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On June 26 2012 03:32 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 03:26 Sufficiency wrote:On June 26 2012 03:24 jcarlsoniv wrote:On June 26 2012 03:18 Sufficiency wrote:
I think mana is really a problem with some of the older champions. Cassiopeia and Swain come to mind. Some of the newer APs, such as Ahri and Viktor, don't really have that much mana issue. Viktor absolutely has early mana problems. Anyone who can push hard against him before first back can make him struggle. Try spamming some Twin Fang and Ravens then play Viktor again. Cass's and Swain's mana problems are on an entirely different level. You are talking to someone who has mained both Cass and Swain. I am no stranger to their mana costs. I also know the mana restrictions of most mages. Using abilities must have a purpose. Yes, they have mana restrictions. This isn't for no reason though. Do you really want Cass to have lower mana costs so she can spam her skills MORE than she already can?! Should Swain be able to stay in Raven form for endless time? No. Mana costs are pretty balanced in mid.
no we don't want them to stay indefinitely. more the opposite, we want all mids to have a lot more mana costs. so they have to manage their mana throughout the game, like swain/cass do to some extent.
But yeah, overall the numerous flaws with LoL have very difficult solutions to them and will likely not happen.
They need a huge rebalance patch with items and mana costs, but it'll likely not happen. and if it does, no one will be able to play for a month.
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United States47024 Posts
I agree with Soniv, mana costs in mid are pretty reasonable. It's blue buff that's been the perennial problem in handling AP carry mana management (and trivializing it), but I'm pretty satisfied that Riot has acknowledged that it's an issue and has been trying to carefully tweak it (the nerfs + carefully tuning itemization for champions that really need it badly). There are a few AP carries that could definitely have a few mana cost nerfs sent their way, but those are individual issues and not systemic ones.
It's every other role that mana becomes too trivialized for.
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I kinda wish LoL was moddable. it'd be fun to mess around with the item stats and try to find a good balancing point.
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On June 26 2012 03:37 TheYango wrote:
I agree with Soniv, mana costs in mid are pretty reasonable. It's blue buff that's been the perennial problem in handling AP carry mana management (and trivializing it), but I'm pretty satisfied that Riot has acknowledged that it's an issue and has been trying to carefully tweak it (the nerfs + carefully tuning itemization for champions that really need it badly). There are a few AP carries that could definitely have a few mana cost nerfs sent their way, but those are individual issues and not systemic ones.
It's every other role that mana becomes too trivialized for.
They definitely took a step in the right direction with the blue buff nerf to tackle mid mana sustain. It's still somewhat trivial, but mids certainly cannot spam to the same extent as they used to. It is actually possible to run out of mana with blue assuming you aren't building other mana regen as well.
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On June 26 2012 03:18 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 02:53 UniversalSnip wrote:
not really interested in arguing with hyperbole it's not hyperbole. there is no legitimate reason to run a real brusier top lane anymore. their itemization options suck. you simply have to run someone who can run FH/Omen core, dedicated DPS items, or AP items top nowadays. there's no reason to play someone who runs bruiser style midgame items anymore.
Why were we seeing shit like irelia, renek, lee sin, warwick, singed, nidalee and shen top at dreamhack then? Are they just behind the curve? I guess it's a possibility, but with all due respect to the cranky uncle of the lol forums, I see no reason you would be more knowledgeable than the people playing at dreamhack. And you really think saying that I consider the game perfect / acting as if infinity edge into double phantom dancer has any relevance to anything is not hyperbole?
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i think something like sc2's mapmaker would be really cool for stuff like dota2/lol/etc
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On June 25 2012 22:50 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
Say there was an AP item priced at around the price of deathcap that gave a moderate amount of AP + an active that refreshed all of the caster's cooldowns (with a cool of around 3-4min)
How do you guys thing such an item would influence the lategame power of burst casters vs more sustained dps casters and the power of casters in general?
The one crazy thing that I can think of is the awesomeness of TWO morde ghosts running around. Also if leblanc could do a QRR combo with the 2nd R increasing the first R's damage by 40% O.O
Edit: made some changes to the post to make my question more clear
Double Veigar ult all the way.
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On June 26 2012 03:37 TheYango wrote:
I agree with Soniv, mana costs in mid are pretty reasonable. It's blue buff that's been the perennial problem in handling AP carry mana management (and trivializing it), but I'm pretty satisfied that Riot has acknowledged that it's an issue and has been trying to carefully tweak it (the nerfs + carefully tuning itemization for champions that really need it badly). There are a few AP carries that could definitely have a few mana cost nerfs sent their way, but those are individual issues and not systemic ones.
