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On May 11 2012 15:22 Parnage wrote:
It won't affect me in fact it's possible it may help me out in the long run but it does mean that you have to be more careful with people when trading champs as you can't rely on that free week champ everyone has. I dunno, I honestly don't mind them as I always kinda figure if someone is playing ranked with a free week they have at least some idea of what to do. I mean no one would ever willingly screw themselves over, would they?
Ofcourse not , its the internet, that stuff neeeever happens...
Just because someone plays a champion that is free to play that week doenst mean they didnt have that champion already y'know.
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In order never to get people to assume I don't own the champion, I bought a skin.
Now only my wallet complains.
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On May 11 2012 15:36 Fuzzmosis wrote:
If Riot was going to do that, I imagine they could also just release a 9750 RP "ranked games" picks just taking the top 10 ranked picked heros.
despite whatever their carefully worded announcement says, if this happens it's because it will increase ip and rp spending, the fact that a large part of the community supports the change just makes it very convenient for them
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On May 11 2012 14:21 Slusher wrote:
Honestly, it's pretty though for someone to cast LoL unless they are a well known and respected player, the problem with league is there is more than one way to skin a cat, and most people feel like if you don't do it their way your a fucking moron.
That said I don't like the NESL casting either >.>
and directed camera is sadly the best obs (all leagues included)
also Overt, it's a two way street, like, NESL needs the big name teams more than the teams need them, gotta give to get.
The OGN LoL observer is very good, as usual of korean observers.
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On May 11 2012 15:52 chalice wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 15:36 Fuzzmosis wrote:
If Riot was going to do that, I imagine they could also just release a 9750 RP "ranked games" picks just taking the top 10 ranked picked heros. despite whatever their carefully worded announcement says, if this happens it's because it will increase ip and rp spending, the fact that a large part of the community supports the change just makes it very convenient for them
I just think they would do it at a discount.
Really, with 5 of them being Janna/Soraka/Ashe/Alistar/Warwick who are basically free anyway, toss in a Morganna, Ryze, Graves, Riven and Udyr. Maybe make it 2500 RP.
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tbh, a good human observer is better than the directed camera imo.
the way directed camera works atm makes it so that most of the camera time is focused on the bot lane since that's where most of the "aggression" is usually done during lane phase. On top of that, if the camera pans away, it takes away the suspense since you know the guy is going to live.
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On May 11 2012 14:04 TheYango wrote:
I can understand the fiscal logic behind TSM's decision to drop out of the tournament. But doing so displays a certain lack of professionalism that I would hope to see from a competitive team. Staying in it for the spirit of the competition, rather than just dropping out because it's not going to be profitable. Dropping out of a tournament because "you can't pay us enough money for this to be worth our while" indicates a lack of respect for the tournament and it's organizers.
This, x1000. This is a community that basically "grew up" watching Regi, Hotshot, Dyrus... These guys would be nothing without their fans. Their fans want to watch them play competitive games and root for them. And they turn it down? TBH, TSM fans should be pretty pissed. I wouldn't throw my support at people like that. RIOT should step in or something. Can you imagine the '98 Chicago Bulls stepping down from the NBA Playoffs so they could play streetball? The NBA higher-ups would have a fit... So bad for the sport, so bad for the image, so so bad
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On May 11 2012 15:39 Treadmill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 15:03 overt wrote:On May 11 2012 14:51 Treadmill wrote:On May 11 2012 14:04 TheYango wrote:
I can understand the fiscal logic behind TSM's decision to drop out of the tournament. But doing so displays a certain lack of professionalism that I would hope to see from a competitive team. Staying in it for the spirit of the competition, rather than just dropping out because it's not going to be profitable. Dropping out of a tournament because "you can't pay us enough money for this to be worth our while" indicates a lack of respect for the tournament and it's organizers. They only joined the tournament because they were told that it was okay if they streamed; they planned on not taking part at all if it wasn't. NESL changing their minds - or making the exception in the first place - speaks to a lack of professionalism from them. TSM is, in my mind, completely in the clear on this. This doesn't seem to be true. There has always been a no-streaming rule. Unless an admin went idiot mode and lied to them or they were given a backdoor special exception then no. From what I've read from NESL admins before this tournament even started they had a no-streaming rule. Any source on this from NESL? scarra: "They never got changed. It's been the same since it started." So either TSM lied or one of their fans lied. This is exactly what happened. Someone on ESL said it was OK - maybe even someone who didn't have the authority to say so, but TSM wouldn't have known that. And that was the only reason TSM agreed to play the tournament in the first place. So either a. TSM are entirely a bunch of complete lieing douchebags, which they aren't (though some people seem to believe ). Or b. ESL is a crappily run organization with shitty communication. Which they are.
