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On April 19 2012 07:12 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 07:10 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 19 2012 06:59 petered wrote:
I debated for a while how to respond to a lot of the dumb things stated about the champion design in the last few pages but in the end it will be a fairly pointless argument, and Pargnage already summed up my thoughts pretty well.
That being said, here are a couple thoughts that I had about stuff I read earlier that I am not going to look up to quote directly:
- I am fairly confident the point of champ spotlights is NOT to shoehorn a champion into a certain role, but to give new players a baseline idea of how to make use of the kit. Riot is extremely noob oriented so they do a lot of stuff that isn't meant for people who frequent this forum. This doesn't mean Riot always makes role specific champs (naut is not necessarily a jungler or top or support, for example).
- Someone grouped ahri, brand, and ziggs as ap nukers with 4 damaging abilities. Ok seriously? Go play all three champsions. It feels almost nothing alike. also ahri and ziggs both have a non damage centric skill (ahri's charm and ziggs jump explosion thing). In fact, having 4 pure damage non steroid abilities IS pretty distinctive.
They get put in a similar role but someone who likes ahri won't necessarily like ziggs and vice versa. I don't see how this is bad design or slapping kits together based on a role
- While I certainly agree there are some newer champs with bland kits, how can you ignore champs like riven, orianna, and lulu who have very distintive playstyles/abilities and are quite unique amongst all MOBAs? At least give Riot credit for champs done well in addition to criticism for champs done poorly. There is no need to generalize every criticism into an absolute. 4 damage abilities, as it has been implemented by Riot, is a problem because they have proven to be incredibly binary from a balance standpoint. Sure, they all feel different. But it does not change the fact that this limitation makes them very hard to balance, and for no reason. Ziggs and Ahri dont need to damage with their utility spells. The only reason that they DO is because Riot has it in their heads that ap nukers need to have TONS AND TONS of damage from EVERYWHERE. Which makes it VERY hard to put them in the right place because how do you decide where their power comes from if it comes from everywhere. Riven is terrible design. Absolutely horrid. Lulu is overcooked from a kit standpoint, especially with her q. They tried to make her the perfect support, only riot has proven, yet again, that they dont actually know how support works. Whats terrible about rivens design?
The decision to go with a low CD kit that has absolutely no punishment for using spells because she has no resource system. It gives her way more power than she actually needs (setting aside her broken ass ratios).
As it was explained to me (I had a design interview with Xyph and asked him about her), Riven used to have mana but they decided that it was too constricting and that top laners all have fake mana costs anyway (which I dont agree with). But the idea that using mana was too constricting because she was so dependent on her combo is just beyond silly to me. The whole point of a resource is to set up an opportunity cost.
For example, I think Riven would be a MUCH better champion if she had a mana bar that enabled her to run through a full q-w-e combo 2-3 times. Something THAT simple, even with her currently broken ratios, would make her a much more manageable top laner and reward skill much more.
Oh, and shields that scale with ad on a glass cannon are really really stupid.
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On April 19 2012 07:09 daemir wrote:
I don't really follow Riot's design with Sejuani and Nautilus, former being like in every way inferior to the latter at the same role while being extremely similar in kits. Xerath, Ziggs pretty meh as well. Viktor has his issues with range and the wasted item slot.
I haven't been able to play Seju yet (I want to quite badly) but given what I've seen I think if you think they are similar then you don't really know enough about tanks to understand the differences.
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On April 19 2012 07:20 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 07:12 arb wrote:On April 19 2012 07:10 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 19 2012 06:59 petered wrote:
I debated for a while how to respond to a lot of the dumb things stated about the champion design in the last few pages but in the end it will be a fairly pointless argument, and Pargnage already summed up my thoughts pretty well.
That being said, here are a couple thoughts that I had about stuff I read earlier that I am not going to look up to quote directly:
- I am fairly confident the point of champ spotlights is NOT to shoehorn a champion into a certain role, but to give new players a baseline idea of how to make use of the kit. Riot is extremely noob oriented so they do a lot of stuff that isn't meant for people who frequent this forum. This doesn't mean Riot always makes role specific champs (naut is not necessarily a jungler or top or support, for example).
- Someone grouped ahri, brand, and ziggs as ap nukers with 4 damaging abilities. Ok seriously? Go play all three champsions. It feels almost nothing alike. also ahri and ziggs both have a non damage centric skill (ahri's charm and ziggs jump explosion thing). In fact, having 4 pure damage non steroid abilities IS pretty distinctive.
