EPT[Patch 1.0.0.141: Draven] General Discussion - Page 206
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xarchaosx
United States89 Posts
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
On June 29 2012 14:31 xarchaosx wrote: quick question does tristana counter corki in anyway. my friend is trying to argue that her jump cant be valkyried away from it sounds like you can easily get away from it with good reaction speed. am i wrong? You can definitely dodge Rocket Jump with a quick Valkyrie. I would think as well that Corki outbursts Tristana in lane at all points except maybe right at 6 before he's stocked up on rockets. I think Corki should generally win the lane pretty easily, with Tristana having the eventual advantage in scaling obviously. | ||
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Lorken
New Zealand804 Posts
On June 29 2012 14:35 Alzadar wrote: You can definitely dodge Rocket Jump with a quick Valkyrie. I would think as well that Corki outbursts Tristana in lane at all points except maybe right at 6 before he's stocked up on rockets. I think Corki should generally win the lane pretty easily, with Tristana having the eventual advantage in scaling obviously. AP tirst would probably rape corki though. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
burst character beat a squishy carry? naaaaaah. | ||
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tobi9999
United States1966 Posts
On June 29 2012 14:35 Alzadar wrote: You can definitely dodge Rocket Jump with a quick Valkyrie. I would think as well that Corki outbursts Tristana in lane at all points except maybe right at 6 before he's stocked up on rockets. I think Corki should generally win the lane pretty easily, with Tristana having the eventual advantage in scaling obviously. If trist has an aggressive support (alistar/taric), corki can't afford to harass Tristana very much, and can get wrecked really easily if he does something stupid. On the other hand, if trist has soraka with her, you might as well give up trying to win lane vs Corki. | ||
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
I don't see it, what's her game-plan? Is this midlane? How does Tristana deal with auto-Q-auto harass from Corki? How does she kill him later when he can dodge 1/3rd of her damage with quick reflexes? I feel like trades would go like: Corki goes in to harass with auto-Q, Tristana responds by Rocket Jumping, Corki dodges it with Valkyrie, he activates Gatling Gun and right clicks, Tristana is now forced to ult him away to escape or Flash or die. At most Corki takes damage from Explosive Shot and Buster Shot, whereas Tristana will eat every Corki spell (even Valkyrie since she is jumping directly on it) and several auto-attacks. Of course if the Corki is too slow and gets hit by Rocket Jump, things will be different. But it should be easily dodged seeing as how it's such a huge obvious animation and it's basically the only thing he needs to be watching for. | ||
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broz0rs
United States2294 Posts
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On June 29 2012 15:13 broz0rs wrote: question regarding support champs: when is it better to get GP5s as opposed to multiple d-rings? Hmm... good question I think we have never discussed this issue before. (Depends on who you ask.) | ||
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I_Love_Bacon
United States5765 Posts
On June 29 2012 15:13 broz0rs wrote: question regarding support champs: when is it better to get GP5s as opposed to multiple d-rings? ....Always? The only people I ever see get Drings as support is Lux, and there's a reason you don't see Lux support in high level play. I guess kill lanes you probably can as some support. There's just not enough gold to get reliable items if you don't get gp5 as support. It'll take you forever to get more than your starting items and 1-2 drings. That means fewer wards, later boots, etc etc. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On June 29 2012 14:29 Alzadar wrote: You aren't being very fair in your judgement here. Lux has many unique strengths, notably the massive range on all of her spells, a snare that hits two people, an AoE shield and huge nuke ultimate with a tiny cooldown. I mean, Lux can plausibly chunk two people from 1000 range (her full combo at level 18 is 1190 + 2.05AP, all multi-target and an easy hit after landing Q). You can't tell me she's completely useless. Eh, I just think if you want a long range mage, you can do much better than Lux. She's not useless, but there are just much better picks, and I honestly don't think her pros outweigh her cons in any consistent manner. She feels outclassed in nearly every way by people like Ziggs, Ahri, and Karthus. Not only that, but Lux tends to attract "those" types of players. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On June 29 2012 15:15 I_Love_Bacon wrote: ....Always? The only people I ever see get Drings as support is Lux, and there's a reason you don't see Lux support in high level play. I guess kill lanes you probably can as some support. There's just not enough gold to get reliable items if you don't get gp5 as support. It'll take you forever to get more than your starting items and 1-2 drings. That means fewer wards, later boots, etc etc. it used to be super popular (pre recent dorans nerf) to get 3 Drings on most supports. now... it's immensely less popular, but only a 60 hp loss still probably as effective, the key was knowing exactly how many wards you need each trip back and buying a dring if you had enough after that, this was also when supports were the only role buying oracles early, so they needed the extra life | ||
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tobi9999
United States1966 Posts
On June 29 2012 15:13 broz0rs wrote: question regarding support champs: when is it better to get GP5s as opposed to multiple d-rings? If you're continuously farming (which you shouldn't be, but in solo queue there are "circumstances") then get Drings so you can actually do stuff by yourself. If you're not, get Gp5. Build should just be boots, philo, hog entire game. If you're a good player you'll have the chance to buy aegis, zekes , shurelias etc. Since you won't have to rebuy oracles over and over. But for the most part, if you aren't experienced just keep it to oracles + wards. (PS, you can get items if your team is dominating in towers/dragons) Furthermore, even if the jungler gets oracles/wards, still get oracles/wards (unless this isn't solo queue). Seriously, if you want to have a higher chance of winning as support you have to be the one shutting down vision, as mr./mrs. random jungler in solo queue is probably not so good and you will never climb above this persons elo if you allow him to be the one clearing wards. | ||
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I_Love_Bacon
United States5765 Posts
