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On June 29 2012 15:53 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 15:16 Requizen wrote:On June 29 2012 14:29 Alzadar wrote:On June 29 2012 14:06 Requizen wrote:
Why the hell do people consistently play Lux mid? She's not even good, she's just annoying and sometimes has decent burst when she's not dead or dying. You aren't being very fair in your judgement here. Lux has many unique strengths, notably the massive range on all of her spells, a snare that hits two people, an AoE shield and huge nuke ultimate with a tiny cooldown. I mean, Lux can plausibly chunk two people from 1000 range (her full combo at level 18 is 1190 + 2.05AP, all multi-target and an easy hit after landing Q). You can't tell me she's completely useless. Eh, I just think if you want a long range mage, you can do much better than Lux. She's not useless, but there are just much better picks, and I honestly don't think her pros outweigh her cons in any consistent manner. She feels outclassed in nearly every way by people like Ziggs, Ahri, and Karthus. Not only that, but Lux tends to attract "those" types of players. I'm kind of confused about you mentioning Karthus, Lux and Karthus are pretty much polar opposites as far as AP carries go, they're nearly incomparable. Karthus is a lowish-range suicide mage and no hard CC, with a weak lane phase but a monstrous late-game: Lux is the opposite on every count. Ahri is also curious to bring up. She's probably "better" than Lux, but not in many measurable ways. Ahri is much more team-independent than Lux and does significantly more single-target damage, but Lux has huge team utility and her AoE is more likely to hit multiple targets. Ziggs however, is a very good champion to compare with Lux. Both long range with good zone control, excellent laners with subpar damage lategame. Their Es and Rs are both very similar to each other. I feel like Lux is actually better though: unlike Ziggs she has real CC, and can detonate her slow field for immediate damage if she wishes, versus Ziggs' minefield which is really just an obstacle, not a real damage source. Lux's ultimate is almost certainly better than Ziggs' since having less than half the CD makes it plausible to land two in a fight. They are both very underplayed champions, and I think the reason isn't an inherent weakness in the champions, but rather the fact that AP Kog'Maw fills the role of huge range poke so much better than anyone else that it's not even worth playing the alternatives.
Sorry it took me a while to respond, sleep OP.
Karth may be an odd comparison, but I mainly compare them because of the ults (both AoE, good in teamfights, and long to global range) and the fact that everything they both do is AoE and 1 utility spell. Karth is more close and suicide-y while Lux is more ranged and snipe-y, but in then end both of them have the objective of throwing out a utility spell (shield or wall), and then laying out as much AoE damage as possible before escaping or dying. I feel that in this regard, even though he generally ends with more deaths, Karth out does Lux. Lux's strength obviously lies in the early laning game, where Karth struggles until he gets some items, but I'd rather have someone that I'm sure will do good damage later on than someone that has a chance of winning lane.
Ahri feels similar to me in a couple ways. You want both to lead with their ranged CC and damage (in this case, Taunt/Orb or Light Binding) and then good AoE damage while remaining safe. Lux does this with her range, ult, and E; Ahri accomplishes it with Fox Fire and Ult to dash around. Both can thrive in lane depending on opponents (Ahri crushing immobile opponents and Lux outranging many), but Ahri feels overall safer thanks to mobility and just more damaging.
It may just be observational bias, but even in games I've played where a Lux wins her lane by CS or kills, she doesn't seem to do much after that. She feels like the Cait of AP mids, but not quite as dominant in lane.
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On June 30 2012 01:00 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 00:54 TheYango wrote:On June 30 2012 00:50 SnetteL wrote:
Items shouldn't be made in function of a particular meta. The game lacks good low-cost support item actives to begin with. Support itemization overall is pretty shitty. imo the game lacks good item actives in general. there's only like...2-3 good item actives in the game.
At least this has been addressed, with the addition of that locket thingy. Sure, there are still myriad more unexplored avenues, but at least it's a start.
But yeah, I like Yango's idea, especially if the components weren't gp/10's.