I just haven't seen any source for this. So it seems to be hearsay. Unless someone from TSM came out and said this and could name the admin who told them that.
I haven't seen anyone say where this came from. If it was something Regi or someone else from TSM said on stream or what. For all I know some fan started saying it and it just spread around. Also, even if they were told differently they've been playing in this tournament for awhile. Seems weird that they'd suddenly just now be mad about the no stream rule.
And I'm not trying to imply that TSM lied. I don't even know if it was TSM who claimed this. It just seems like a weird turn of events and no one has given any details about where this rumor came from.
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"We would like to state that TSM at the moment is not disqualified from any NESL or ESL event in the future. After not playing their match tonight, TSM will receive 1 Major Penalty which will leave them with 8 more Minor Penalties, before any other action can take place. We would also like to state that the TSM and other teams have agreed to those rules before accepting the invitation to the National ESL Pro Series. All the teams had the opportunity to voice their concerns towards the rules at the beginning on of the season as well. We hope that this statement will cut all the speculation that is happening at the moment."
– National ESL Staff
http://www.nationalesl.com/us/news/193453/
The rule about streaming is on page 24, section 6.4
The NESL reserves all streaming rights and prohibits any individual team or player to stream a Pro Series match. Failure to comply will result in immediate disqualification, relegation out of the Pro Series, and forfeiture of any participation bonuses earned prior to the match in preparation of being played. In addition the team in violation of this rule will be may be prohibited from participation in the upcoming Pro Series season, to be decided by the NESL administrative staff.
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On May 11 2012 16:08 deskscaress wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 14:04 TheYango wrote:
I can understand the fiscal logic behind TSM's decision to drop out of the tournament. But doing so displays a certain lack of professionalism that I would hope to see from a competitive team. Staying in it for the spirit of the competition, rather than just dropping out because it's not going to be profitable. Dropping out of a tournament because "you can't pay us enough money for this to be worth our while" indicates a lack of respect for the tournament and it's organizers. This, x1000. This is a community that basically "grew up" watching Regi, Hotshot, Dyrus... These guys would be nothing without their fans. Their fans want to watch them play competitive games and root for them. And they turn it down? TBH, TSM fans should be pretty pissed. I wouldn't throw my support at people like that. RIOT should step in or something. Can you imagine the '98 Chicago Bulls stepping down from the NBA Playoffs so they could play streetball? The NBA higher-ups would have a fit... So bad for the sport, so bad for the image, so so bad
No?
NESL themselves are pretty terrible. I don't watch their streams full stop because of their commentators, streaming and organisation are horribly sub-par. The fact that by individually streaming they get more total viewers than ESL already shows what the fans want, please don't talk for the general public.
Comparing NESL to the NBA is ridiculous. If anything, think of it as a charity event. The players give up their time and money for NESL to make money and the organisation keeps the money, does a really bad job and insults the viewers and the players playing.
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On May 11 2012 16:10 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 15:39 Treadmill wrote:On May 11 2012 15:03 overt wrote:On May 11 2012 14:51 Treadmill wrote:On May 11 2012 14:04 TheYango wrote:
I can understand the fiscal logic behind TSM's decision to drop out of the tournament. But doing so displays a certain lack of professionalism that I would hope to see from a competitive team. Staying in it for the spirit of the competition, rather than just dropping out because it's not going to be profitable. Dropping out of a tournament because "you can't pay us enough money for this to be worth our while" indicates a lack of respect for the tournament and it's organizers. They only joined the tournament because they were told that it was okay if they streamed; they planned on not taking part at all if it wasn't. NESL changing their minds - or making the exception in the first place - speaks to a lack of professionalism from them. TSM is, in my mind, completely in the clear on this. This doesn't seem to be true. There has always been a no-streaming rule. Unless an admin went idiot mode and lied to them or they were given a backdoor special exception then no. From what I've read from NESL admins before this tournament even started they had a no-streaming rule. Any source on this from NESL? scarra: "They never got changed. It's been the same since it started." So either TSM lied or one of their fans lied. This is exactly what happened. Someone on ESL said it was OK - maybe even someone who didn't have the authority to say so, but TSM wouldn't have known that. And that was the only reason TSM agreed to play the tournament in the first place. So either a. TSM are entirely a bunch of complete lieing douchebags, which they aren't (though some people seem to believe ). Or b. ESL is a crappily run organization with shitty communication. Which they are. I just haven't seen any source for this. So it seems to be hearsay. Unless someone from TSM came out and said this and could name the admin who told them that. I haven't seen anyone say where this came from. If it was something Regi or someone else from TSM said on stream or what. For all I know some fan started saying it and it just spread around. Also, even if they were told differently they've been playing in this tournament for awhile. Seems weird that they'd suddenly just now be mad about the no stream rule. And I'm not trying to imply that TSM lied. I don't even know if it was TSM who claimed this. It just seems like a weird turn of events and no one has given any details about where this rumor came from.