It's every other role that mana becomes too trivialized for.
if they implement your %mana regen plan, then the problem then becomes what to do with manaless champs when the mana-using champs have to seriously start conserving mana vs champs like vlad/riven/morde/rumble, and all the other manaless champs who are already borderline bullshit as it is.
I have to say, I do agree with the principle of making mana more valuable for roles that are not AP, but there are enough mana-less champs that it could be a problem implementing it.
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On June 26 2012 03:18 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 02:53 UniversalSnip wrote:
not really interested in arguing with hyperbole it's not hyperbole. there is no legitimate reason to run a real brusier top lane anymore. their itemization options suck. you simply have to run someone who can run FH/Omen core, dedicated DPS items, or AP items top nowadays. there's no reason to play someone who runs bruiser style midgame items anymore.
I'm not sure I understand the distinction between "a real bruiser" and someone who has FH/Omen as their core. Surely champions like Warwick, Nidalee, Nasus or whatnot are "real bruisers"?
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On June 26 2012 03:54 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 03:18 Mogwai wrote:On June 26 2012 02:53 UniversalSnip wrote:
not really interested in arguing with hyperbole it's not hyperbole. there is no legitimate reason to run a real brusier top lane anymore. their itemization options suck. you simply have to run someone who can run FH/Omen core, dedicated DPS items, or AP items top nowadays. there's no reason to play someone who runs bruiser style midgame items anymore. I'm not sure I understand the distinction between "a real bruiser" and someone who has FH/Omen as their core. Surely champions like Warwick, Nidalee, Nasus or whatnot are "real bruisers"?
Real bruisers are champs that don't buy items(play naked) and punch you with their fists and leave bruises.
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On June 26 2012 03:43 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 03:18 Mogwai wrote:On June 26 2012 02:53 UniversalSnip wrote:
not really interested in arguing with hyperbole it's not hyperbole. there is no legitimate reason to run a real brusier top lane anymore. their itemization options suck. you simply have to run someone who can run FH/Omen core, dedicated DPS items, or AP items top nowadays. there's no reason to play someone who runs bruiser style midgame items anymore. Why were we seeing shit like irelia, renek, lee sin, warwick, singed, nidalee and shen top at dreamhack then? Are they just behind the curve? I guess it's a possibility, but with all due respect to the cranky uncle of the lol forums, I see no reason you would be more knowledgeable than the people playing at dreamhack. And you really think saying that I consider the game perfect / acting as if infinity edge into double phantom dancer has any relevance to anything is not hyperbole?
IE and PD are way too strong. you're better off running more people who can exploit it, which is most of why Kayle is so strong at top lane. idk about dreamhack because I didn't watch it, all I know is that playing as a brusier feels like shit right now and I feel completely validated in this opinion by how TSM crushed everyone at MLG. All your items feel weak and while you sit at the shop, contemplating which mediocre item you're going to spend that precious 2000 gold on before having to completely tank out, ranged ADs are just herp derping and buying IE and PD every fucking game and trucking you. I guess what I'm saying is that I've decided that I'm now just going to play Caitlyn top because I'm tired of having to buy from a mediocre item pool.
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Draven is actually pretty busted atm if you have the mechanics to maintain his spinning axes and catch them. Koreans been experimenting a lot with him top. Sort of like release Vayne where you can go bruiser and still truck people too. @_@
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this is completely unrelated but I feel like people dont but BT enough as AD vs people who dive you every fight or deal damage that you cant avoid
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On June 26 2012 03:54 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 03:18 Mogwai wrote:On June 26 2012 02:53 UniversalSnip wrote:
not really interested in arguing with hyperbole it's not hyperbole. there is no legitimate reason to run a real brusier top lane anymore. their itemization options suck. you simply have to run someone who can run FH/Omen core, dedicated DPS items, or AP items top nowadays. there's no reason to play someone who runs bruiser style midgame items anymore. I'm not sure I understand the distinction between "a real bruiser" and someone who has FH/Omen as their core. Surely champions like Warwick, Nidalee, Nasus or whatnot are "real bruisers"?
I'm assuming he means champions with AD scaling that want to build a mix of defensive and offensive items. Champions like Wukong, Garen, Pantheon, Darius, Renekton, and Tiger Udyr.