They get put in a similar role but someone who likes ahri won't necessarily like ziggs and vice versa. I don't see how this is bad design or slapping kits together based on a role
- While I certainly agree there are some newer champs with bland kits, how can you ignore champs like riven, orianna, and lulu who have very distintive playstyles/abilities and are quite unique amongst all MOBAs? At least give Riot credit for champs done well in addition to criticism for champs done poorly. There is no need to generalize every criticism into an absolute. 4 damage abilities, as it has been implemented by Riot, is a problem because they have proven to be incredibly binary from a balance standpoint. Sure, they all feel different. But it does not change the fact that this limitation makes them very hard to balance, and for no reason. Ziggs and Ahri dont need to damage with their utility spells. The only reason that they DO is because Riot has it in their heads that ap nukers need to have TONS AND TONS of damage from EVERYWHERE. Which makes it VERY hard to put them in the right place because how do you decide where their power comes from if it comes from everywhere. Riven is terrible design. Absolutely horrid. Lulu is overcooked from a kit standpoint, especially with her q. They tried to make her the perfect support, only riot has proven, yet again, that they dont actually know how support works. Whats terrible about rivens design? The decision to go with a low CD kit that has absolutely no punishment for using spells because she has no resource system. It gives her way more power than she actually needs (setting aside her broken ass ratios). As it was explained to me (I had a design interview with Xyph and asked him about her), Riven used to have mana but they decided that it was too constricting and that top laners all have fake mana costs anyway (which I dont agree with). But the idea that using mana was too constricting because she was so dependent on her combo is just beyond silly to me. The whole point of a resource is to set up an opportunity cost. For example, I think Riven would be a MUCH better champion if she had a mana bar that enabled her to run through a full q-w-e combo 2-3 times. Something THAT simple, even with her currently broken ratios, would make her a much more manageable top laner and reward skill much more. Oh, and shields that scale with ad on a glass cannon are really really stupid.
If riven could use q-w-e 2-3 times before being oom, she would be absolutely horrible both in lane and in jungle. I do agree champions that don't have any downside OR resource for using spells is stupid, but that would be too big of a nerf to riven.
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Sej is terrible because her kit was so good that riot got scared of it and nerfed it to the ground.
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On April 19 2012 07:20 Two_DoWn wrote:
Riven used to have mana but they decided that it was too constricting and that top laners all have fake mana costs anyway (which I dont agree with).
WW, Irelia, Panthéon, Swain...
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On April 19 2012 07:28 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 07:20 Two_DoWn wrote:
Riven used to have mana but they decided that it was too constricting and that top laners all have fake mana costs anyway (which I dont agree with). WW, Irelia, Panthéon, Swain...
Swain doesnt have mana costs.
The rest do. Its very easy to run oom on any of them.
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On April 19 2012 07:23 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 07:09 daemir wrote:
I don't really follow Riot's design with Sejuani and Nautilus, former being like in every way inferior to the latter at the same role while being extremely similar in kits. Xerath, Ziggs pretty meh as well. Viktor has his issues with range and the wasted item slot. I haven't been able to play Seju yet (I want to quite badly) but given what I've seen I think if you think they are similar then you don't really know enough about tanks to understand the differences.
Well, neither of them really have damage, they have slows/roots/stuns so they're obviously very disruptive, but I Sejuani draws like the short end on every front vs Naut. Okay, her ult _migh_ be more devastating if you can hit the backline, but since it detonates on impact at anything, you aren't gonna hit the backline. Naut's ult goes through the frontline, short CCs them and then CCs the target. Or they flash away million miles and their frontline gets melted. And Seju's ult cd is like Amumu-style long.
I just like, don't see why you'd ever pick Sejuani over Naut.
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On April 19 2012 07:31 daemir wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 07:23 Southlight wrote:On April 19 2012 07:09 daemir wrote:
I don't really follow Riot's design with Sejuani and Nautilus, former being like in every way inferior to the latter at the same role while being extremely similar in kits. Xerath, Ziggs pretty meh as well. Viktor has his issues with range and the wasted item slot. I haven't been able to play Seju yet (I want to quite badly) but given what I've seen I think if you think they are similar then you don't really know enough about tanks to understand the differences. neither of them really have damage
Have you played nautilus? His early/mid game damage is really scary. Like one combo 100-0 people mid. His kit doesn't really allow him to build heavy damage, so it scales off quite badly into the late game though.