I can't cite exactly but I distinctly remember Chaox and Regi talking about this on stream a little while ago. They were saying that they had been told (I'm assuming by some admin that went full idiot mode) that it was okay if they streamed and that this was the only reason they agreed to take part in the tournament at all. So that's their side of things. Honestly I believe them more than bullshitty explanations from ESL about how "hey look at this page on our site see there are rules".
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On May 11 2012 16:50 Treadmill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 16:10 overt wrote:On May 11 2012 15:39 Treadmill wrote:On May 11 2012 15:03 overt wrote:On May 11 2012 14:51 Treadmill wrote:On May 11 2012 14:04 TheYango wrote:
I can understand the fiscal logic behind TSM's decision to drop out of the tournament. But doing so displays a certain lack of professionalism that I would hope to see from a competitive team. Staying in it for the spirit of the competition, rather than just dropping out because it's not going to be profitable. Dropping out of a tournament because "you can't pay us enough money for this to be worth our while" indicates a lack of respect for the tournament and it's organizers. They only joined the tournament because they were told that it was okay if they streamed; they planned on not taking part at all if it wasn't. NESL changing their minds - or making the exception in the first place - speaks to a lack of professionalism from them. TSM is, in my mind, completely in the clear on this. This doesn't seem to be true. There has always been a no-streaming rule. Unless an admin went idiot mode and lied to them or they were given a backdoor special exception then no. From what I've read from NESL admins before this tournament even started they had a no-streaming rule. Any source on this from NESL? scarra: "They never got changed. It's been the same since it started." So either TSM lied or one of their fans lied. This is exactly what happened. Someone on ESL said it was OK - maybe even someone who didn't have the authority to say so, but TSM wouldn't have known that. And that was the only reason TSM agreed to play the tournament in the first place. So either a. TSM are entirely a bunch of complete lieing douchebags, which they aren't (though some people seem to believe ). Or b. ESL is a crappily run organization with shitty communication. Which they are. I just haven't seen any source for this. So it seems to be hearsay. Unless someone from TSM came out and said this and could name the admin who told them that. I haven't seen anyone say where this came from. If it was something Regi or someone else from TSM said on stream or what. For all I know some fan started saying it and it just spread around. Also, even if they were told differently they've been playing in this tournament for awhile. Seems weird that they'd suddenly just now be mad about the no stream rule. And I'm not trying to imply that TSM lied. I don't even know if it was TSM who claimed this. It just seems like a weird turn of events and no one has given any details about where this rumor came from. I can't cite exactly but I distinctly remember Chaox and Regi talking about this on stream a little while ago. They were saying that they had been told (I'm assuming by some admin that went full idiot mode) that it was okay if they streamed and that this was the only reason they agreed to take part in the tournament at all. So that's their side of things. Honestly I believe them more than bullshitty explanations from ESL about how "hey look at this page on our site see there are rules".
Well, for starters, the rule has definitely 100% been there since the beginning.
But if that's true and they were lied to or mislead by someone from NESL then yeah, I'd believe TSM over NESL. NESL really should offer some sort of apology for mis-leading TSM imo.
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This isn't the first time TSM has played in this tournament. No recollection if they streamed their previous matches. Still good teams left in this, if TSM is to no longer to participate should be fine. Just sucks for them to make a mess with the NESL when it sounds like they have no interest in Korea. Though I imagine the MLG LoL experience will be better this time around.
Sure its likely not as much as they would make from streaming, but NESL does give each team $100 per game they play on stream.
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It's bad for NESL but it's also pretty poor of TSM. You can say whatever you want about the NESL's quality but how the hell can they do anything about it if you don't actually watch them? Why would they do anything if they can get the excuse "oh no one even watches us they watch the players" as a reason to not upgrade themselves and have a better stream.
It's not charity, it's a tournament. If you don't like the tournament, TELL THEM! Hell if you think you can do better Please try to talk to them to do just that. I'd love to hear some quality commentators on the NESL stream. I mean it's not a bad rule by any means just a matter of things changing as is likely to happen. Honestly it looks bad on TSM more then the tournament in my opinion.
