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On May 22 2012 05:35 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 05:34 TwoToneTerran wrote:
If Lee starts red and you're his first gank top that means you get to see him come through the tri brush, right? Or is he going to take the long path around through the river to get to the brush to camp you?
If Shaco does the exact same thing then he's literally behind you, with a box to your only retreat path even if you flash, while you're exhausted, hitting you with red buff. ...wat?
If Lee sin is level 2 ganking you after red buff and you're top lane, that means he's purple side and his only time efficient gank path to gank top after red means him running through his own tribrush to camp your river brush(as mogwai pointed out, he sits in your river brush waiting for you to walk up to last hit). Unless your lane opponent can flash cc you, you can strafe around the bottom area of your lane (where the river is at) to have full view of the exit from the enemy tri brush. The only way for him to circumvent this vision is to loop around the path between wraiths and red and go into river and walk all the way up to your river brush while hugging the wall to get there.
You will probably have to sacrifice 1 melee creep and a ranged creep or two out of your first wave to keep the vision up, but if he's still camping you then it's worth it to make him miss jungling time and let your lane push.
Edit: Visual aid
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/grA8M.png)
If lee's ganking you right after red, then that's the path he usually has to take in red. If you stand in the white area and forego a last hit or two, he can't even come close to you unless your lane opponent can quickly cc you from where they're last hitting at.
If you're on purple side and he's on blue side then the only way he's level 2 ganking you is if he started blue and then he can come behind you from your own tribrush which kinda sucks but any exhaust jungler can pretty much do the same. But he's got no red buff and if your jungler started red then that can really turn the situation, also the second you see him come behind you that way you can flash and start running and probably survive, but you've definitely lost your lane (as you have no matter what when you get ganked and your jungler doesn't gank for you so eh).
I always thought the scariest gank top lane was if I'm purple side and the enemy has a nautilus. That anchor's pretty easy to land, he can gank me right after blue then that snare and damage from his shield is a pain. Lee's still a scary ganker, but I always thought he really needs his whole set of skills that give him crazy maneuverability to be really scary, unlike shaco who has annoying invisiblinks and extra damage if you run away.
I mean heck if you're any kind of champion with an ability to ranged farm then this is even easier to pull off since you can last hit that way and be relatively safe. I guess if you're playing pantheon this blows ass though since if you're not being aggressive on pantheon you lose horribly. It's really situational but I always though lee's ganks don't get really scary until he's level 3 and can safegaurd to reliably gap close and set up his plethora of bullshit.
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So wait, you're putting yourself further from your tower to stay safer... what?
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On May 22 2012 05:59 Mogwai wrote:
So wait, you're putting yourself further from your tower to stay safer... what?
Yes? Vision and knowing if he's coming or not are more important. He can't get close to you if you see him, and if you see him you can outrun him to your tower, generally. Unless he takes the time to lane gank which is pretty hard at level 2.
edit: The effective distance of the gank is changed. If you're in the middle of your lane and he's in your river brush, then he's closer than if you're near the bottom of your lane and he's stuck in his tribrush waiting for you to lose vision of the tribrush exit. You're farther away from your tower, but Lee Sin is farther away from you.
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Or you could always,you know,ask your support to ward the tri against retarded lvl 2 gankers.
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Asking a support to use a ward on a lane that's not his almost never works in soloqueue.
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On May 22 2012 06:01 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 05:59 Mogwai wrote:
So wait, you're putting yourself further from your tower to stay safer... what? Yes? Vision and knowing if he's coming or not are more important. He can't get close to you if you see him, and if you see him you can outrun him to your tower, generally. Unless he takes the time to lane gank which is pretty hard at level 2. edit: The effective distance of the gank is changed. If you're in the middle of your lane and he's in your river brush, then he's closer than if you're near the bottom of your lane and he's stuck in his tribrush waiting for you to lose vision of the tribrush exit. You're farther away from your tower, but Lee Sin is farther away from you.
Except now your lane opponent can cut you off from your tower. Which typically fucks you just as badly, depending on who your lane opponent is.
On May 22 2012 06:02 TheKefka wrote:
Or you could always,you know,ask your support to ward the tri against retarded lvl 2 gankers.
Have you played solo queue before?
