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On May 12 2012 00:21 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 00:10 Gorsameth wrote:On May 11 2012 23:59 N3rV[Green] wrote:On May 11 2012 23:46 zulu_nation8 wrote:
90% of the time player with higher skill wins lane, some MUs are harder than others but there are way less hard counters than people think. Thank you all, mostly just looking for some sanity in the chaos that is people playing this game, but this is what I've stood by ever since my DotA days. I mean I do understand that some matchups are just really really hard, but it still won't make your champ useless ya know? The idea of counters seems to be focused on the laning phase, and most of the time it's between the mid/top laners. But the game is NEVER a 1v1, no matter what. Having your jungler come camp a hard lane to help you out, having mid come top/bot come mid and make plays, 5v5 teamfights as well, the "counters" shouldn't really matter at all if you just play it well right? I honestly think my biggest problem is the massive amount of theorycrafting people use to justify things, and then through my direct experience i find it to be absolutely untrue. But then again, I am at 1.1k elo, and shit is fucking nasty down there. The most important thing imo is to realise that soloQ has nothing to do with tournament games. As others have said yes counters are very real but only if 2 people of equal skill meet. Why do people keep saying this, its total bullshit. I'll confidently lane my kassadin vs a karthus at 2k, wheras I'd get my ass pounded playing my Xerath vs their Ahri. counterpicking clearly has a huge effect even if one player is far better than the other, they might win with a countered champ but they might have to be like 4x as good as me.
You'd win a 1v1. Play a real game at 2k when junglers are out to get you and suddenly you could end up feeding fb to a jungler and karthus might have a better sense of jungler timing gank sense and creep control and when you die once or twice he just keeps clearing a wave from long distance with q and then sitting there holding a cs lead with a global ult.
Not saying this is guaranteed to happen but matchup isn't everything because creep control and the relation to that and junglers is at least as important as matchup and flat 1v1 skill.
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On May 12 2012 01:59 wussleeQ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 01:46 Alaric wrote:That's an antimage design.  Now imagine two Veigar ducking it out... Not a fun matchup. Whoever gets caught in the stun dies. Or really, whoever gets ulti'd dies lol. (Unless of course the other veigar gets some mr or BV to survive the initial ulti but he still won't survive a full combo most of the time).
With enough AP they'd just ult eachother and both die.
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Yeah TF vs Leblanc is one of the few matches Leblanc doesn't instawin.
I feel theres a certain extent to which counters matter. I FP'd Kat and stomped every game on mu smurf until about 1800 Elo. Now I usually have to ask to trade because I'm just not good enough to beat a kass/leblanc unless I'm much higher Elo.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 12 2012 02:14 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 01:59 wussleeQ wrote:On May 12 2012 01:46 Alaric wrote:That's an antimage design. Now imagine two Veigar ducking it out... Not a fun matchup. Whoever gets caught in the stun dies. Or really, whoever gets ulti'd dies lol. (Unless of course the other veigar gets some mr or BV to survive the initial ulti but he still won't survive a full combo most of the time). With enough AP they'd just ult eachother and both die.
Or one of them just buys Zhonya's+QSS and always just uses Zhonya's to disjoin the ult projectile.
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On May 12 2012 00:21 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 00:10 Gorsameth wrote:On May 11 2012 23:59 N3rV[Green] wrote:On May 11 2012 23:46 zulu_nation8 wrote:
90% of the time player with higher skill wins lane, some MUs are harder than others but there are way less hard counters than people think. Thank you all, mostly just looking for some sanity in the chaos that is people playing this game, but this is what I've stood by ever since my DotA days. I mean I do understand that some matchups are just really really hard, but it still won't make your champ useless ya know? The idea of counters seems to be focused on the laning phase, and most of the time it's between the mid/top laners. But the game is NEVER a 1v1, no matter what. Having your jungler come camp a hard lane to help you out, having mid come top/bot come mid and make plays, 5v5 teamfights as well, the "counters" shouldn't really matter at all if you just play it well right? I honestly think my biggest problem is the massive amount of theorycrafting people use to justify things, and then through my direct experience i find it to be absolutely untrue. But then again, I am at 1.1k elo, and shit is fucking nasty down there. The most important thing imo is to realise that soloQ has nothing to do with tournament games. As others have said yes counters are very real but only if 2 people of equal skill meet. Why do people keep saying this, its total bullshit. I'll confidently lane my kassadin vs a karthus at 2k, wheras I'd get my ass pounded playing my Xerath vs their Ahri. counterpicking clearly has a huge effect even if one player is far better than the other, they might win with a countered champ but they might have to be like 4x as good as me.
what elo are you ? i'm a 2200 karth and if you're ~1800 or less i'm quite sure i can win the lane against you. That doesn't necessary mean I will kill you but i'll prolly outfarm you and not die plus give ults to my other lanes. Sure counters exist but skill is still a huge factor.