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On May 11 2012 16:55 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 16:50 Treadmill wrote:On May 11 2012 16:10 overt wrote:On May 11 2012 15:39 Treadmill wrote:On May 11 2012 15:03 overt wrote:On May 11 2012 14:51 Treadmill wrote:On May 11 2012 14:04 TheYango wrote:
I can understand the fiscal logic behind TSM's decision to drop out of the tournament. But doing so displays a certain lack of professionalism that I would hope to see from a competitive team. Staying in it for the spirit of the competition, rather than just dropping out because it's not going to be profitable. Dropping out of a tournament because "you can't pay us enough money for this to be worth our while" indicates a lack of respect for the tournament and it's organizers. They only joined the tournament because they were told that it was okay if they streamed; they planned on not taking part at all if it wasn't. NESL changing their minds - or making the exception in the first place - speaks to a lack of professionalism from them. TSM is, in my mind, completely in the clear on this. This doesn't seem to be true. There has always been a no-streaming rule. Unless an admin went idiot mode and lied to them or they were given a backdoor special exception then no. From what I've read from NESL admins before this tournament even started they had a no-streaming rule. Any source on this from NESL? scarra: "They never got changed. It's been the same since it started." So either TSM lied or one of their fans lied. This is exactly what happened. Someone on ESL said it was OK - maybe even someone who didn't have the authority to say so, but TSM wouldn't have known that. And that was the only reason TSM agreed to play the tournament in the first place. So either a. TSM are entirely a bunch of complete lieing douchebags, which they aren't (though some people seem to believe ). Or b. ESL is a crappily run organization with shitty communication. Which they are. I just haven't seen any source for this. So it seems to be hearsay. Unless someone from TSM came out and said this and could name the admin who told them that. I haven't seen anyone say where this came from. If it was something Regi or someone else from TSM said on stream or what. For all I know some fan started saying it and it just spread around. Also, even if they were told differently they've been playing in this tournament for awhile. Seems weird that they'd suddenly just now be mad about the no stream rule. And I'm not trying to imply that TSM lied. I don't even know if it was TSM who claimed this. It just seems like a weird turn of events and no one has given any details about where this rumor came from. I can't cite exactly but I distinctly remember Chaox and Regi talking about this on stream a little while ago. They were saying that they had been told (I'm assuming by some admin that went full idiot mode) that it was okay if they streamed and that this was the only reason they agreed to take part in the tournament at all. So that's their side of things. Honestly I believe them more than bullshitty explanations from ESL about how "hey look at this page on our site see there are rules". Well, for starters, the rule has definitely 100% been there since the beginning. But if that's true and they were lied to or mislead by someone from NESL then yeah, I'd believe TSM over NESL. NESL really should offer some sort of apology for mis-leading TSM imo.
I don't know if the rule was there or not, but it definitely not strictly enforced or it was waived in earlier rounds. Multiple teams streamed earlier NESL games without punishment. It would have been very important for NESL to get big teams onto their tournament early to establish a name for themselves - I can easily see why they may have promised or told these teams things that they are now going back on.
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On May 11 2012 16:04 Ryuu314 wrote:
tbh, a good human observer is better than the directed camera imo.
the way directed camera works atm makes it so that most of the camera time is focused on the bot lane since that's where most of the "aggression" is usually done during lane phase. On top of that, if the camera pans away, it takes away the suspense since you know the guy is going to live.
Directed camera in lol is nowhere near as good as dota 2 directed camera. Misses kills all the time, not really any better than a lazy human.
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NESL has a lot of incompetent admins who often abuse their powers, make bad calls, and/or say something that is a lie and goes against what other NESL admins say. We've had a lot of these instances as far as I recall. =/
So even though I don't really like Regi, I completely believe his side.
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The crux of the problem seems to be that people don't read the rules, ever.
They don't have to ask some random admin, they could just read the rules instead.
But no, they don't read the rules, and then act surprised when there's rules they didn't know about.
Reading rules is good for you.
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That's not it at all. They KNEW the rules. They asked if they would be allowed to stream, knowing full well the ESL forbids it in the rules, cause they were only going to play in the tourney IF they were allowed to stream. Their side of the story is that the admin said they were allowed to stream the games, so they did. Only later did ESL admins decide to go back on their word and say, no, the rules forbids it so they can't, so TSM forfeit and left the tourney.
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On May 11 2012 16:04 Ryuu314 wrote:
On top of that, if the camera pans away, it takes away the suspense since you know the guy is going to live.
Wrong: I once had the directed cam stick to bot lane for a while, then it went for top or mid, dunno. Kill in bot lane. Cam goes back bot, switches to somewhere else again. Second kill in bot lane. That was all just one engagement in bot lane.
Riot needs to improve on it, but that shouldn't be too hard...
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EPT
