EPT[Patch 1.0.0.141: Draven] General Discussion - Page 249
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Those nerfs also affect Nautilane, both mid and top, while his problem was being depicted as his jungle. Nerfing W's damage, and his ult's, would reduce his burst and overall damage, without taking too much away from his tankiness/pushing power, nor making him unable to kill his opponent whoever he is. Regarding CC, I'd consider his passive as a "hard" cc in terms of ganks, unless there's somebody like Janna involved, who can ruin your day with her spells alone. It never really bothered me though, as very often my passive would only trigger if I hit a Q, as a lot of champs move fast enough that they'll outrun not only you, but also your auto-attack animation (which is pretty fucking frustrating, think Ryze's W when you barely move faster than your opponent and are in W range, but need to run 7 more seconds to be in animaton-then-W-cast range), practically making you unable to root them, and thus to reach them. The last couple of times I played him I've been ruined by that glitch which triggers Q even when there're people only behind you, so I may be biaised toward the effectiveness of his kit. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On July 03 2012 23:46 TwoToneTerran wrote: Ziggs is also absurdly good at zoning to an extent that Gragas only dreams of. He's the only champ that can completely cut off an entire lane persistently for like 10 seconds with his w and e while still harassing with his Q. It's just his damage is all skillshots with limited utility in a straight up fight so he's a bit underwhelming if he doesn't have a really solid tank line with decent cc in front of him. the problem is that his mana costs are so absurdly high that he can't really zone for more than 2-3 spell cycles. He's also extremely skillshot reliant so if your team can't take an objective within his 2-3 spell cycles and/or hit every single spell he's going to be pretty useless if a teamfight gets initiated. Blue buff definitely helps him, but over-reliance on blue buff is a big weakness in itself. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
I lol'd. | ||
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Shadowpostin
Germany798 Posts
On July 03 2012 23:57 Ryuu314 wrote: the problem is that his mana costs are so absurdly high that he can't really zone for more than 2-3 spell cycles. He's also extremely skillshot reliant so if your team can't take an objective within his 2-3 spell cycles and/or hit every single spell he's going to be pretty useless if a teamfight gets initiated. Blue buff definitely helps him, but over-reliance on blue buff is a big weakness in itself. I play ziggs a lot and I don't think it's such a big deal as you are saying,he is blue buff reliant but he is definitely playable without one.It's sorta like with anivia players,if your good and you know how to hit the spells your supposed to,your going to be a god,if not you'll be oom pretty quick.Ziggs problem as TTT said is that he really needs a beefy tank line to shine and you need to be a really good player that knows how to hit skill shots.He's pretty hard to play right now and people like all-purpose a-move mids so there's little reason to become good with him. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On July 04 2012 00:00 Mogwai wrote: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=14642327#43534 I lol'd. We get a lot of hate from outside communities, huh? | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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Ferrose
United States11378 Posts
On July 03 2012 23:48 Alaric wrote: I'd rather have Naut's W nerfed at higher levels (he still needs the early base to be able to clear quickly, E first is a lot slower and if you tried a level 2 gank with QE leading to a useless level 1 shield at level 3 you know how much of a pain it is to try and farm the jungle from 2 to 4 with him, unless you go camp and get xp through kills/tax). I don't like the dredge line cd nerf because I have a lot of fun with the spell's interaction with terrain, and making it barely usable more than once per teamfight for the biggest part of the game takes a lot of that fun, while not being able to solo squishies at level 9 with a recurve and full combo doesn't stop me from hitting people with the shield on to do some damage in teamfights, nor does it stop my jungling. Those nerfs also affect Nautilane, both mid and top, while his problem was being depicted as his jungle. Nerfing W's damage, and his ult's, would reduce his burst and overall damage, without taking too much away from his tankiness/pushing power, nor making him unable to kill his opponent whoever he is. Regarding CC, I'd consider his passive as a "hard" cc in terms of ganks, unless there's somebody like Janna involved, who can ruin your day with her spells alone. It never really bothered me though, as very often my passive would only trigger if I hit a Q, as a lot of champs move fast enough that they'll outrun not only you, but also your auto-attack animation (which is pretty fucking frustrating, think Ryze's W when you barely move faster than your opponent and are in W range, but need to run 7 more seconds to be in animaton-then-W-cast range), practically making you unable to root them, and thus to reach them. The last couple of times I played him I've been ruined by that glitch which triggers Q even when there're people only behind you, so I may be biaised toward the effectiveness of his kit. Yeah I think they missed the point here. Q isn't what makes Nautilus so good, it's his other spells. It's nice though that now you can't just walk into a lane and use R every time you want to gank. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
They buffed the scaling on W, but really just moved that 0.2 AP ratio away from Q while killing Q's damage by a pretty solid amount. You can really feel the damage nerf to Q and it doesn't feel that good. The damage and the cooldown about the same, but... what it really means is I need to land 25% more balls with the change and use 25% more mana or just flat out max W first. I've been maxing Q since I saw Salce do it a long time ago, and it is (was) significantly stronger because you dont just get auto-mana starved and it allows you to actually use W for for purposes other than attacking. If I maxing W I need to make sure I hit them with it, which means its always on CD and I can't run fast/put slow field away from ganks. They made the ball feel much faster and more responsive, so thats cool, I just... different. They give you this awesome utility spell and then pigeonhole how you use it because it is your best tool offensively. | ||
