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On July 31 2012 02:16 Sponkz wrote:
I think the real issue with cait is kinda the same as trist. Your spells are really good in lane, but when you build towards IE you NEED attack speed to really get from the "i use both auto attacks and spells to deal damage" to "i auto attack you and you die". This is why ezreal and corki is so good mid-game imo, because their spells make sense to use. It just feels akward using caitlyns Q in team fights mid-game.
Cailyn's Q is only a little slower than an additional autoattack with zerks in the midgame now. It's pretty well worth casting until you get your PD if you hit one or more targets with it. The way I see doublelift use caitlyn, he either casts it right at the beginning when you can't autoattack since you're not in range anyways and people are still gap closing or saves it for when he has to cast E and does the E>Q combo since you aren't going to be autoattacking during your E anyways.
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On July 31 2012 04:02 Lmui wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 02:16 Sponkz wrote:
I think the real issue with cait is kinda the same as trist. Your spells are really good in lane, but when you build towards IE you NEED attack speed to really get from the "i use both auto attacks and spells to deal damage" to "i auto attack you and you die". This is why ezreal and corki is so good mid-game imo, because their spells make sense to use. It just feels akward using caitlyns Q in team fights mid-game. Cailyn's Q is only a little slower than an additional autoattack with zerks in the midgame now. It's pretty well worth casting until you get your PD if you hit one or more targets with it. The way I see doublelift use caitlyn, he either casts it right at the beginning when you can't autoattack since you're not in range anyways and people are still gap closing or saves it for when he has to cast E and does the E>Q combo since you aren't going to be autoattacking during your E anyways.
I think her Q could use a buff. Considering how many instant skillshots around there are from other ADs around that power level (Graves Buckshot, Sivir Boomerang, Varus uncharged Arrow, Ezreal Q, Urgot Acid Hunter), it just seems underwhelming in comparison. Which would be fine if her range still made her godmode, but it rather doesn't.
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On July 30 2012 23:20 Requizen wrote:
Her late game is good if you have a decent CC/peeler like Ali, Skar, Leona, etc, but in that case, they'd be better peeling for Kog or something. She has her strengths, sure, but she just lacks superpower that other carries bring.
On July 31 2012 02:04 Sufficiency wrote:
The problem with Caitlyn in late game is that her steroid is not so great. Compared to Corki, Caitlyn's passive does not work on her crits... otherwise it's almost the same passive. However Corki has a much better gap closer and poke than Caitlyn's.
Of course, If you need a glass cannon that 3 shots squishies lategame and shits steroids, Caitlyn is obviously not the AD you're looking for, I'll give you that.
But both your arguments are based on the assumption that the team comp in your scenario needs the AD for damage. It's obvious that Kog and Corki can be dealing more lategame damage, but that's not the point of Caitlyn. You have done something seriously wrong during picks/bans if you complain about your team's missing lategame damage but picked Caitlyn as an AD.
That's like saying "omg Ashe so weak lategame damage no steroid she's too weak". Just like Caitlyn, you don't pick Ashe for her pure DPS output but rather for her utility and #1 initiation.
Ridicoulus lane domination, traps and constant 650 range are the signature characteristics of Cait. If you can make good use of her laning, tower sieging and nice kiting ability and have another main DPS source in your team (some super endgame carry like Vlad / Jax / Karthus etc.) she will get the sustained DPS job done, too, because then there is no reason to complain about your team's lategame DPS.
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She doesn't dominate lane as hard anymore, though. I couldn't really tell you when it switched (bot never really was my area of expertise, and I'm not that great anyway), but nowadays it's less and less likely to see her just win lane. Even with her range advantage, people like Graves/Ezreal or certain supports make her go even or can even crush her easily with the right setup.
She's one of the best laners for an AD, but she's not the end-all-be-all lane queen like she used to be, and the whole "win lane win game" mentality is somewhat shifting in bot lane as it is.
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The issue there though is that in solo queue you're rarely going to have a team to coordinate early pushes and base their picks around you wanting to play Caitlyn when you could just as easily play any of the AD carries that don't require a team to plan around your pick. Even in arranged 5s Caitlyn's strengths are rarely utilized. The only team that runs her with any amount of regularity is CLGna and their track record with Caitlyn is not entirely stellar.
