EPT[Patch 1.0.0.139: Spectator Mode] General Discussion - Pag…
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Thereisnosaurus
Australia1822 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21671 Posts
Not sure if it also happends on normal cast but with smart casting Q can fail when your targetting someone with it and release as you lose LoS. have had it happen twice with graves smoke screen where Q would just fizzle without firing and had it happen once when another graves ran into a bush (dont think there was smoke up but not 100% sure). The cast bar will keep showing and the ability wont go on cd untill the 4 seconds are up even tho you released the key and the animation is gone. Same thing also happends if you get stunned while charging. Spell fails but cast bar remains untill the 4second cancel. | ||
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Celial
2602 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21671 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
I disagree and can't really see how Fizz can "dodge" Garen's silence as it's an autoattack (unless it's yet another case of stupid with Playful where you just need to press E while Garen's jumping and you'll automatically dodge the aa and silence? That champ is so dumb I could see it happening), then the silence lasts 2.5s so Fizz eats the majority of Judgement before he can even attempt to use Playful. Also Fizz is melee so he's got to get in Garen's range to deal damage, and since he announces his burst with the delay on his ult, Garen can preemptively use Courage to reduce the damage right before the shark arrives and Fizz jumps in. Am I missing something? | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
fizz is probably fine vs garen in the sense that you are more useful to your team after an even lane but i dont see any reason to believe that the fizz would outright crush the garen. | ||
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N3rV[Green]
United States1935 Posts
SoloQ though.....it's fucking painful. And I also have heard way way way too many different things from different people/guides/stuff. One thing that happens almost every game is somebody will pick a mid or top first pick, and then typically last pick explodes into "OMG YOU WILL GET COUNTERED Y U SO DUMB!!!!????" But what the fuck does "counter" mean? I know that some champs have strong and weak matchups, that makes sense enough, but I simply refuse to believe that if one guy picks champ X and one guy picks champ Y and they go lane against each other, champ X will win EVERY TIME because he is the "counter". When I asked somebody to explain what they meant they gave this example. "Vayne counters Cait cause she can tumble and dodge caits revolver, so cait will never land it on her." So? Big fucking deal? So many things can happen in this game that it just seems silly to ever say that a skill will be made USELESS because a person on the other team has the ability to dodge it....... I've also heard wildly conflicting things. People have told me morde is the ultimate counter to cassio, and then people have told me cassio is a total counter to morde...... I seriously have no idea how to think about this, and I despise "theorycrafters" who do nothing but think about how things might work out instead of just doing it....so anybody with some actual experience and not just "well, if you think about it, it should work like this and this and this" As an example, this turdburgler guy above me....nothing but theorycrafttheorycrafttheorycraft. Why not just go ask a buddy to pick garen, go into a custom game, and check out how it works for 5 minutes? | ||
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ihasaKAROT
Netherlands4730 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
The issue gets to be the "barring bad play" phrase. Realistically, counters only matter at the super high elo/tourney level. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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I_Love_Bacon
United States5765 Posts
The thing about countering is to remember that, unless skill is very close, player skill will almost always win out. Counters do matter, as certain matchups are just inherently bad, but even then, the skill of the players are still more important to the matchup than the champions. Most people make more of a big deal out of counters than they should, but to completely ignore them or not try and understand the importance of it is also extremely faulty. Keep in mind though, and this is probably your problem, you're listening to idiots talk about counters. Their advice on counters is probably as bad as advice on when to push/pull lanes. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On May 11 2012 23:38 N3rV[Green] wrote: As an example, this turdburgler guy above me....nothing but theorycrafttheorycrafttheorycraft. Why not just go ask a buddy to pick garen, go into a custom game, and check out how it works for 5 minutes? Well no, because it takes a lot of practice in a matchup before you can really know who is going to win. I've beaten Caitlyns with Kassadin before, but I still know that cait counters kass if the players know what they are doing at all. On May 11 2012 23:43 Two_DoWn wrote: The issue gets to be the "barring bad play" phrase. Realistically, counters only matter at the super high elo/tourney level. Not at all. Just because I can win a lane against my counterpick with alot more skill doesn't mean it doesn't have a huge effect. Alot of matchups are just hugely easier for one champs than the other. I will absolutely destroy some of my bad friends with LB mid, but if they go APsion they will do 150% better, and could even win the lane. I might still win the lane if they are really bad, but it takes a fuckton more skill and effort. I may have to be 4 times as good as you to beat you in lane with a counterpick, whereas I would win with only 120% of your skill in a more even lane. