EPT[Patch 1.0.0.141: Draven] General Discussion - Page 169
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
The spell system has no significant impact on the aggressiveness of these games. There are other much bigger factors, for example the strength of initiations (weak in LoL) and map control (strong in LoL). | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On June 26 2012 02:45 UniversalSnip wrote: i can't see how ap leads to standoffish play but ok. As far as tankiness and sustain ive been whining about that since before this subforum existed but i think they've pretty much gotten it where it needs to be despite craton battling them every step of the way (lol). I think maybe every single tank item has been nerfed repeatedly, every item that makes squishies durable for free has been substantially changed (compare old dblade to current one), potions are no longer bullshit, there is more benefit to offense since flash no longer defuses every kill attempt, and sustain has gotten kicked in the nuts. It was really easy to be ahead of the curve on all these problems because they were obvious. At this point i feel like the problems the game has are non-obvious, and im pretty happy about it. Now just remove yorick plz yea, totally. bruisers are utter shit right now, so the game's perfect. fuck fighters, let's all build IE PD PD, best game. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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Dalguno
United States2446 Posts
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dnastyx
United States2707 Posts
On June 26 2012 02:45 UniversalSnip wrote: At this point i feel like the problems the game has are non-obvious lol sure | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On June 26 2012 02:36 PrinceXizor wrote: I dunno if you take out scaling from LoL then you realize there is no need for Mres items to be so common and stackable, no reason for so much HP to exist in items, no need for Spell Pen, no need for such dedicated sustain supports. While the rest of this discussion would take a page to answer, and would lead to a huge shitshow, I would like to point out that you're hugely misattributing blame here. Sustain supports aren't necessary in LoL because the mechanics make sustain too important--on the contrary, it's that in DotA the mechanics absolutely trivialize sustain. You don't need supports to provide sustain in DotA because of how itemization trivializes sustain issues in general: - The courier allows you to send consumables to any lane, and in tandem with bottle refilling makes it so that steady harassment "forcing someone back" only occurs in super low-level games without a courier. Aside from that, it's a simple 10-15s courier trip from fountain before someone's used a Salve/refilled their Bottle and are back at full. - Mekansm, Urn, and Arcane Boots are absolutely busted items for mid- and lategame push sustain. In addition to the Mek heal, Mek also provides a steady HP regen aura for your entire team. Urn, on a support who's stocked charges off of fights/ganks also provides a steady supply of free salves. With Arcanes, your entire team literally cannot run out of mana. On June 26 2012 02:45 UniversalSnip wrote: At this point i feel like the problems the game has are non-obvious, and im pretty happy about it. I think the problems the game has are obvious. It's the fixes that are non-obvious because most of the obvious fixes entail changes that would be considered bigger problems because they involve changes that go against aspects of Riot's design philosophy. | ||
Alaric
France45622 Posts
>.< | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On June 26 2012 03:00 Alaric wrote: 'k, add Yorrick's ghouls to the list of stuff that gets so close to Nautilus they trigger his Dredge Line even when they're behind you. That stuff is so fucking bullshit, on top of being damn frustrating since "hey, you know your escape spell? Well it doesn't work, it acts as a 1s root on yourself now". >.< I might feel some sympathy if I didn't hate Naut with every fiber of my being <3 | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On June 26 2012 03:00 TheYango wrote: While the rest of this discussion would take a page to answer, and would lead to a huge shitshow, I would like to point out that you're hugely misattributing blame here. Sustain supports aren't necessary in LoL because the mechanics make sustain too important--on the contrary, it's that in DotA the mechanics absolutely trivialize sustain. You don't need supports to provide sustain in DotA because of how itemization trivializes sustain issues in general: - The courier allows you to send consumables to any lane, and in tandem with bottle refilling makes it so that steady harassment "forcing someone back" only occurs in super low-level games without a courier. Aside from that, it's a simple 10-15s courier trip from fountain before someone's used a Salve/refilled