I don't think she's necessarily bad but she's certainly behind most of the other AD carries in this game. That's not necessarily wrong either, it's probably fine for LoL to have niche champions like Cait. I just mean that if I wanted to have a safe laner I'd rather pick Ezreal, if I wanted to harass and zone my opponent I'd rather have Urgot, and if I wanted to siege towers I'd probably rather play Kog'Maw because while he isn't quite as good as Caitlyn at sieging I think his damage output makes up for it.
Sure, if you can get your team to base their picks around you and then siege earlier and thus essentially base their entire game plan around you, Caitlyn can be pretty good. But that's a huge stretch in solo queue and it's a pretty huge stretch in arranged 5s too. Why play an AD carry that requires such a big investment when I could just play practically any other AD carry and then my team can play standard?
edit:
Ezreal and Kog were the de facto anti-Caitlyn picks back when she was considered #1 AD carry due to their relative safety against her. What hurt her were some slight nerfs and the addition of Graves along with Urgot becoming popular. No reason to run Caitlyn for lane domination when Urgot is definitely better than her at it and Graves is arguably better than her at it.
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Hey guys good Cait discussion. Honestly she has grown ALOT on me, and i've really learned to abuse her zoning / harass potential in poke comps. Also her slipperiness in certain teamfights rivals even ezreal with the right team comp. Her E not only gives distance, but slows, and agravates bruisers to no end. Her R is more often used to maintain enemy LOW HP at towers while you are sieging than to secure kills in poke comp. Although at the end of certain fights it comes up and you can maybe clean up a kill. With Cait its all about lane dominance, lane safety, mid game pushing, and then late game sustain dps / zoning / survival.
Also I just added a Cait Traps picture section, any comments or improvements are appreciated. Im gonna add a section on where Graves can dash, and maybe where Tristana / Corki can jump / fly over. And how to address how buggy Trist's jump can be. I want to make a detailed section on match ups, but the more I think about it, the more daunting and rediculous it will be to actually do lol, so gimme more time on that....
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If anyone doubted Caitlyn's power and utility, you should have seen TL B's games tonight. Went Cait in like 3 of them, just stomps everywhere :D
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Is going straight BT on graves worth it? Get more AD for Buckshot/Collateral Damage (since its higher than IE) and i feel like he could use the lifesteal since his range isnt that big
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On August 01 2012 03:26 jcc wrote:
Hey guys good Cait discussion. Honestly she has grown ALOT on me, and i've really learned to abuse her zoning / harass potential in poke comps. Also her slipperiness in certain teamfights rivals even ezreal with the right team comp. Her E not only gives distance, but slows, and agravates bruisers to no end. Her R is more often used to maintain enemy LOW HP at towers while you are sieging than to secure kills in poke comp. Although at the end of certain fights it comes up and you can maybe clean up a kill. With Cait its all about lane dominance, lane safety, mid game pushing, and then late game sustain dps / zoning / survival.
Also I just added a Cait Traps picture section, any comments or improvements are appreciated. Im gonna add a section on where Graves can dash, and maybe where Tristana / Corki can jump / fly over. And how to address how buggy Trist's jump can be. I want to make a detailed section on match ups, but the more I think about it, the more daunting and rediculous it will be to actually do lol, so gimme more time on that....
On the caitlyn traps, when actively pushing creeps INTO their tower, I find the best overall combination of traps involves zoning them from the sides of the tower in either a horizontal or a vertical line. If they want the ranged creeps, they have to walk around the far side of the lane opposite the tower, giving you an easy time shooting them.
Instead of the
oo___Oo spacing, I like the __ooOo spacing, forcing the enemy AD to go in the _'s.
Level 1 trapping is also something that might be good to add. Good places to trap are the bushes by red, level 2 gank protection for your top laner (primarily on purple side), anti-invasion traps (Along paths that people like to take to invade, tribush by blue, river bush behind blue)
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On August 02 2012 19:43 arb wrote:
Is going straight BT on graves worth it? Get more AD for Buckshot/Collateral Damage (since its higher than IE) and i feel like he could use the lifesteal since his range isnt that big
Think its sort of as getting a sheen on some champions. If you are ahead, get more ahead. If you are ahead with graves, get a BT to get more ahead. If not. get dorans, zekers
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On August 02 2012 20:02 Lmui wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 03:26 jcc wrote:
Hey guys good Cait discussion. Honestly she has grown ALOT on me, and i've really learned to abuse her zoning / harass potential in poke comps. Also her slipperiness in certain teamfights rivals even ezreal with the right team comp. Her E not only gives distance, but slows, and agravates bruisers to no end. Her R is more often used to maintain enemy LOW HP at towers while you are sieging than to secure kills in poke comp. Although at the end of certain fights it comes up and you can maybe clean up a kill. With Cait its all about lane dominance, lane safety, mid game pushing, and then late game sustain dps / zoning / survival.