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On June 30 2012 01:07 Dgiese wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 01:00 Ryuu314 wrote:On June 30 2012 00:54 TheYango wrote:On June 30 2012 00:50 SnetteL wrote:
Items shouldn't be made in function of a particular meta. The game lacks good low-cost support item actives to begin with. Support itemization overall is pretty shitty. imo the game lacks good item actives in general. there's only like...2-3 good item actives in the game. At least this has been addressed, with the addition of that locket thingy. Sure, there are still myriad more unexplored avenues, but at least it's a start. But yeah, I like Yango's idea, especially if the components weren't gp/10's.
the locket kinda sucks imo. by the time a support can reasonably get it, the shield strength isn't all that great. it's also pretty cost-ineffective too. Unlike reverie, locket will never be bought by junglers/top laners because HoG has an alternate build path (Randuins) that's superior to Locket on junglers/top laners in 99% of situations.
imo, really good actives: shurelias, zhonyas, randuins, qss
okay actives: gunblade
situational actives: dfg, ghostblade
bad actives: locket
I dont really count wriggles as an active, cause I think it's more of a gold-generating passive, but it'd go up in good actives if I did.
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United States47024 Posts
The main issue with support itemization IMO is that Riot prices so many of the support items in the 2000-2500 gold range (Shurelya's, Aegis, Starks, Soul Shroud, etc.), but those are outside of the reliably buyable range for a support.
You want your "core" items to be items you can rely on having at around 15 minutes, once teamfights start happening. Most other roles have core items they expect to hit in a similar time-frame. At 15 minutes, there's pretty much no way you can expect a support to have the gold for any of those 2k+ support items--30 minutes is a more reasonable time for them. As such, they qualify more as "luxury" items, and you can only really expect to get 1 of them usually (2 if you're doing especially well).
"Core" support items need to be priced in the range of 800-1500 gold, to be attainable in time for the early teamfights.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/p4nhE.jpg)
After falling down to 1100...
Weird game.
Highlights:
Nasus managed to go 5/1 vs. Olaf top
Jungle ali out cs everyone but nasus at 20min
Nasus x3 everyone elses cs at 20min (x2 jungle ali)
Lee sin starts longsword in jungle
Xin started long sword
Cait started dblade
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On June 30 2012 01:19 TheYango wrote:
The main issue with support itemization IMO is that Riot prices so many of the support items in the 2000-2500 gold range (Shurelya's, Aegis, Starks, Soul Shroud, etc.), but those are outside of the reliably buyable range for a support.
You want your "core" items to be items you can rely on having at around 15 minutes, once teamfights start happening. Most other roles have core items they expect to hit in a similar time-frame. At 15 minutes, there's pretty much no way you can expect a support to have the gold for any of those 2k+ support items--30 minutes is a more reasonable time for them. As such, they qualify more as "luxury" items, and you can only really expect to get 1 of them usually (2 if you're doing especially well).
"Core" support items need to be priced in the range of 800-1500 gold, to be attainable in time for the early teamfights.
To be fair, the fact supports dont get there items till 30 minutes is really because of how their item builds are set in stone.
Its philo's, boots, hog (or hog - boots) 2nd tier boots - then upgrading to shurlias or rushing something else (such as aegis) (Of course we're factoring in the cost of many wards here too, perhaps an oracles depending.)
If supports would just take philo or hog + boots at start with the gp/5 runes and then rush to upgrade their gp5 (shurlias or locket) its possible for them to get it at around 13-15 minutes. Then to build their 2nd GP5 and go for starks / aegis with the monies bonus, later upgrading.
Dunno really..im theory crafting but it got me thinking, as i main support (only low elo anyway..~1500ish) i'll try it out and see what happens.
Thoughts? XD
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Wow man, Kennen wins almost every lane so easy, just wow... Melee champs get all their CS denied, most ranged mages as well, and in the rare case you have to lane against something that owns you hard you just farm with q from a distance! Great buy :D
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United States47024 Posts
On June 30 2012 01:33 Capped wrote:
If supports would just take philo or hog + boots at start with the gp/5 runes and then rush to upgrade their gp5 (shurlias or locket) its possible for them to get it at around 13-15 minutes. Then to build their 2nd GP5 and go for starks / aegis with the monies bonus, later upgrading.