their Bottle and are back at full. - Mekansm, Urn, and Arcane Boots are absolutely busted items for mid- and lategame push sustain. In addition to the Mek heal, Mek also provides a steady HP regen aura for your entire team. Urn, on a support who's stocked charges off of fights/ganks also provides a steady supply of free salves. With Arcanes, your entire team literally cannot run out of mana. I think the problems the game has are obvious. It's the fixes that are non-obvious because most of the obvious fixes entail changes that would be considered bigger problems because they involve changes that go against aspects of Riot's design philosophy. it's not really clear... By obvious i meant both obviously perceptible and obviously fixable. Maybe i shoulda called them trivially challenging or something. System wide improvements to the game from here on out are gonna be a lot more complicated and unpredictable from here on out, i believe. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
A possible fix to this would be to change mana regen to provide not a flat regen amount, but a % of base regen. The problem with flat regen is that because non-APs inherently have smaller mana costs, flat regen is inherently a more powerful stat for them. This is partially remedied by making the lion's share of regen come on AP items, but there are still items like Chalice that provide an absolutely stupid amount of regen for non-APs. Making mana regen items provide regen in % of base regen means you can fine-tune the value of those items for APs vs. non-APs more easily because APs typically have much higher base regen. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On June 26 2012 02:53 UniversalSnip wrote: not really interested in arguing with hyperbole it's not hyperbole. there is no legitimate reason to run a real brusier top lane anymore. their itemization options suck. you simply have to run someone who can run FH/Omen core, dedicated DPS items, or AP items top nowadays. there's no reason to play someone who runs bruiser style midgame items anymore. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On June 26 2012 03:18 Sufficiency wrote: I think mana is really a problem with some of the older champions. Cassiopeia and Swain come to mind. Some of the newer APs, such as Ahri and Viktor, don't really have that much mana issue. Viktor absolutely has early mana problems. Anyone who can push hard against him before first back can make him struggle. And Swain has a passive that gives him mana back. Cass's passive reduces her mana costs... You probably just need to learn to be smarter with your mana. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On June 26 2012 03:24 jcarlsoniv wrote: Viktor absolutely has early mana problems. Anyone who can push hard against him before first back can make him struggle. Try spamming some Twin Fang and Ravens then play Viktor again. Cass's and Swain's mana problems are on an entirely different level. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
And honestly, mana should be a stat that should need to be managed throughout all stages of the game. I consider it a design problem that 90% of the champions in the game can forget about it past laning. If anything, it's Cass and Swain that are well-designed in requiring skillful management of their passives, and Ahri that's problematic with her mana costs being too low. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On June 26 2012 03:24 jcarlsoniv wrote: Viktor absolutely has early mana problems. Anyone who can push hard against him before first back can make him struggle. And Swain has a passive that gives him mana back. Cass's passive reduces her mana costs... You probably just need to learn to be smarter with your mana. we were acknowledging that all characters have early game mana problems. but almost 0 mana issues late. barring a few characters. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On June 26 2012 03:26 Sufficiency wrote: Try spamming some Twin Fang and Ravens then play Viktor again. Cass's and Swain's mana problems are on an entirely different level. You are talking to someone who has mained both Cass and Swain. I am no stranger to their mana costs. I also know the mana restrictions of most mages. Using abilities must have a purpose. Yes, they have mana restrictions. This isn't for no reason though. Do you really want Cass to have lower mana costs so she can spam her skills MORE than she already can?! Should Swain be able to stay in Raven form for endless time? No. Mana costs are pretty balanced in mid. On June 26 2012 03:30 PrinceXizor wrote: we were acknowledging that all characters have early game mana problems. but almost 0 mana issues late. barring a few characters. My mistake, I missed Yango's post. I still think the New Mage vs. Old Mage mana costs is a needless argument. There are plenty of counter arguments for both sides. | ||
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