Also I just added a Cait Traps picture section, any comments or improvements are appreciated. Im gonna add a section on where Graves can dash, and maybe where Tristana / Corki can jump / fly over. And how to address how buggy Trist's jump can be. I want to make a detailed section on match ups, but the more I think about it, the more daunting and rediculous it will be to actually do lol, so gimme more time on that.... On the caitlyn traps, when actively pushing creeps INTO their tower, I find the best overall combination of traps involves zoning them from the sides of the tower in either a horizontal or a vertical line. If they want the ranged creeps, they have to walk around the far side of the lane opposite the tower, giving you an easy time shooting them. Instead of the oo___Oo spacing, I like the __ooOo spacing, forcing the enemy AD to go in the _'s. Level 1 trapping is also something that might be good to add. Good places to trap are the bushes by red, level 2 gank protection for your top laner (primarily on purple side), anti-invasion traps (Along paths that people like to take to invade, tribush by blue, river bush behind blue)
I typically don't like trapping those early invade areas because typically we always know where they ate ad where they are gonna invade from. We also tend to throw down a ward at our blue and camp in our red or vice versa. But ya I think I'll add a few of those pics, it's what I used to do before we used wards.
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On August 02 2012 19:43 arb wrote:
Is going straight BT on graves worth it? Get more AD for Buckshot/Collateral Damage (since its higher than IE) and i feel like he could use the lifesteal since his range isnt that big
Early BT is fine, Chaox does it often. Just do it if you're already ahead, I woulnt suggest it if you're behind.
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Glad TL still loves Cait. Doublelift's caitlyn is disgusting to watch, it's fucking impeccable.
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On August 03 2012 01:58 wei2coolman wrote:
Glad TL still loves Cait. Doublelift's caitlyn is disgusting to watch, it's fucking impeccable.
She's probably my favorite to play behind Ezreal, but I think she could use some tweaks to get her in line with other ADs. I don't think she's totally trash, though, just bad later on compared to others. She can (and does) still carry the hell out of games if you know how to lane well with her.
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On August 03 2012 02:03 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 01:58 wei2coolman wrote:
Glad TL still loves Cait. Doublelift's caitlyn is disgusting to watch, it's fucking impeccable. She's probably my favorite to play behind Ezreal, but I think she could use some tweaks to get her in line with other ADs. I don't think she's totally trash, though, just bad later on compared to others. She can (and does) still carry the hell out of games if you know how to lane well with her.
Doublelift makes Caitlyn looks op'd as fuckkkkkk. Then again, doublelift makes every ad carry look op'd as fuck~. I think the only real change I want on caitlyn is to make her Q a bit more in line w/ graves Q and sivir's Q.
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Maybe if she didn't have the worst ult ever she'd be more viable. Having something so unreliable as an ult is really bad. I wish it worked like a souped up targetted version of her Q -- it'll blow through targets who try to block it and reduce damage on the way through to the target, but it ALWAYS hits the target. She's a sniper, why is she constantly missing all of her shots? >:[
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On August 03 2012 02:07 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Maybe if she didn't have the worst ult ever she'd be more viable. Having something so unreliable as an ult is really bad. I wish it worked like a souped up targetted version of her Q -- it'll blow through targets who try to block it and reduce damage on the way through to the target, but it ALWAYS hits the target. She's a sniper, why is she constantly missing all of her shots? >:[
She doesn't miss her shot, people just block it....
I think i've mentioned in the GD, that it's one of my favorite ulti's from a design perspective~
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Eh, it's fine I think. If it were more reliable (or couldn't be blocked or something like that), it'd be absurd. As it is, it's still a huge chunk of damage to anyone not stacking armor. You just need to know when and where to use it, can't always save it for that one perfect shot where the almost-dead squishy is running away by himself. I find that it's always useful as long as you don't horribly waste it: either it chunks a squishy (hopefully forcing them away from the fight), or it forces a bruiser/tank to get out of position, something your team can and should exploit.