The problem with these champions is that most big items are more gold efficient than small items, and the big items have mostly been designed with either pure tanks or AD carrys in mind. This means that AD bruisers have to make a choice between building a tank or a damage item as their first item, because building a mix of both is not gold efficient. Usually bruisers build a tank item first and use a bunch of Dorans to keep their damage respectable. This doesn't scale well at all into the late game, particularly since defensive items usually only protect from 1 type of damage, meaning that bruisers are going to need a 2nd defensive item pretty quickly.
Riot's addition of MoM was a start, but there needs to be more items that combine defensive and tank stats. The nerf to Atma's was completely unneeded, and buffing it back to 2% would make a big difference to champions like Wukong, Garen, and Gangplank who stacked health and relied on the damage from Atma's to give them any late game scaling.
One thing I don't understand is why Riot doesn't implement more items like Tiamat and Ghostblade which are stronger on melee champions than ranged. If Bloodthirster gave 15% lifesteal and 90 damage at full stacks on AD carrys and 25% life steal and 120 damage at full stacks on melee champions, bruisers might not fall off so hard.
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
On June 26 2012 04:00 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 03:43 UniversalSnip wrote:On June 26 2012 03:18 Mogwai wrote:On June 26 2012 02:53 UniversalSnip wrote:
not really interested in arguing with hyperbole it's not hyperbole. there is no legitimate reason to run a real brusier top lane anymore. their itemization options suck. you simply have to run someone who can run FH/Omen core, dedicated DPS items, or AP items top nowadays. there's no reason to play someone who runs bruiser style midgame items anymore. Why were we seeing shit like irelia, renek, lee sin, warwick, singed, nidalee and shen top at dreamhack then? Are they just behind the curve? I guess it's a possibility, but with all due respect to the cranky uncle of the lol forums, I see no reason you would be more knowledgeable than the people playing at dreamhack. And you really think saying that I consider the game perfect / acting as if infinity edge into double phantom dancer has any relevance to anything is not hyperbole? IE and PD are way too strong. you're better off running more people who can exploit it, which is most of why Kayle is so strong at top lane. idk about dreamhack because I didn't watch it, all I know is that playing as a brusier feels like shit right now and I feel completely validated in this opinion by how TSM crushed everyone at MLG. All your items feel weak and while you sit at the shop, contemplating which mediocre item you're going to spend that precious 2000 gold on before having to completely tank out, ranged ADs are just herp derping and buying IE and PD every fucking game and trucking you. I guess what I'm saying is that I've decided that I'm now just going to play Caitlyn top because I'm tired of having to buy from a mediocre item pool.
This. I really dislike how linear and boring ranged AD item selections are. There are so many other DPS options and combinations that could work depending on the situation, but in the end IE + PD (and BT) trumps almost all of them. The only reason AD's wouldn't get IE+PD is if the early game farm sucked, and even then they just go zeal + BT instead, while eventually working their way up to the PD + IE + BT combo.
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I was going to write up a long thing, but I'm not nearly good enough at this game to give any sort of logical opinion. I will say that I despise teams of all tanks/bruisers with an AD carry (especially Kog/Vayne), since it feels just unwinnable at my level if they have half a brain.
For example, I had a game a few days ago where the enemy team was Hec jungle, Malph top, Ali support, Karth mid, Vayne carry. Malph ult + Ali pulv + Karth ult + Hec ult + Vayne being anywhere nearby was an instant loss for anyone involved. Focusing anyone but Vayne was useless since they'd take forever to kill and she'd just Tumble in and waste you anyway, and trying to reach her through dem slows and knockups/backs was impossible. Fun times, we should have just tried to shut them down before they got to that point.
Edit: as far as "bruiser items" go, I think they should think about adding the Phage + BFS item from Dominion into SR, giving an option for AD scalers that isn't mostly tank (FH) or wasting stats and expensive (TF). Phage is a nice early game item that really limits you later on if you want to actually have damage and don't use TF, I think.
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there has been fantastic discussion the last few pages I think.
mogwai you should make your next blog about the metashift away from brusier tops and the influence of kayle on the values of champs instead of sustain champs like cho and irelia.
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
On June 26 2012 03:44 barbsq wrote:
i think something like sc2's mapmaker would be really cool for stuff like dota2/lol/etc
The other day my friends and I were discussing a map where everyone would be Ashe, and the only spell would be her arrow on a 5 sec CD, everyone dies in 1 hit.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 26 2012 03:44 barbsq wrote:
i think something like sc2's mapmaker would be really cool for stuff like dota2/lol/etc
Two words:
Pudge Wars
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Riot's addition of MoM was a start, but there needs to be more items that combine defensive and tank stats. The nerf to Atma's was completely unneeded, and buffing it back to 2% would make a big difference to champions like Wukong, Garen, and Gangplank who stacked health and relied on the damage from Atma's to give them any late game scaling.