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Cassiopea counters a lot of mids in the sense that her long range, low cd, skill-shot based harass allows her to bully a lot of midlaners, namely all the melee ones, most of the short-range, those who are weak in the first few levels, and some others (Ryze stands still while casting so he eats Q, and in a straight-up trade Cass outdamages him). On top of that, she doesn't fall off (she's actually one of the best magic damage dealer in the late game, with Vlad, Swain, Ryze, Rumble, Karthus and some others). They don't outright lose to her.. But any mistake will get you punished hard, making you lose easily against her, and she can zone you so she wins lane anyway if she's good. Also it's Caitlyn that's supposed to beat Vayne, huge ass range advantage all day long, you don't try to Q her. Regarding Garen/Fizz, take for example what I wondered: "if Fizz press E during Garen's Q's animation, does it automatically dodge it [w/oanyeffortwhatsoevergodisthatchampapieceoftrashunfundesignrantrantrant]?". If no, then it gives Garen an edge to zone Fizz from last hitting, or at least try to initiate a trade. If yes, then it relies on the Fizz player's ability to hit E during that timing to be able to engage/disengage against Garen. No "you auto-lose". Some lanes get fuckin' hard tho (Olaf against Poppy, Pantheon vs Garen/Renekton, Jax vs Fiora). | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On May 11 2012 23:38 N3rV[Green] wrote: As an example, this turdburgler guy above me....nothing but theorycrafttheorycrafttheorycraft. Why not just go ask a buddy to pick garen, go into a custom game, and check out how it works for 5 minutes? because why would i put more effort into testing the result when the guy asking the question put in 0 effort? if you ask a theory based question, expect a theory based answer. if he came to the thread and said his 2.4k elo friend who only plays fizz says garen sucks vs fizz then i wouldnt of said what i did. | ||
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N3rV[Green]
United States1935 Posts
On May 11 2012 23:46 zulu_nation8 wrote: 90% of the time player with higher skill wins lane, some MUs are harder than others but there are way less hard counters than people think. Thank you all, mostly just looking for some sanity in the chaos that is people playing this game, but this is what I've stood by ever since my DotA days. I mean I do understand that some matchups are just really really hard, but it still won't make your champ useless ya know? The idea of counters seems to be focused on the laning phase, and most of the time it's between the mid/top laners. But the game is NEVER a 1v1, no matter what. Having your jungler come camp a hard lane to help you out, having mid come top/bot come mid and make plays, 5v5 teamfights as well, the "counters" shouldn't really matter at all if you just play it well right? I honestly think my biggest problem is the massive amount of theorycrafting people use to justify things, and then through my direct experience i find it to be absolutely untrue. But then again, I am at 1.1k elo, and shit is fucking nasty down there. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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I_Love_Bacon
United States5765 Posts
On May 11 2012 23:59 N3rV[Green] wrote: Thank you all, mostly just looking for some sanity in the chaos that is people playing this game, but this is what I've stood by ever since my DotA days. I mean I do understand that some matchups are just really really hard, but it still won't make your champ useless ya know? The idea of counters seems to be focused on the laning phase, and most of the time it's between the mid/top laners. But the game is NEVER a 1v1, no matter what. Having your jungler come camp a hard lane to help you out, having mid come top/bot come mid and make plays, 5v5 teamfights as well, the "counters" shouldn't really matter at all if you just play it well right? I honestly think my biggest problem is the massive amount of theorycrafting people use to justify things, and then through my direct experience i find it to be absolutely untrue. But then again, I am at 1.1k elo, and shit is fucking nasty down there. The problem is you're making positive assumptions about one team while not for the other in your scenario. If their jungler repeatedly helps out struggling lanes, that should free up the other jungler for counterganks or lanes to push freely without fear for their safety. Also, there is a great distinction between random people in the game who give advice on matchups and a board that has some high elo players and even the ones who aren't can formulate an opinion without sounding like idiots (usually). | ||
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Lounge
537 Posts
Would it be fun to be able to last pick something like Kat when you realize the other team has no stun or silence what-so-ever? Yeah that would be cool, but it's no guarantee you'll win the game anymore than your first pick taking Cass and being played by your highest Elo player. EDIT: I should clarify I'm not advocating first picking Kat and ignoring her weaknesses, but rather there's plenty of "safe" mid and tops that can come even or ahead with the counters just based on player skill. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21671 Posts
On May 11 2012 23:59 N3rV[Green] wrote: Thank you all, mostly just looking for some sanity in the chaos that is people playing this game, but this is what I've stood by ever since my DotA days. I mean I do understand that some matchups are just really really hard, but it still won't make your champ useless ya know? The idea of counters seems to be focused on the laning phase, and most of the time it's between the mid/top laners. But the game is NEVER a 1v1, no matter what. Having your jungler come camp a hard lane to help you out, having mid come top/bot come mid and make plays, 5v5 teamfights as well, the "counters" shouldn't really matter at all if you just play it well right? I honestly think my biggest problem is the massive amount of theorycrafting people use to justify things, and then through my direct experience i find it to be absolutely untrue. But then again, I am at 1.1k elo, and shit is fucking nasty down there. The most important thing imo is to realise that soloQ has nothing to do with tournament games. As others have said yes counters are very real but only if 2 people of equal skill meet. As for your statement that the game is never a 1v1. well soloQ will show you different. You cannot trust whatever random jungler the game pairs you with to be able to effectivly camp your lane, let alone do so without falling behind himself. Imo in soloQ if you cant win your lane on your own then your going to be at a big disadvantage cause it will happen often that your teammates cant or wont help. And yes theorycraft is totaly usefull. LoL isnt that easy of a game to practice let alone test theorys. Take the garen/fizz for exampe. The outcome will for a large part depend on player skill. If one player is better then the other he will probably win regardless of champion, theorycrafting if done correctly assumes 2 people playing perfectly and tries to figure out the result. Yet experiance often says different because of differences in skill effecting the outcome. | ||
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