Could it be better? Yes, by a good margin. I just don't think it's as completely useless as people make it out to be.
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On August 03 2012 02:15 Requizen wrote:
Eh, it's fine I think. If it were more reliable (or couldn't be blocked or something like that), it'd be absurd. As it is, it's still a huge chunk of damage to anyone not stacking armor. You just need to know when and where to use it, can't always save it for that one perfect shot where the almost-dead squishy is running away by himself. I find that it's always useful as long as you don't horribly waste it: either it chunks a squishy (hopefully forcing them away from the fight), or it forces a bruiser/tank to get out of position, something your team can and should exploit.
Could it be better? Yes, by a good margin. I just don't think it's as completely useless as people make it out to be.
Most of the time I use it in laning phase just to force people out of lane, rather than as a kill shot. There will be times when enemy AD's are at half health, under their tower, and there's no obvious way to kill them if your junglers not there to help w/ the tower dive. So I usually just ulti them, and usually it'll force them to back, allowing for a) you to back or b)take tower.
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On July 31 2012 04:08 little fancy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 23:20 Requizen wrote:
Her late game is good if you have a decent CC/peeler like Ali, Skar, Leona, etc, but in that case, they'd be better peeling for Kog or something. She has her strengths, sure, but she just lacks superpower that other carries bring.
Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 02:04 Sufficiency wrote:
The problem with Caitlyn in late game is that her steroid is not so great. Compared to Corki, Caitlyn's passive does not work on her crits... otherwise it's almost the same passive. However Corki has a much better gap closer and poke than Caitlyn's.
Of course, If you need a glass cannon that 3 shots squishies lategame and shits steroids, Caitlyn is obviously not the AD you're looking for, I'll give you that. But both your arguments are based on the assumption that the team comp in your scenario needs the AD for damage. It's obvious that Kog and Corki can be dealing more lategame damage, but that's not the point of Caitlyn. You have done something seriously wrong during picks/bans if you complain about your team's missing lategame damage but picked Caitlyn as an AD. That's like saying "omg Ashe so weak lategame damage no steroid she's too weak". Just like Caitlyn, you don't pick Ashe for her pure DPS output but rather for her utility and #1 initiation. Ridicoulus lane domination, traps and constant 650 range are the signature characteristics of Cait. If you can make good use of her laning, tower sieging and nice kiting ability and have another main DPS source in your team (some super endgame carry like Vlad / Jax / Karthus etc.) she will get the sustained DPS job done, too, because then there is no reason to complain about your team's lategame DPS.
TBH, Caitlyn can peel for herself quite well. Standing on your own traps, having E to use on bruisers who dive you, and great range all contribute to this. Peeling isn't her problem.
She doesn't dominate lanes the way she once did, however - which is why she fell out of favor. Even though she has great range, between her Q taking a hefty damage hit and her MS being lowered, she has a harder time doing enough free harass as she wants without a fight being forced upon her. Currently, there are just better picks for "I want lane dominance" and "I want a good poke comp."
She might be good if you want to take out early towers fast, or send your support to roam heavily and leave the AD carry to often be 1v2 (Hard to zone vs 650 range + traps) or some other weird niche situations, but she just is hard to justify as a pick given the current state of other AD carries vs her. Right now, I think ezreal fills the role Cait once did (strong harass lane, good poke for fights... he doesn't have the Towerpush power she does though.) She also has a very hard time against the hyper aggressive botlanes which are commonplace now but were not when she was in her prime (She never had to lane against stuff like Leona+Corki or anything involving Graves) and sustaining supports were king. She could put out enough harass to outmatch even the once-stronger sustain from Soraka/Sona while being able to lean on similar sustain herself to shrug off the harass she'd receive in return. The game is different now, there are too many lane combos that will just look to try and 100->0 Caitlyn or her support and it just won't matter how much harass she can put out when one good Leona/Blitz/Taric/Alistar + whatever AD carry kills her.
Also remember that when Cait was in her prime, she was picked to lane against Kog and Vayne very often - two champions she still does well against. It wasn't important that she got farmed and got a great late game, it was more important to the teams who picked her that she DENIED that farm and late game to the opposing carry. Now that carries like Ezreal, Corki, Graves are more popular, it takes a different type of laner if you want to shut down a carry who doesn't take as long to get to be terrifying (hello, Urgot.)
The problem with Caitlyn is just that she is a niche pick for a niche that isn't as common currently.
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