Average support income expects to see Philo+HoG+Boots at 15-20 minutes. You can get them earlier if you get FB or something, but that's not reliable. There's no way you can really expect to regularly get Shurelya's rush finished by 15 minutes.
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On June 30 2012 00:06 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
40% lol
On June 30 2012 00:26 iLLmatiic wrote:
that would be a super op mastery
I put that number out there for discussion, but I don't think this would be as overpowered as you seem to think. Even if the AD carry is super pro and has 200 CS by 20 minutes, the support only gets the equivalent of 80 CS (and only if they're around the entire time). It's just enough to really open up support itemization.
It might be OP in the sense that no single mastery could possibly compare in terms of gold value, but in terms of actual functionality I think it's sound.
On June 30 2012 00:29 Sven Stryker wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 23:59 Seuss wrote:
The most obvious problem with this idea is that it makes support champions even more reliant upon their laning partners to be effective. Laning with someone who is bad at last-hitting will be even more rage-inducing than before. Similarly, losing bottom lane will now result in two horribly underfarmed champions rather than just one.
Still, I think all of that might be worth it if it meant supports could routinely shoot for larger items without needing 12 assists and a substantial lead to do it. Alternatively, your mastery idea would allow a dual lane where both players take the mastery to farm somewhat equally. Because no matter which player gets the last hit, they both still get some money. It'd put both players at 70% of solo lane farm. In either case, the team that takes your mastery is getting 140% of the money in the lane, while the team that fails to take it only gets 100%. I'd think an item would be a better place for it since the enemy could see you build it and respond accordingly. There are balance issues involved with changing how money is accrued.
The point of the concept, and its accessibility, is that supports will always take it. I don't see the point of putting it on an item, there's no counter-play if you know the enemy support is gaining gold off their carry's last hits. You could even argue this should be baseline functionality instead of a mastery.
Balance is obviously an issue, but right now I'm essentially attacking the same problem as TheYango from a different angle. Supports are extremely limited in their item choices, and either the items they're interested need to come down in cost or supports need to get more gold. There isn't an approach to this problem that won't upset game balance.
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Support items in general are obviously strong enough, since everyone is playing with a support...
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United States47024 Posts
Monte, the one thing I'd worry about with your idea is how it might make 5-man forcing down towers midgame way stronger than a more spread out approach of farming/split-pushing. The concern isn't going to be the laning scenario when 1 person is farming and 1 other person is getting "assists", but rather the scenario when you have 5 people together, and you have 4 peoples' worth of assists racking up.
On June 30 2012 01:50 SnetteL wrote:
Support items in general are obviously strong enough, since everyone is playing with a support...
And they buy the same shitty items every game.
It's not necessarily an issue of power more than the fact that it's shitty gameplay for support itemization to have so few variations compared to other roles.
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40% minion assist mastery would very simply make support poppy OP so for that reason I definitely would hate to see that
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On June 30 2012 01:50 TheYango wrote:
Monte, the one thing I'd worry about with your idea is how it might make 5-man forcing down towers midgame way stronger than a more spread out approach of farming/split-pushing. The concern isn't going to be the laning scenario when 1 person is farming and 1 other person is getting "assists", but rather the scenario when you have 5 people together, and you have 4 peoples' worth of assists racking up.
That's why the gold is split, just as with normal kills/assists (I did have this in my original bullets). If you have five people in one lane the extra four only get 10% each.
I'm actually much more concerned about the effect this might have on junglers and camping lanes. 40% of the value of two creep waves is ~74% as much gold as you'd get jungling during the same time period. Junglers sitting in bushes all day ala Garen is not the point of the idea, but could be the logical result if it isn't implemented carefully.
