EPT[Patch 1.0.0.138: Hecarim] General Discussion - Page 96
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
On April 26 2012 02:37 Slusher wrote: wota still worth the money on a large number of champions, and chalice is irrelevant what aps can go top has always been decided by mobility/durability I honestly think Haunting Guise is the only item change that makes me think of making changes to some builds. Sure you'd still build wota on the champions you build wota on, but I'm saying the whole double-wota composition is highly nerfed because you're essentially down 400gold on two separate champions, so that you wouldn't want to go for that kind of teamcomp in the first place....maybe. As for the second comment, that makes no sense because you missed the point. There are several caster champions that could go top that uses mana but the main point is that now you can actually use it in combination with another hero mid that is also semi mana-reliant like orianna without having to worry about sharing blue as much, which opens up team compositions a lot more. | ||
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Goshawk.
United Kingdom5338 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On April 26 2012 03:44 Juicyfruit wrote: Sure you'd still build wota on the champions you build wota on, but I'm saying the whole double-wota composition is highly nerfed because you're essentially down 400gold on two separate champions, so that you wouldn't want to go for that kind of teamcomp in the first place....maybe. As for the second comment, that makes no sense because you missed the point. There are several caster champions that could go top that uses mana but the main point is that now you can actually use it in combination with another hero mid that is also semi mana-reliant like orianna without having to worry about sharing blue as much, which opens up team compositions a lot more. I didn't misunderstand you, double wota comp is good enough to warrent the extra gold. mana isn't the limiting factor on ap top, chalice won't change this. Hell is Athene's really even a laneing phase item? even for the champions we've all agreed would buy it? look at the AP champions people currently use top Swain (tanky + nevermove + already plays top as mana heavy champ) Kennen (has a dash) Rumble (has a dash + shield) Ryze (tanky) Ahri (ult) Vlad (pool) Fizz (trickster) Singed/Naut? not sure if this counts if you want to present counter arguments to these opinions thats fine but to say I didn't understand what you meant is untrue. | ||
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MooMooMugi
United States10531 Posts
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shrinkmaster
Germany947 Posts
couldnt watch it, because i had some work to do. heard something about wickd and snoopeh arguing again? | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On April 26 2012 03:52 Goshawk. wrote: Alex Ich playing Kass on 4PL stream against MYM who have anivia and ali bot lane. Genja with 2 dblades, a pd and a chalice on ashe. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
It's not so much that mana is the limiting factor in laning, since you can work around that. The main issue is whether your team can really properly manage with only 1 blue buff for two casters throughout the game, and whether it's even worth the effort. Given how strong dota-wota was, it became somewhat of a moot point just to have a manaless AP hero top because they tend to be good there in the first place and you don't have to deal with the mana issue. Take away the super efficiency of wota, and with chalice being a very strong laning item mid now, and suddenly you open up more possibilities on how you can play top-lane. | ||
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MooMooMugi
United States10531 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On April 26 2012 04:07 Juicyfruit wrote: Double wota is not strong enough of a teamcomp that you can eat an 800gold loss and not at least flinch. It's not so much that mana is the limiting factor in laning, since you can work around that. The main issue is whether your team can really properly manage with only 1 blue buff for two casters throughout the game, and whether it's even worth the effort. Given how strong dota-wota was, it became somewhat of a moot point just to have a manaless AP hero top because they tend to be good there in the first place and you don't have to deal with the mana issue. Take away the super efficiency of wota, and with chalice being a very strong laning item mid now, and suddenly you open up more possibilities on how you can play top-lane. To be fair, Vlad and Kennen are probably the two most played AP tops, and neither uses mana. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
to which the best counter argument I can think of would be why are Fizz/Ahri/Ryze/Swain top more common than Morg top? she can push for a lot less mana. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On April 26 2012 04:16 Slusher wrote: that is more or less part of his argument. to which the best counter argument I can think of would be why are Fizz/Ahri/Ryze/Swain top more common than Morg top? she can push for a lot less mana. Because all 4 are far more punishing when faced with melee champions. Morg cant punish jack shit. And Id rather have a free farm Tanky DPS than a free farm morg coming out of top because of how easy it is to scale defense, not to mention that the difference between mid and top farm for morg is negligible (pretty close to 100% anyway) whereas a top who free farmed vs one who had to deal with a hard lane are 2 very different things. | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
On April 26 2012 04:02 MooMooMugi wrote: Ken, Rumble, and Vlad are kings of AP top because they are built bruiser like in no way are kennen, rumble or vlad built as bruisers like wtf they all pretty much build straight ap, you might catch an abyssal on kennen or rumble | ||
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MooMooMugi
United States10531 Posts
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EchelonTee
United States5262 Posts
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Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
On April 26 2012 04:21 gtrsrs wrote: in no way are kennen, rumble or vlad built as bruisers like wtf they all pretty much build straight ap, you might catch an abyssal on kennen or rumble It's the built in escapes they have, and don't use mana that makes them so good. You can have the lane warded, and act like its not because of how good their escapes are. By not needing mana all they need to do is keep it off cd, and they're not going to get caught. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On April 26 2012 04:20 Two_DoWn wrote: Because all 4 are far more punishing when faced with melee champions. Morg cant punish jack shit. And Id rather have a free farm Tanky DPS than a free farm morg coming out of top because of how easy it is to scale defense, not to mention that the difference between mid and top farm for morg is negligible (pretty close to 100% anyway) whereas a top who free farmed vs one who had to deal with a hard lane are 2 very different things. Pushing top doesn't work as well as pushing mid b/c top doesn't gank much neways, and AD champs can LH at tower better? | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Kaniol
Poland5551 Posts
On April 26 2012 03:05 Requizen wrote: Huh, these 4PL casters aren't as terrible as some of the others out there. And they spell "cz" in "Czaru" properly, wow i'm VERY impressed! | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 26 2012 04:32 cLutZ wrote: Pushing top doesn't work as well as pushing mid b/c top doesn't gank much neways, and AD champs can LH at tower better? Ganking isn't the only way to take advantage of superior creep control. | ||
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