Edit: messed up the quotes.
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On April 19 2012 07:10 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 06:59 petered wrote:
I debated for a while how to respond to a lot of the dumb things stated about the champion design in the last few pages but in the end it will be a fairly pointless argument, and Pargnage already summed up my thoughts pretty well.
That being said, here are a couple thoughts that I had about stuff I read earlier that I am not going to look up to quote directly:
- I am fairly confident the point of champ spotlights is NOT to shoehorn a champion into a certain role, but to give new players a baseline idea of how to make use of the kit. Riot is extremely noob oriented so they do a lot of stuff that isn't meant for people who frequent this forum. This doesn't mean Riot always makes role specific champs (naut is not necessarily a jungler or top or support, for example).
- Someone grouped ahri, brand, and ziggs as ap nukers with 4 damaging abilities. Ok seriously? Go play all three champsions. It feels almost nothing alike. also ahri and ziggs both have a non damage centric skill (ahri's charm and ziggs jump explosion thing). In fact, having 4 pure damage non steroid abilities IS pretty distinctive.
They get put in a similar role but someone who likes ahri won't necessarily like ziggs and vice versa. I don't see how this is bad design or slapping kits together based on a role
- While I certainly agree there are some newer champs with bland kits, how can you ignore champs like riven, orianna, and lulu who have very distintive playstyles/abilities and are quite unique amongst all MOBAs? At least give Riot credit for champs done well in addition to criticism for champs done poorly. There is no need to generalize every criticism into an absolute. 4 damage abilities, as it has been implemented by Riot, is a problem because they have proven to be incredibly binary from a balance standpoint. Sure, they all feel different. But it does not change the fact that this limitation makes them very hard to balance, and for no reason. Ziggs and Ahri dont need to damage with their utility spells. The only reason that they DO is because Riot has it in their heads that ap nukers need to have TONS AND TONS of damage from EVERYWHERE. Which makes it VERY hard to put them in the right place because how do you decide where their power comes from if it comes from everywhere. Riven is terrible design. Absolutely horrid. Lulu is overcooked from a kit standpoint, especially with her q. They tried to make her the perfect support, only riot has proven, yet again, that they dont actually know how support works.
Four damage abilities champions have been anything but binary. In fact, most of the problem cases (e.g. Vlad, Ziggs) were the result of abusive mechanics (e.g. ridiculous diving/sustain, ridiculous zoning).
The mid lane, where the majority of these "impossible to balance" champions reside, is commonly regarded as the most balanced lane in the game. One highly competitive pick for that lane only has two on-command damage spells. Champions with four damage abilities are simply not as big a problem as you think they are.
On April 19 2012 07:23 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 07:09 daemir wrote:
I don't really follow Riot's design with Sejuani and Nautilus, former being like in every way inferior to the latter at the same role while being extremely similar in kits. Xerath, Ziggs pretty meh as well. Viktor has his issues with range and the wasted item slot. I haven't been able to play Seju yet (I want to quite badly) but given what I've seen I think if you think they are similar then you don't really know enough about tanks to understand the differences.
As tanks the two are fairly different, from application of abilities to itemization choices. As junglers, however, Sejuani is strictly inferior to Nautilus in almost every conceivable way.
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On April 19 2012 07:31 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 07:28 Alaric wrote:On April 19 2012 07:20 Two_DoWn wrote:
Riven used to have mana but they decided that it was too constricting and that top laners all have fake mana costs anyway (which I dont agree with). WW, Irelia, Panthéon, Swain... Swain doesnt have mana costs. The rest do. Its very easy to run oom on any of them.
That's what I meant. And if Swain is forced to spam (camped or something), he'll have to manage his mana too, even tho his passive helps. But even then, the fact is that his passive is dedicated to his ressource, w/o giving him bonuses like Renekton's or Rumble's do.
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On April 19 2012 07:31 daemir wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 07:23 Southlight wrote:On April 19 2012 07:09 daemir wrote:
I don't really follow Riot's design with Sejuani and Nautilus, former being like in every way inferior to the latter at the same role while being extremely similar in kits. Xerath, Ziggs pretty meh as well. Viktor has his issues with range and the wasted item slot. I haven't been able to play Seju yet (I want to quite badly) but given what I've seen I think if you think they are similar then you don't really know enough about tanks to understand the differences. Well, neither of them really have damage, they have slows/roots/stuns so they're obviously very disruptive, but I Sejuani draws like the short end on every front vs Naut. Okay, her ult _migh_ be more devastating if you can hit the backline, but since it detonates on impact at anything, you aren't gonna hit the backline. Naut's ult goes through the frontline, short CCs them and then CCs the target. Or they flash away million miles and their frontline gets melted. And Seju's ult cd is like Amumu-style long. I just like, don't see why you'd ever pick Sejuani over Naut.