On June 30 2012 01:57 Shikyo wrote:
40% minion assist mastery would very simply make support poppy OP so for that reason I definitely would hate to see that
Or you could see that by making support Poppy OP she'd be inevitably nerfed. You should rejoice.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 30 2012 02:06 Seuss wrote:
I'm actually much more concerned about the effect this might have on junglers and camping lanes. 40% of the value of two creep waves is ~74% as much gold as you'd get jungling during the same time period. Junglers sitting in bushes all day ala Garen is not the point of the idea, but could be the logical result if it isn't implemented carefully.
Or just leech a big chunk of gold while you're clearing wraiths when your mid is clearing a big wave pushed to his tower. 
And yeah, that would probably be the bigger concern.
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On June 29 2012 23:59 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 18:50 Sponkz wrote:On June 29 2012 18:46 JackDino wrote:On June 29 2012 18:41 Sponkz wrote:On June 29 2012 18:20 spinesheath wrote:On June 29 2012 18:08 Sponkz wrote:On June 29 2012 16:21 spinesheath wrote:
People don't go DRings anymore because there is Shurelya's Reverie. No point in getting DRings when Shurelya's is that strong.
Plus Drings got nerfed. It's a no brainer right now. I'd guess if they were to remove gp/10 from the game (which i hope will happen at some point), drings could get popular again. I mean it's really "boring" to watch supports go double gp/10, junglers go double gp/10 and just get free gold. I still would go Reverie instead 100% of the time. It's not like the gold/10 component on Philo is a huge deal anyways. How are you gonna afford the components for reverie, if gp/10 is removed (both runes+masteries and in-game) without taking farm? This is really what makes this meta so god damn potent imo, because you don't have to give farm to your support when that person can get 15 gp/10 from philo, hog, runes and masteries along with the natural gp/10 the game gives you. How are you going to afford a second dring and wards/possible oracle if you don't have gp10? That's the thing. I said i would guess that drings could get popular again, but it really depends on how the fuck you're gonna make your 5th person get farm without harming your carries. Beats me. On June 29 2012 18:48 spinesheath wrote:
You are vastly overrating that gold/10.
It takes 27 minutes until HoG pays for itself. You can expect to get a HoG by the 10 minute mark. That thing's not gonna do ANYTHING to speed up your Reverie.
The gold/10 on Philo would get you a Reverie a couple of minutes earlier at best. It's not like Philo generates ALL the money for it. Not even close. Yeah that's true, but the way i see it at the moment, you're getting a philo because you want reverie. And that philo generates extra gold for you, which may not be much, but surely enough to give you a stronger impact in the game in terms of map control. A lot of this discussion would be moot if Riot simply added a utility mastery which gave "assist" gold to a support for each minion killed by a nearby ally. The concept in full: - A one point mastery in the Utility tree, replacing the mediocre Scout mastery. This puts it in easy reach for any support champions who need to go deep in other trees to function.
- When a nearby ally last hits minions (monsters excluded), a fractional "assist" bonus is granted to the support. My suggestion is 40% of the minion's normal value. More would put the support too close to jungle levels of farm.
- Like normal assists, this bonus is split between champions if there are multiple possessing the mastery, but never goes to the champion who delivers the kill.
I like this idea for its intuitiveness and relative simplicity. Much of the kill/assist code could probably be reused, making its implementation relatively easier than other idea. However, it's not without its drawbacks. The most obvious problem with this idea is that it makes support champions even more reliant upon their laning partners to be effective. Laning with someone who is bad at last-hitting will be even more rage-inducing than before. Similarly, losing bottom lane will now result in two horribly underfarmed champions rather than just one. Still, I think all of that might be worth it if it meant supports could routinely shoot for larger items without needing 12 assists and a substantial lead to do it.
That's actually not a terrible idea at all. Comparing a support, standing next to a person with roughly 200 CS will net you around 2500g making the support perfectly capable of reaching a mid-game at the same time as the rest of the team. Did you post this idea on the official forums or sumthin?
EDIT: Maybe if they made it a 21 point in utility as opposed to reduced summoner's CD?
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To be perfectly honest, I wish riot would experiment more on the PBE. They have to be trying some pretty crazy stuff internally from time to time-- why not use the PBE as a testing ground to see how well whatever new item/mechanic they're testing works in players' hands?
