other mids have NOTHING (morde, cass, ...) She's blue dependent, but at the same time, because of the wall, it's incredibly risky to steal her blue. She catches you, and again, flash or dead. A free revive to win 1v1 trades early. She has unparalelled utility for a mid in her wall, incredible base damage WITH strong AP ratios I just see good points, no glaring weaknesses. Dunno where you are looking >.>
Her mobility is non-existent. She also really needs to land a stun to do a lot of damage.
I think the fact that she is blue dependent alone is a major drawback. While it is dangerous to try and steal it if she is prepared with teammates, if she DOES lose it, her laning goes down significantly.
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On June 11 2012 19:59 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 19:51 Dandel Ion wrote:On June 11 2012 19:24 wei2coolman wrote:On June 11 2012 19:10 JackDino wrote:
If anyone needs nerfs it's anivia, retarded control, especially mid-late in the jungle and retarded damage without building any AP. I wouldn't be so quick to throw anivia into "need nerfs" area. The problem is that there aren't enough data with pro players regularly playing anivia. Jiji and froggen are like the only ap mids playing anivia regularly, and even then only 5 games this mlg with anivia in it. And lets face it, jiji and froggen are not just any-ol' ap mid players, they w/ anivia due to skill. some real weaknesses with anivia: lack of ganking presence in midgame (post 6). Pushing power is costly, and very blue dependent. Though you say she doesn't need AP, jiji still seems to favor RoA and DC. Froggen is the only anivia player that seems to get away with ridiculously tanky builds on anivia (such as warmog/mejais) or (wota/spiritvisage). Anivia is definetly OP. I'm not sure why you want to wait for even more pros to abuse her, but if that is actually the deciding factor for balance, nerfs are gonna take forever. Just look at how long it took pros to realize how OP Cass was, even after Oce raped everything in sight with her. I give reasons as to why I don't think Anivia is as strong as people says she is. All I get from a counter argument is "Anivia is definitely op". Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I don't even know why I bother commenting back >.> I'm not saying more pros need to abuse her, what I'm saying is there needs to be more data points before any conclusion. 5 games in MLG w/ 4 wins under her belt doesn't automatically make her OP'd. Jiji played very strong with her, but it is jiji, he's not some average mid laner that's abusing anivia's supposed "op'd". jiji's very good with anivia, there's nothing to suggest that anivia carries jiji, rather than jiji carrying w/ anivia.
Proper Wall -> guaranteed kill with no risk and tiny cooldown
Insane burst damage, highest base AP ratios of normal spells in the entire game
Permaslow
Amazing farming
2 lives
Incredible long range guaranteed harrass in lane that costs next to nothing
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On June 11 2012 19:49 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 19:44 Arckan wrote:
Just started playing again a week or two ago after a several month hiatus, have a quick question regarding AD builds.
Specifically, I see a lot of BT into PD instead of rushing the IE. Is this standard on all champions? What change enabled this? Would a champion that relies solely on right-clicks for damage (as opposed to having abilities with AD ratios) still want to get IE first (Trist/Ashe/etc)?
I'm only 1500 but I'd like to get back into ranked soon and ranged AD was always my strong suit. Just trying to get caught up with any of the changes recently, looking back through patch notes is only but so helpful. Thanks in advance. The BT into PD is mostly for those w/ strong AD ratios on their cast. Sivir/Graves/Vayne. (Vayne is there because her extremely short range makes it so she takes more aoe dmg than she would like, the BT helps her stay in prolonged teamfights) 2nd reason you get BT, is if laning phase is going to be prolonged (rarely happens). Still most standard AD build is boots 3 pot->2 dblade-> zerker boots-> BF + vamp sceptre -> IE->PD->BT (or LW)->LW (or BT)->GA/QSS/FrozMallet (usually only see aphro go frozmallet). 6 item build for sivir/graves/vayne is still standard AD build. Only real AD ranged champs that deviate from this is, Ez and Corki, they usually get triforce instead of PD. Ashe (chaox build) is boots 3 pot -> double dblade -> zerker boots-> zeal -> IE->pd->etc.etc. Urgot has completely different build. Standard is usually boots 3 pot->2-3 dblades->merc/ionian boots/ninja tabi->brutalizer->glacial shroud->frzn heart (or hex drinker)->frzn heart->LW->GA->switch BT w/ brutalizer or finish ghostblade. doublelift's urgot build (didn't see whole game, so i don't know progression but final build was) Reverie+manamune+BT+ionian boots. I'm guessing final build would be LW/GA.
Thanks, this is immensely helpful. Follow-up question, is Urgot only viable with certain team compositions? It seems like he's built more like a bruiser top than an AD carry. I can see his CC being really useful but I imagine he doesn't have the same kind of damage output as a traditional carry with that kind of itemization.
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Urgot is best if you got stuff like Kennen/Vlad and topright side so you can give Urgot golems, apart from that he's really good at well... killing everything. Mostly tanky comps with sustained fighting.
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Naut's ult actually has a leash range: if you run far enough, the ult will stop by itself before reaching you. But it's arguably quite long.
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EPT