Are you kidding me?
Nautilus does a crapload of damage early-mid game. Especially if you take him top lane and build him Chu8 style. Sejuani has great damage output lategame. The scaling on her W is pretty ridiculous. Their ultis are also nothing alike. Naut ulti is a guaranteed knockup on 1 champion, maybe more if you're lucky. Sejuani's ulti has a gigantic hitbox and even if you don't directly tag your intended target, the splash on that thing is so huge you'll be almost guaranteed to stun 3+ people on the enemy team for at least 1 second, not to mention tagging them with your passive so you can slow them to a stop with your E. With regards to ganking, both of them have a gapcloser/snare, but Sejuani's is arguably much easier to land seeing how the hitbox on her Q is a pretty big area around her model. Once you tag something with your passive, as long as you have lvl 2+ E they're basically permaslowed to a stop for a really long time. Naut's cc is a 1 second snare. Not to mention once Sejuani hits 6 she can gank any lane successfully with her 1.2k range ulti.
Literally the ONLY reason why Sejuani isn't played is because her early game is complete trash. She doesn't have the sustain or damage to lane properly and her jungle speed for the first few levels is horrendously slow. If Riot buffs her early game jungle speed she'll be top tier.
EDIT: Also, the cooldown on Sej's ulti is grossly overexaggerated. Amumu's ulti cd goes from 170 to 130 at lvl 3. Sej's ulti cd is 100 at lvl 3. The way I built her (with shurelias and cd defensive masteries) I easily have ~30-40% cdr so the ulti is up every minute or so.
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Hmmm I am on EUNE region and I lost ability to play Ranked.. some kind of ban? I didn't receive any warning or mail from Riot. edit: nevermind, people who aint blind see server announcement about patch and downtime. :D
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On April 19 2012 07:20 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 07:12 arb wrote:On April 19 2012 07:10 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 19 2012 06:59 petered wrote:
I debated for a while how to respond to a lot of the dumb things stated about the champion design in the last few pages but in the end it will be a fairly pointless argument, and Pargnage already summed up my thoughts pretty well.
That being said, here are a couple thoughts that I had about stuff I read earlier that I am not going to look up to quote directly:
- I am fairly confident the point of champ spotlights is NOT to shoehorn a champion into a certain role, but to give new players a baseline idea of how to make use of the kit. Riot is extremely noob oriented so they do a lot of stuff that isn't meant for people who frequent this forum. This doesn't mean Riot always makes role specific champs (naut is not necessarily a jungler or top or support, for example).
- Someone grouped ahri, brand, and ziggs as ap nukers with 4 damaging abilities. Ok seriously? Go play all three champsions. It feels almost nothing alike. also ahri and ziggs both have a non damage centric skill (ahri's charm and ziggs jump explosion thing). In fact, having 4 pure damage non steroid abilities IS pretty distinctive.
They get put in a similar role but someone who likes ahri won't necessarily like ziggs and vice versa. I don't see how this is bad design or slapping kits together based on a role
- While I certainly agree there are some newer champs with bland kits, how can you ignore champs like riven, orianna, and lulu who have very distintive playstyles/abilities and are quite unique amongst all MOBAs? At least give Riot credit for champs done well in addition to criticism for champs done poorly. There is no need to generalize every criticism into an absolute. 4 damage abilities, as it has been implemented by Riot, is a problem because they have proven to be incredibly binary from a balance standpoint. Sure, they all feel different. But it does not change the fact that this limitation makes them very hard to balance, and for no reason. Ziggs and Ahri dont need to damage with their utility spells. The only reason that they DO is because Riot has it in their heads that ap nukers need to have TONS AND TONS of damage from EVERYWHERE. Which makes it VERY hard to put them in the right place because how do you decide where their power comes from if it comes from everywhere. Riven is terrible design. Absolutely horrid. Lulu is overcooked from a kit standpoint, especially with her q. They tried to make her the perfect support, only riot has proven, yet again, that they dont actually know how support works. Whats terrible about rivens design? The decision to go with a low CD kit that has absolutely no punishment for using spells because she has no resource system. It gives her way more power than she actually needs (setting aside her broken ass ratios). As it was explained to me (I had a design interview with Xyph and asked him about her), Riven used to have mana but they decided that it was too constricting and that top laners all have fake mana costs anyway (which I dont agree with). But the idea that using mana was too constricting because she was so dependent on her combo is just beyond silly to me. The whole point of a resource is to set up an opportunity cost. For example, I think Riven would be a MUCH better champion if she had a mana bar that enabled her to run through a full q-w-e combo 2-3 times. Something THAT simple, even with her currently broken ratios, would make her a much more manageable top laner and reward skill much more. Oh, and shields that scale with ad on a glass cannon are really really stupid.