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On May 22 2012 06:05 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 06:01 TwoToneTerran wrote:On May 22 2012 05:59 Mogwai wrote:
So wait, you're putting yourself further from your tower to stay safer... what? Yes? Vision and knowing if he's coming or not are more important. He can't get close to you if you see him, and if you see him you can outrun him to your tower, generally. Unless he takes the time to lane gank which is pretty hard at level 2. edit: The effective distance of the gank is changed. If you're in the middle of your lane and he's in your river brush, then he's closer than if you're near the bottom of your lane and he's stuck in his tribrush waiting for you to lose vision of the tribrush exit. You're farther away from your tower, but Lee Sin is farther away from you. Except now your lane opponent can cut you off from your tower. Which typically fucks you just as badly, depending on who your lane opponent is.
I agree, it's all situational. I specifically said if your lane opponent can quickly cc you if you stand there then you're screwed no matter what you do against any good ganker. Your lane opponent would have to walk past your own creeps to cut you off that way, though. It'd be obvious aggression in which case you'd just have to abandon the lane knowing you're camped. It's how any level 2 gank works when you don't have your own jungle support, though.
What good top laners can actually cut you off at level 1, though? Maybe olaf if he starts Q and knows he's getting a gank but that will just force your flash over the edge there to separate you from Lee. I suppose Udyr could too if he starts bear but fuck udyr anyhow.
If he camps till level 2 then a few more options open up like Jarvan/Pantheon/Irelia et al but man, if your enemy jungler is camping you for multiple waves then you might want to call it a lane anyhow.
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Lol I know there are people out there that refuse to do it but usually when I ask nicely and explain to the guy why its beneficial to us if he drops a ward at the wraiths,they usually do it.I don't see why it should be any different if you play top and ask nicely for a ward in the tri.I mean yea lol has people that don't care about other lanes but from my exp you just have to ask nicely and 7 times out of 10 you'll get the ward.
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Maybe on EU servers. I've asked for pre minion spawn support warding and have never, ever been given it. I even said "Shyvanna is going to go straight to my red, if you ward it we can kill her" while I was jungling and they said "no need my wards" and what would you know, shyvanna went to my red and got away. 
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Ever since I learned the benefits of warding wraiths prespawn, I religiously do it when I play support.
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Well when I support and the enemy has like a leesin jungle,shaco,alistar or something stupid like that,first thing I do is go drop a ward up top or wraiths depending on the lanes.Maybe its karma,but really you just have to explain to the dude that there is a high % chance you'll get firstblooded if you don't get it and there is not much you can do about it.They usually understand the fb part and give you a ward.
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You guys are the exceptions. Asking nicely does not work, especially in solo queue (and especially at my crappy elo).
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On May 22 2012 06:08 TheKefka wrote:
Lol I know there are people out there that refuse to do it but usually when I ask nicely and explain to the guy why its beneficial to us if he drops a ward at the wraiths,they usually do it.I don't see why it should be any different if you play top and ask nicely for a ward in the tri.I mean yea lol has people that don't care about other lanes but from my exp you just have to ask nicely and 7 times out of 10 you'll get the ward.
you definitely dont want a ward in the tri. if you support is willing to do this, get the river bush warded. most asshole junglers sit there for days.
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Well I guess the best option would be than to just ward the river in between the tri and river brush since you can see them coming from the tri sooner and from the river as well.Also you can see if they leave the brush or not.It's not like your gonna get lane ganked at lvl 2
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well link IS is original lee singa. too bad he got kicked in the ass by hotshotnidaleegg that tourney.
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someone needs to play some more top lane xD
You guys could just test it out, custom game 1v1 + lee sin jungle. I bet after 2 or so runs you'd be scared shitless to take that CS at gank time lol
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I even said you are going to miss CS. If you are getting level two ganked, losing 60 gold but keeping XP is a win in my book.
And also knowing there's no possibility of counter gank really fucks up any scenario.
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Practical application of warding for other lanes:
1.) Ward for top against a lvl2 red ganker
2.) He gets ganked by the jungler running through the ward
3.) Still first blood
Every time.
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Whenever I play support I always drop a ward in the appropriate place if I think a level 2 gank is possible from guys like Lee Sin or Alistar.
And then whenever I'm top and I realize that the other jungler is a pretty decent level 2 ganker, I just play a bit more safe. At my ELO I don't need the early ward because the other top laner is usually bad and doesn't understand using flash to secure a kill with a cc spell (riven is probably a good example of this), but when I feel like a lot of other tops need it, I give it to them.
THAT, or if the other person took top from me and I REALLY REALLY wanted to play top that day, I usually just wait for the fb and then laugh.
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EPT