I find this kind of funny because that's when I feel like when I'm sitting in the DotA item store. So many offensive items which give defensive stats there. Not sure if that is the direction Riot wants to go.
On June 26 2012 02:45 spinesheath wrote:
Gosh. Spells are DIFFERENT in those two games. Neither of the systems is "superior". If you argue against that you make a fool of yourself.
The spell system has no significant impact on the aggressiveness of these games. There are other much bigger factors, for example the strength of initiations (weak in LoL) and map control (strong in LoL).
Mhmm.. that whole issue is tricky. From my perspective it usually makes sense to look at what is behind certain mechanics in a specific game. That's when you can draw real parallels and start looking for answers in another game.
Some straight up examples:
In DotA, casters don't scale.
The result of this is that some casters are incredibly strong early game but become more and more useless the longer the game goes on. Autoattackers on the other hand (especially Agil carries) are rather weak in the beginning and grow stronger with more items.
This isn't about "Casters dont scale" or "right click heroes op lategame", all this is about is individual hero scaling. The plain fact that some heroes are strong early and some are strong late creates diversity, interesting strategies and as a result of that more interesting games. You don't need to remove AP scaling to achieve that, you can just tweak ratios of certain champions. Give Taric stun more damage, no AP scaling. Give Soraka silence more damage, no AP scaling. Stuff like that.
The big problem I see here is that those "early game champs" go 5-0 in lane, someone posts about it on the forums and it then gets nerfed. It's fine if someone goes 5-0 in lane, has twice your farm but scales only half as strong as you do. How to exactly achieve that is up to Riot, but the whole "We have to smooth out everyones power curve" is just plain stupid when you want more interesting games.
DotA 2 games are more aggressive.
It is quite normal to see lots of early ganks, narrow escapes and in general a more aggressive early game compared to LoL. To answer why it is that way you have to look at multiple factors, one being mapcontrol (general map layout & ward coverage), individual scaling (you don't want those who scale better than you to get there easily, see above) and incentives by design. What I mean by the latter is that DotA offers you the possibility to gain edges early on which involve the risk of fights.
A LoL example would be top and midlane converging to gank the enemy jungle at red buff (yeah, right..) or contesting the second blue buff (~7:20). Contesting blue means you have to go far out of your normal way, possibly lose a multiple creepwaves and it's likely that you'll get spotted by wards anyway.
DotA on the other hand does offer small things which are worth fighting for: Runes at 2,4,6 (etc.) minutes offer an incentive for lanes to leave and maybe even start short fights about it. The short lanes (for those who don't know) have the possibility to pull creeps into their own lane and make them fight your own creeps which will deny gold/xp to the enemy if they don't do anything about it.
The counterplay to this one is that the enemy team has to ward that creepcamp so it doesn't respawn. You could even ward multiple camps to deny the enemy jungler (if they run one) farm. =P
Again the result are small skirmishes. These things start after the first minute and continue for the entire game (even though they get less valuable in the long run from time to time). Those small things create possible decisions and, in general, more variables that you have to account for.
What LoL lacks to a great extent are those small variables and incentives. There is simply no reason to fight for anything outside of your lane besides blue buff (rarely red), dragon and baron. In the case of buffs and dragon they are incredibly risky if you haven't already established map presence in that area by ganking and killing people.
Now, the REAL question is how to add those things without fucking over the general design of League. What you could try is basically anything that offers a small advantage when you go for it but won't fuck you over completely if you don't go for it.
Some random examples which I could see working (pure random brainfartstorm):
PS: This is not the important part of this post. =P
-Change buff/creep timers. Make buffs last shorter/weaker, make them spawn more often. Instead of making creeps spawn time x after being killed, make them spawn at fixed intervalls (this would allow for easier counterplays).
-Add small buffs in the river, I'm thinking a buff that increases movespeed, a buff that gives you bonus lifesteal/spellvamp, stuff like that.
-Restrict wards. Change the way their vision works (if it's in a brush, it can only see the inside, if it's outside, it can only see the outside).
Edit: FML LAST POST ON THE PAGE AGAIN T_T ... please no ignore. =(
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EPT