do me a favor and ask him why mana exists in dominion for casters/all the items favor physical? where is an absurd +mana/regen item to let people choose mana-dependent heroes in dominion and not be shitty after 1 fight? =/
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My main complaint is that it feels like for the recent glut of bruisers (skarner, shyv, voli, hecarim, sejuani in particular) there's a common pool of melee-ish range skills that are just being combined differently, creating a real issue of staleness in the game, as one of these identikit champions is always gonna rise above the others. Say what you will about Riven's balance (a debatable point, but one not really relevant to the discussion), but I don't see how you can say she's "terrible from a design standpoint" when she creates interesting and original gameplay in a way none of these champions really have. My mind is kinda blown that three relatively recent champions with similar roles now have shyvana's W with slightly different particles attached.
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On April 19 2012 08:11 Node wrote:
My main complaint is that it feels like for the recent glut of bruisers (skarner, shyv, voli, hecarim, sejuani in particular) there's a common pool of melee-ish range skills that are just being combined differently, creating a real issue of staleness in the game, as one of these identikit champions is always gonna rise above the others. Say what you will about Riven's balance (a debatable point, but one not really relevant to the discussion), but I don't see how you can say she's "terrible from a design standpoint" when she creates interesting and original gameplay in a way none of these champions really have. My mind is kinda blown that three relatively recent champions with similar roles now have shyvana's W with slightly different particles attached.
all of which are inferior to shyvanas really dumb
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guys, all this justified bitterness makes me want to make a thread about improvising on champion designs that seem bland or out of place.
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On April 19 2012 07:10 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 06:59 petered wrote:
I debated for a while how to respond to a lot of the dumb things stated about the champion design in the last few pages but in the end it will be a fairly pointless argument, and Pargnage already summed up my thoughts pretty well.
That being said, here are a couple thoughts that I had about stuff I read earlier that I am not going to look up to quote directly:
- I am fairly confident the point of champ spotlights is NOT to shoehorn a champion into a certain role, but to give new players a baseline idea of how to make use of the kit. Riot is extremely noob oriented so they do a lot of stuff that isn't meant for people who frequent this forum. This doesn't mean Riot always makes role specific champs (naut is not necessarily a jungler or top or support, for example).
- Someone grouped ahri, brand, and ziggs as ap nukers with 4 damaging abilities. Ok seriously? Go play all three champsions. It feels almost nothing alike. also ahri and ziggs both have a non damage centric skill (ahri's charm and ziggs jump explosion thing). In fact, having 4 pure damage non steroid abilities IS pretty distinctive.
They get put in a similar role but someone who likes ahri won't necessarily like ziggs and vice versa. I don't see how this is bad design or slapping kits together based on a role
- While I certainly agree there are some newer champs with bland kits, how can you ignore champs like riven, orianna, and lulu who have very distintive playstyles/abilities and are quite unique amongst all MOBAs? At least give Riot credit for champs done well in addition to criticism for champs done poorly. There is no need to generalize every criticism into an absolute. 4 damage abilities, as it has been implemented by Riot, is a problem because they have proven to be incredibly binary from a balance standpoint. Sure, they all feel different. But it does not change the fact that this limitation makes them very hard to balance, and for no reason. Ziggs and Ahri dont need to damage with their utility spells. The only reason that they DO is because Riot has it in their heads that ap nukers need to have TONS AND TONS of damage from EVERYWHERE. Which makes it VERY hard to put them in the right place because how do you decide where their power comes from if it comes from everywhere. Riven is terrible design. Absolutely horrid. Lulu is overcooked from a kit standpoint, especially with her q. They tried to make her the perfect support, only riot has proven, yet again, that they dont actually know how support works.