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It is a terrible idea.
They should add a mastery that makes people distribute farm such that key items are finished at key timings on the right champions. Champs who scale badly into lategame should pass on their farm to other champs as the game goes on.
There's still plenty of deep decision making possible in farming up a team as a whole. I'd prefer it if they don't water that down by giving people boatloads of free money for idling in the vicinity of a dying minion.
On June 30 2012 02:24 Eiii wrote:
To be perfectly honest, I wish riot would experiment more on the PBE. They have to be trying some pretty crazy stuff internally from time to time-- why not use the PBE as a testing ground to see how well whatever new item/mechanic they're testing works in players' hands?
Top players won't play significant amounts of games on the PBE.
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On June 30 2012 01:33 Capped wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 01:19 TheYango wrote:
The main issue with support itemization IMO is that Riot prices so many of the support items in the 2000-2500 gold range (Shurelya's, Aegis, Starks, Soul Shroud, etc.), but those are outside of the reliably buyable range for a support.
You want your "core" items to be items you can rely on having at around 15 minutes, once teamfights start happening. Most other roles have core items they expect to hit in a similar time-frame. At 15 minutes, there's pretty much no way you can expect a support to have the gold for any of those 2k+ support items--30 minutes is a more reasonable time for them. As such, they qualify more as "luxury" items, and you can only really expect to get 1 of them usually (2 if you're doing especially well).
"Core" support items need to be priced in the range of 800-1500 gold, to be attainable in time for the early teamfights. To be fair, the fact supports dont get there items till 30 minutes is really because of how their item builds are set in stone. Its philo's, boots, hog (or hog - boots) 2nd tier boots - then upgrading to shurlias or rushing something else (such as aegis) (Of course we're factoring in the cost of many wards here too, perhaps an oracles depending.) If supports would just take philo or hog + boots at start with the gp/5 runes and then rush to upgrade their gp5 (shurlias or locket) its possible for them to get it at around 13-15 minutes. Then to build their 2nd GP5 and go for starks / aegis with the monies bonus, later upgrading. Dunno really..im theory crafting but it got me thinking, as i main support (only low elo anyway..~1500ish) i'll try it out and see what happens. Thoughts? XD
It is possible if you get assists or tower kills and skip all warding except for the common starting wards of supports, otherwise the math doesn't allow for it:
+ Show Spoiler +
For those calculations i will ignore the no-income period at the start of the game:
Starting gold: 515
Gold from base income: 13/10
Gold from Gp10 runes: 5.25/10
Gold from Masteries: 2/10
Earliest time you can get Philosophers without any last hits or assists and starting with common Faerie Charm, 2 wars, 1 pink ward, 1 potion:
Income 20.25/10 = ~5:06
Earliest time you can get HoG after that
Income 25.25/10 = 5:26 later, i.e. ~10:30
Shurelyas cost after having Philosophers: 1400
Time to get Shurelyas:
Income of 30.25/10: ~7:42, i.e. ~18:15-18:30
At 18:30 minutes you can reliably get shurelyas if you don't buy boots or any wards and potions past the initial.
Dragon kill, assists and towerkills take around 60s away from that time. (150g/30.25*10 = 49.5s if it's after PS&HoG)
You really have to win your lane and have a jungler that kills the dragon constantly to manage 15 minute Shurelyas.
Personally i prefer to focus on wards and get Aegis before Shurelyas since with good ward coverage i find Shurelyas to be less useful while Aegis can change a fight... but then again, i'm a noob :p
EDIT: Forgot mastery gold. Fixed.
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On June 30 2012 02:24 Eiii wrote:
To be perfectly honest, I wish riot would experiment more on the PBE. They have to be trying some pretty crazy stuff internally from time to time-- why not use the PBE as a testing ground to see how well whatever new item/mechanic they're testing works in players' hands?
PBE is strictly for bug testing what is to be released. Experimental testing occurs on the internal servers. Having lots of random users does not necessarily lead to good feedback in a design sense, but it is good for stress testing and spotting random bugs.
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EPT