On June 29 2012 15:22 PrinceXizor wrote: it used to be super popular (pre recent dorans nerf) to get 3 Drings on most supports. now... it's immensely less popular, but only a 60 hp loss still probably as effective, the key was knowing exactly how many wards you need each trip back and buying a dring if you had enough after that, this was also when supports were the only role buying oracles early, so they needed the extra life I don't see the usefulness of going drings. Acquiring a solid aura item or two while maintaing ward efficiency takes long enough w/ gp5 as it is. Without it, aren't you left with a support who can't do much of anything in the late-mid game? Blowing 950 gold, that will already take you a decent while to acquire given your lack of cs, on 2 items that probably wont have a big impact in team fights just seems strange to me. edit for further clarification: Gold will be scare as support unless you're just stomping. Spending gold on items that wont be upgraded to be useful just seems unbelievably sketch to me when you're already struggling for gold. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On June 29 2012 15:13 broz0rs wrote: question regarding support champs: when is it better to get GP5s as opposed to multiple d-rings? Oh gawd, this thing again With exception of very very few supports, you almost usually run the gp10 items. philostone is almost an always choice, it's just a solid item that supports need, the hp regen helps stay in lane after trades, and the mana regen allows for more spell usage, for more frequent trades/heals. Also it builds into one of the strongest items in the game, shurelya's reverie hog is another excellent choice, the increased health is excellent for surviving trades early on. also if you get filthy rich, you can afford the randuins later on, if you don't plan on getting aegis. Kage's lucky pick, is a more controversial one. I run it pretty often, I find myself usually being in games for around ~40minutes, and i get all 3 gp10 items before the 20min mark, so they all payoff in the long run. Kage's now turns into morello/dfg. Morello is probably the only one worth getting on support, but it's still pretty mediocre. avarice blades just blows. Also I run gp10 runes (yellows' and quints). 3 gp10 + runes = never out of money. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11823 Posts
I am pretty sure that there must be situations where not buying gp10 on a support is the better idea, especially in shorter games or when you can somehow translate that earlier powerspike into some sort of advantage, but i doubt that i could identify such a situation in game. In those shorter games you also won't have problems with your slot usage, which counteracts the main disadvantage of dorans. The main question is, i suppose, how much you are able to exploit an advantage from that earlier power, and i guess that depends on how aggressive your lane is in general. | ||
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Kaldr
Australia67 Posts
On June 29 2012 15:13 broz0rs wrote: question regarding support champs: when is it better to get GP5s as opposed to multiple d-rings? I could see it working on Janna or Nidalee where you would aim to out harass and trade the enemy duo so they are denied of gold and exp. Even in this case, I think building GP5s instead are just as good. On June 29 2012 15:38 wei2coolman wrote: Also I run gp10 runes (yellows' and quints). 3 gp10 + runes = never out of money. I guess you run armor reds then? I was thinking about swapping my armor yellows for gp10 yellows but I'm worried the difference in armor would cause me to die to stuff like graves or draven. | ||
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
On June 29 2012 15:16 Requizen wrote: Eh, I just think if you want a long range mage, you can do much better than Lux. She's not useless, but there are just much better picks, and I honestly don't think her pros outweigh her cons in any consistent manner. She feels outclassed in nearly every way by people like Ziggs, Ahri, and Karthus. Not only that, but Lux tends to attract "those" types of players. I'm kind of confused about you mentioning Karthus, Lux and Karthus are pretty much polar opposites as far as AP carries go, they're nearly incomparable. Karthus is a lowish-range suicide mage and no hard CC, with a weak lane phase but a monstrous late-game: Lux is the opposite on every count. Ahri is also curious to bring up. She's probably "better" than Lux, but not in many measurable ways. Ahri is much more team-independent than Lux and does significantly more single-target damage, but Lux has huge team utility and her AoE is more likely to hit multiple targets. Ziggs however, is a very good champion to compare with Lux. Both long range with good zone control, excellent laners with subpar damage lategame. Their Es and Rs are both very similar to each other. I feel like Lux is actually better though: unlike Ziggs she has real CC, and can detonate her slow field for immediate damage if she wishes, versus Ziggs' minefield which is really just an obstacle, not a real damage source. Lux's ultimate is almost certainly better than Ziggs' since having less than half the CD makes it plausible to land two in a fight. They are both very underplayed champions, and I think the reason isn't an inherent weakness in the champions, but rather the fact that AP Kog'Maw fills the role of huge range poke so much better than anyone else that it's not even worth playing the alternatives. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On June 29 2012 15:28 I_Love_Bacon wrote: I don't see the usefulness of going drings. Acquiring a solid aura item or two while maintaing ward efficiency takes long enough w/ gp5 as it is. Without it, aren't you left with a support who can't do much of anything in the late-mid game? Blowing 950 gold, that will already take you a decent while to acquire given your lack of cs, on 2 items that probably wont have a big impact in team fights just seems strange to me. edit for further clarification: Gold will be scare as support unless you're just stomping. Spending gold on items that wont be upgraded to be useful just seems unbelievably sketch to me when you're already struggling for gold. i dunno man only talking about the pro metagame, they used to get dring x3 pretty consistently, not advocating it, but they used to. | ||
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I_Love_Bacon
United States5765 Posts
On June 29 2012 16:00 PrinceXizor wrote: i dunno man only talking about the pro metagame, they used to get dring x3 pretty consistently, not advocating it, but they used to. Not to sound like a dick, but so? Things change; ideas adapt and evolve. Granted, one could argue they can devolve too, but unless somebody presents a compelling argument to actually get drings, simply telling me it used to get done doesn't change anything. There might be some weird combos and situations where you want to abuse an early power curve in lane over your opponents that maybe the drings can help exploit, but I'd have to actually think about which lane pairs that would really come into play for.... maybe some weird taric/ez combo where ez rushes to sheen or something. It's probably awful, but maybe? | ||
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