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Mondeezy
United States1938 Posts
Haven't played the game since D3 but frankly I'm bored of that and am looking to start playing again. Any game-breaking changes I need to know about? Play solo top, adc, jungle. Also, counters to Darius top for future reference?  Thx <3 | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
Also, PBE thoughts. Akali changes are annoying. Even if they're only marginally buffing her, it means people are going to play her more, and I hate Akali. Ali changes are nice (heal was too spammable), don't think it'll change his viability at all. Cait change is nice, but not much overall. Fiora change is nothing. Graggy change is interesting, I didn't really think he needed too much work though. He seemed fine as-is. Janna nerfs are needed, probably, but she'll still be completely viable since they didn't hit her Q or E, in my mind. Zephyr was probably too much utility at low levels, to the point of not getting boots 2 until after Reverie/Aegis/Zeke's. Fuck yes Kennen nerfs. Lux changes annoy me purely for the fact that I just hate her already. Now I'm going to see more bad ones on my team claiming that her buffs made her great then feeding 0-6 anyway. MF changes are... something. I don't know if buffing her utility in MiR was necessary, but it'll be nice I guess. Naut changes are just wrong in my opinion. Dredge line, if anything, should get a hitbox change. The CD was already long enought that you only got it off 1 or 2 times in a fight anyway. And while 20 seconds on the ult is probably a smart move, it's still not going to keep it from getting abused every time it's up. I'll just pressure gank or get an extra camp between uses now. They should have hit his W if anything. Nunu is going to be a beast and a half, no other way to put it. Don't play enough Ori to have thoughts, though it looks pretty balanced change-wise, just wanting people to use W over Q. Xerath will be more annoying, but no one will still play him. Fuck Ziggs. Item changes look nice, honestly. Athene's needed some love, Ionic is better but will probably still be unbought, and QSS need a hit in some way at least to encourage other defensive items. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On July 03 2012 23:24 jcarlsoniv wrote: No reason to play Ziggs with Graggy in the champ pool, imo. More mobility, built in sustain and tankiness, and a better ult. Which is sad, cuz Ziggs is super fun to play. And I think the Xerath buff was more of an "attention buff". Riot made a fairly strong but super boring mid, and they are real sad about it. Ugh. If that's the only buff they're giving Xerath in compensation for the MASSIVE nerf to his ultimate I'm going to be a very sad panda. Sigh....and my list of underplayed mid champions to surprise people in solo queue goes down... Also the Nunu buff isn't as bad as I thought....that buff to his passive though is still pretty ridic. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
That guy was very bad at handling jukes, but even then only one spell hit was enough to wreck me. I didn't remember him hitting that hard. | ||
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Perplex
United States1693 Posts
On July 04 2012 00:39 iCanada wrote: Man, I thought they buffed Ori, but... I dunno, seems more like a lateral move than anything. They buffed the scaling on W, but really just moved that 0.2 AP ratio away from Q while killing Q's damage by a pretty solid amount. You can really feel the damage nerf to Q and it doesn't feel that good. The damage and the cooldown about the same, but... what it really means is I need to land 25% more balls with the change and use 25% more mana or just flat out max W first. I've been maxing Q since I saw Salce do it a long time ago, and it is (was) significantly stronger because you dont just get auto-mana starved and it allows you to actually use W for for purposes other than attacking. If I maxing W I need to make sure I hit them with it, which means its always on CD and I can't run fast/put slow field away from ganks. They made the ball feel much faster and more responsive, so thats cool, I just... different. They give you this awesome utility spell and then pigeonhole how you use it because it is your best tool offensively. Exactly. It's really disappointing. I'm sure riot would argue "yeah but now you have to CHOOSE whether you want W to be utility or damage, so it will separate the GOOD players from the GREAT ones". But in reality you're pretty much obligated to use it for damage 90% of the time since you have to max it :\ I'll try Orianna after the patch, but I doubt she's going to be much better off | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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emraaa
Germany505 Posts
On July 04 2012 01:39 Perplex wrote: Exactly. It's really disappointing. I'm sure riot would argue "yeah but now you have to CHOOSE whether you want W to be utility or damage, so it will separate the GOOD players from the GREAT ones". But in reality you're pretty much obligated to use it for damage 90% of the time since you have to max it :\ I'll try Orianna after the patch, but I doubt she's going to be much better off Froggen already maxes W | ||
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Kenpachi
United States9908 Posts
On July 04 2012 00:00 Mogwai wrote: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=14642327#43534 I lol'd. lmfao | ||
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thenexusp
United States3721 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
I'm not saying W max bad, more that I dont get a choice between the two now. W max has always done more damage than Q max, thing is that Q max gave you more zone control, a lighter mana load, a better ability to clear waves, and more choice on how to utilize the MS buff/debuff on her W. Now they identical mana wise, identical in terms of mana, and W does a ridiculous amount more damage per level. The gap in damage used to be 40 vs 45 per level, now it is 30 vs 45. That and with the scaling change I can't use W for utility in a teamfight because W is now a significantly larger chunk of my damage than it was before. It feels like i have less options rather than more. I definitely like the new ball speed though, feels much more fluid. | ||
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