Incredibly binary from a balance standpoint? The damage on ziggs explosion thing and ahri's charm are very low and have almost nothing to do with the value of the ability. It also has nothing to do with balancing those champions. You could take out the damage on those two abilities and the champs would be almost exactly the same.
Ziggs is hard to balance because he has a near global nuke and great range on all his abilities. Ahri is hard to balance because of how hard she can snowball her lane once she gets a lead due to her ult.
Heck, Annie and Anivia, which you gave as good examples because they have a non damage ability, have been just as hard to balance as those two. Look at their patch history for goodness sake.
"Lulu is overcooked from a design perspective."
- Do you say things that have no meaning on purpose? Because that sentence means absolutely nothing.
"They tried to make her the perfect support"
"because Riot has it in their heads that ap nukers need to have TONS AND TONS of damage from EVERYWHERE"
- Do you state guesses that you have about other's intention as fact? Because I am pretty sure you are making shit up and don't actually know Riot's full thought process.
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On April 19 2012 07:47 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 07:31 daemir wrote:On April 19 2012 07:23 Southlight wrote:On April 19 2012 07:09 daemir wrote:
I don't really follow Riot's design with Sejuani and Nautilus, former being like in every way inferior to the latter at the same role while being extremely similar in kits. Xerath, Ziggs pretty meh as well. Viktor has his issues with range and the wasted item slot. I haven't been able to play Seju yet (I want to quite badly) but given what I've seen I think if you think they are similar then you don't really know enough about tanks to understand the differences. Well, neither of them really have damage, they have slows/roots/stuns so they're obviously very disruptive, but I Sejuani draws like the short end on every front vs Naut. Okay, her ult _migh_ be more devastating if you can hit the backline, but since it detonates on impact at anything, you aren't gonna hit the backline. Naut's ult goes through the frontline, short CCs them and then CCs the target. Or they flash away million miles and their frontline gets melted. And Seju's ult cd is like Amumu-style long. I just like, don't see why you'd ever pick Sejuani over Naut. Are you kidding me? Nautilus does a crapload of damage early-mid game. Especially if you take him top lane and build him Chu8 style. Sejuani has great damage output lategame. The scaling on her W is pretty ridiculous. Their ultis are also nothing alike. Naut ulti is a guaranteed knockup on 1 champion, maybe more if you're lucky. Sejuani's ulti has a gigantic hitbox and even if you don't directly tag your intended target, the splash on that thing is so huge you'll be almost guaranteed to stun 3+ people on the enemy team for at least 1 second, not to mention tagging them with your passive so you can slow them to a stop with your E. With regards to ganking, both of them have a gapcloser/snare, but Sejuani's is arguably much easier to land seeing how the hitbox on her Q is a pretty big area around her model. Once you tag something with your passive, as long as you have lvl 2+ E they're basically permaslowed to a stop for a really long time. Naut's cc is a 1 second snare. Not to mention once Sejuani hits 6 she can gank any lane successfully with her 1.2k range ulti. Literally the ONLY reason why Sejuani isn't played is because her early game is complete trash. She doesn't have the sustain or damage to lane properly and her jungle speed for the first few levels is horrendously slow. If Riot buffs her early game jungle speed she'll be top tier. EDIT: Also, the cooldown on Sej's ulti is grossly overexaggerated. Amumu's ulti cd goes from 170 to 130 at lvl 3. Sej's ulti cd is 100 at lvl 3. The way I built her (with shurelias and cd defensive masteries) I easily have ~30-40% cdr so the ulti is up every minute or so.
Anytime I've seen a Sejuani ult hit more than 2 people, in games or streams, is in a baron fight. Never once have I seen Sejuani get up to a point where her scaling W damage would do anything meaningful later in the game. If we're talking about slowing people around, Sej slows people with her autos, Naut roots them... Not to mention Naut's aoe slow is far easily applied to multiple people, Sej needs passive or ulti debuff on people for E and while on paper it might look pretty, I haven't seen it work well in practice.
I'm talking purely from jungling standpoint, I haven't really seen either of them do lanes, maybe Voyboy played some games as top Naut? Can't even tell for sure, probably wasn't a jaw dropping performance as it hasn't stuck in memory too well.
Just as I'm typing this there's a Sejuani in a game with Scarra and I honestly cannot tell why it was picked instead of Naut.
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I really wish they'd do some 3150>1350 but I'm starting to think that will never happen.
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EPT