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On May 12 2012 00:44 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 00:40 Two_DoWn wrote:
Try running against smash top. Even if he gives you an unfavorable matchup, he will still beat you, and likely badly. I'm sure he would, my top is pretty bad, but I bet he would agree that he would have a much harder/easier time in some MU's than others.
Right, but that's not what you're saying. You'd be surprised the type of shit you can pull off vs. vastly inferior competition. I've even stomped Malphites in the nuts with Pantheon before.
On May 12 2012 00:58 MooMooMugi wrote:
How to beat Smash: Play Vladmir against his Teemo
I lost that lane to two things:
1. You guys making me check your blue, which cost me my flash
2. Udyr camping my BALLS off.
$10 MM, my Teemo, your Vlad, LET'S DO THIS MUGI!
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I'm glad to see that TL has gotten back into 1v1 challenges to prove points. 
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I cordially dodge your challenge, your Teemo would Smash my Vlad into Gizmos
My Vlad is BADDDDDDDDD
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On May 12 2012 02:38 overt wrote:I'm glad to see that TL has gotten back into 1v1 challenges to prove points.
I should run a weekly show where we take all these arguments into 1v1 showmatches with livebetting.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 12 2012 02:38 overt wrote:I'm glad to see that TL has gotten back into 1v1 challenges to prove points.
There's not enough 1v1 play in Western LoL anyway.
Realistically there's a lot that can be accomplished if top competitive players/teams practiced individual lane matchups like this more frequently rather than playing solo queue games. Consider an average solo queue game that takes ~40 minutes to play out. You get to play out one 1v1 matchup once, and it's potentially not even against a good player. Contrast this with, say, Voyboy practicing 1v1s against Dyrus. They could have played out the first 5 minutes of the game 20 times in the time that it takes for them to have 3 solo queue games. Within a day they could have multiple matchups learned in such detail that they know exactly what they're doing on every creep wave and every level.
This sort of thing is quite common among the practice methods for competitive DotA teams (Na'vi players in interviews have mentioned that they will run 2-3 1v1s like this together in the same game, and also practice ganking for one another this way), and I'm fairly certain that Asian LoL teams do this sort of practice as well.
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On May 12 2012 02:42 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 02:38 overt wrote:I'm glad to see that TL has gotten back into 1v1 challenges to prove points. I should run a weekly show where we take all these arguments into 1v1 showmatches with livebetting.
Get Fakesteve and Chill to commentate it. I'd watch it.
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Quoted from the GD thread.
On May 12 2012 01:58 Slayer91 wrote:
Chogath lategame doesn't scale because he has short range. Damn the ap ratios what close range champ is any good lategame. Only long range aps and ad carries are effective.
Chogath has short range and no form of mobiliy enhancement and is an unmissable target and poke damage is very non trivial even to a chogath if you don't have at least a fon.
Not to say chogath is bad but definitely very situational.
This is the kind of post that makes me clueless about how high elo players think. I'm not saying you're wrong about Cho or I don't value your opinion.
Besides the unmissable target point, all the other points also apply to Vladimir (Cho's Q and W have equal or higher range than all of Vlad's spells). Vlad is also often played top, so in both cases it's most likely a double AP comp. Yet, Vlad is a very popular pick lately in competitive play, and I'm sure I've seen him picked early which would be weird for a situationnal pick.
So, why is Vlad scaling so well when Cho isn't?
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On May 12 2012 02:46 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 02:38 overt wrote:I'm glad to see that TL has gotten back into 1v1 challenges to prove points. There's not enough 1v1 play in Western LoL anyway. Realistically there's a lot that can be accomplished if top competitive players/teams practiced individual lane matchups like this more frequently rather than playing solo queue games. Consider an average solo queue game that takes ~40 minutes to play out. You get to play out one 1v1 matchup once, and it's potentially not even against a good player. Contrast this with, say, Voyboy practicing 1v1s against Dyrus. They could have played out the first 5 minutes of the game 20 times in the time that it takes for them to have 3 solo queue games. Within a day they could have multiple matchups learned in such detail that they know exactly what they're doing on every creep wave and every level.
-No jungler presence to worry about.
-Game going on - i.e freezing lane is ALWAYS good
-No practice in teamfighting
I think solo queue is much better practice for a real game. 1v1s are only about 1/2 of the skill of laning and you still miss things like going down to dragon and roaming if they try to freeze that sort of thing.
For some very delicate matchups its a good idea but for your average top lane where its not particularly snowbally either way I think solo queue is much better.
On May 12 2012 02:48 NpG)Explosive wrote:Quoted from the GD thread. Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 01:58 Slayer91 wrote:
Chogath lategame doesn't scale because he has short range. Damn the ap ratios what close range champ is any good lategame. Only long range aps and ad carries are effective.
Chogath has short range and no form of mobiliy enhancement and is an unmissable target and poke damage is very non trivial even to a chogath if you don't have at least a fon.
Not to say chogath is bad but definitely very situational. This is the kind of post that makes me clueless about how high elo players think. I'm not saying you're wrong about Cho or I don't value your opinion. Besides the unmissable target point, all the other points also apply to Vladimir (Cho's Q and W have equal or higher range than all of Vlad's spells). Vlad is also often played top, so in both cases it's most likely a double AP comp. Yet, Vlad is a very popular pick lately in competitive play, and I'm sure I've seen him picked early which would be weird for a situationnal pick. So, why is Vlad scaling so well when Cho isn't?
-Vlad dominates lanes
-Vlad has way way shorter cooldowns
-A team wide damage increase on AOE
-Quick animations and unmissable Q and E
-Scales really well with team healing because of E
-Much smaller target and has troll pool.
Troll pool combined with vlads natural health lets him build pure AP mostly and chogth although gets lots of health makes him big as fuck and easy to hit and no pool so he can be killed instantly. Combine with slow animations which are pretty easy to dodge and LONG ass cooldowns chogaths teamfight damage is vastly smaller so much that they shouldn't even be compared. Chogath is a tank not an ap carry. He also doesn't win lanes.
You might not think pool is that strong but a vlad with zonyas and pool can still alive with just those 2 spells longer than a chogath can and vlad can get his ult off and a q and e at the very least while the only secure damage for cho is a W and maybe a feast on a tank. The optimal is a QWR+ignite on a carry and obviously very strong if you pull that off but it doesn't usually happen.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
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On May 12 2012 02:48 NpG)Explosive wrote:Quoted from the GD thread. Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 01:58 Slayer91 wrote:
Chogath lategame doesn't scale because he has short range. Damn the ap ratios what close range champ is any good lategame. Only long range aps and ad carries are effective.
Chogath has short range and no form of mobiliy enhancement and is an unmissable target and poke damage is very non trivial even to a chogath if you don't have at least a fon.
Not to say chogath is bad but definitely very situational. This is the kind of post that makes me clueless about how high elo players think. I'm not saying you're wrong about Cho or I don't value your opinion. Besides the unmissable target point, all the other points also apply to Vladimir (Cho's Q and W have equal or higher range than all of Vlad's spells). Vlad is also often played top, so in both cases it's most likely a double AP comp. Yet, Vlad is a very popular pick lately in competitive play, and I'm sure I've seen him picked early which would be weird for a situationnal pick. So, why is Vlad scaling so well when Cho isn't?
Because vlad has pool to get him out of pretty much anything, his sustain is his very being and his ult is monsterous since it increases everyones dmg?
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I play cho a lot and i think that cho doesn't scale terribly into the late game, he drops off a bit, but I wouldn't say that his problem is his range, I'd say it's mostly his damage output that goes down.
and as far as poking is concerned, he is as good at poking as most tanks are...his rupture has a pretty good range, and does enough damage to kill minions for healing on his passive.
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I don't get the "Cho is low range" thing. To be most effective, it helps to hit them with ruptures when you're close, but the range on his bread and butter spells is at the higher end, so he's hardly low range, with the exception his e and his ult. I don't really see why that's a problem though, given if you get close to feast, that generally means you nailed someone out of position and are about to instagib them.
I think it's two things.
1. People suck at hitting ruptures.
2. They don't build him properly. A lot of different crap works with Cho, but not all of it works late in the game. If you build pure tank, of course your damage is going to suck and your cooldowns are going to feel like forever.
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The except of half his skills and a skillshot that can be dodged by anyone with good reaction time?
W can be hit reliably, but still has a long ass animation, the rest, meh.
Watch what a jarvan or olaf or vlad these days does in teamfights in the korean league games, cho just can't compare that, he's too immobile and has long cds. He's like a sitting duck. He's great in a comp which can lock someone down for ruptures because he's very tanky and has good base damage and CC but you can't stick him anywhere and it has to be a really good cho player and a really good comp with cho.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 12 2012 02:49 Slayer91 wrote:
-No jungler presence to worry about.
-Game going on - i.e freezing lane is ALWAYS good
-No practice in teamfighting
I think solo queue is much better practice for a real game. 1v1s are only about 1/2 of the skill of laning and you still miss things like going down to dragon and roaming if they try to freeze that sort of thing.
For some very delicate matchups its a good idea but for your average top lane where its not particularly snowbally either way I think solo queue is much better.
Of course it's not 100% indicative of a real game. Nobody is stupid enough to think that.
Have you played any competitive sport? Drilling WORKS. EVERY sport has practice regimens centered around simple drills that train specific aspects of play. Isolating practice points around specific aspects of the game lets you focus on problems related to that aspect of the game, and do so in a time-efficient manner because drills let you practice those techniques 10 times more quickly than playing complete games. You don't work on your 3-pointers in Basketball just by playing pickup games and hoping to see scenarios that are relevant. You drill your 3-pointer over and over until you've mastered the drill, THEN you adapt it to a real game. Shooting 3-pointers with nobody blocking you is obviously not 100% indicative of a real game, but it's important to hone down the simple scenario first, and adapt it to a real game.
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EPT
