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On April 19 2012 08:59 Node wrote:
Question: Assuming a standard team comp, what are the best / worst champions to have in a level 1 teamfight? Are you basically just looking for strong level 1 aoe? I'm never sure when to encourage / discourage my team from invading as a group and risking an early engagement.
Long range skillshot CCs that can catch people sitting in bush even when they can't see you. The most notorious offenders are: Blitzcrank Grab, Janna Q (though not sure how good it is anymore after the nerf. Before it was amazing. Level huge aoe skillshot hard CC that CCs everyone on the way through) Morgana bind, Lux Bind, Ahri Charm, Anivia Stun, Chogath Q, Swain Snare etc etc. Barring that, any targetted CC works just fine if you're willing to Flash for it and your team can follow up, like Taric stun, Ryze W, TF gold card, Alistar pulv even autoattack based stuff like Leona, Udyr, and Nautilus are better than someone with no low level hard cc like Skarner or Malphite.
The next important thing is usually a high range, high damage aoe spellcaster (preferably something spammable). This includes Ziggs Q, Galio Q, Gragas Q, Karthus Q etc. Having these APs means you've got a ton of damage that can be used to kite and soften up the enemy, unlike Mordekaiser or something.
Certain AD carries are better than others. Ashe is probably the best since she has a giant AOE, respectable damage slow that has pretty great range. Not sure how the others stack up but I'd probably say something like Graves > Cait > Ezreal > Corki > MF > Kog > Trist.
There are also champs who are just generally strong at level 1 like Lee Sin and Pantheon who do well.
Special mention goes out to Eve and Twitch for being able to scout with stealth on invades. They can't do shit themselves but they give an amazing advantage if the rest of their team has CC to initiate with.
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On April 19 2012 09:30 ninjakingcola wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 08:58 Craton wrote:
Riven is bad from a design standpoint because her kit is innately imbalanced. No cost abilities mean there is no thought required to use them. AD scaling on a low CD shield means you can build high damage and still be extremely durable. This further compounds with being able to rush life steal items (since it's optimal to do so anyway), which gives you massive sustain in lane. Two low CD huge mobility abilities let you overextend freely and zone easily. You have too much up side with too little downside and too much margin of error. She doesn't even have skillshots to slightly offset all of that.
If Riven used mana, she'd have to budget when she used her Q and E meaning she'd have to think more than 10 seconds in advance. Wasting shield because you fail to predict incoming damage or blindly charging at someone when they're too far away means that later on there will be a period of weakness while your mana is low. Since she doesn't use mana (or even energy for that matter) she never has to consider beyond the immediate future. If you're looking at champions that you don't have to think to play I'd suggest you look more at champs like WW, Karth, Kennen, Morg, etc. Riven has to know when she can go in, how much damage she can take, and if you build damage you lack resistances so you're vulnerable to focus fire in a really bad way. The point of a mobility champ is that you have to know when it's safe to engage because more than likely you use your mobility to get into the fight and won't have an escape for a period. If you're complaining because you try to 1v1 Riven without understanding what she can do, then I suggest you play her and actually make an attempt to understand the champion.
Great points. Just as a reminder, Riven has ~20% lower basestats than a comparable champion in order to justify her scaling. She also is a pure melee damage champion, if she can´t get close and deal damage she does nothing.
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On April 19 2012 09:01 daemir wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 08:42 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 19 2012 08:16 daemir wrote:On April 19 2012 07:47 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 19 2012 07:31 daemir wrote:On April 19 2012 07:23 Southlight wrote:On April 19 2012 07:09 daemir wrote:
I don't really follow Riot's design with Sejuani and Nautilus, former being like in every way inferior to the latter at the same role while being extremely similar in kits. Xerath, Ziggs pretty meh as well. Viktor has his issues with range and the wasted item slot. I haven't been able to play Seju yet (I want to quite badly) but given what I've seen I think if you think they are similar then you don't really know enough about tanks to understand the differences. Well, neither of them really have damage, they have slows/roots/stuns so they're obviously very disruptive, but I Sejuani draws like the short end on every front vs Naut. Okay, her ult _migh_ be more devastating if you can hit the backline, but since it detonates on impact at anything, you aren't gonna hit the backline. Naut's ult goes through the frontline, short CCs them and then CCs the target. Or they flash away million miles and their frontline gets melted. And Seju's ult cd is like Amumu-style long. I just like, don't see why you'd ever pick Sejuani over Naut. Are you kidding me? Nautilus does a crapload of damage early-mid game. Especially if you take him top lane and build him Chu8 style. Sejuani has great damage output lategame. The scaling on her W is pretty ridiculous. Their ultis are also nothing alike. Naut ulti is a guaranteed knockup on 1 champion, maybe more if you're lucky. Sejuani's ulti has a gigantic hitbox and even if you don't directly tag your intended target, the splash on that thing is so huge you'll be almost guaranteed to stun 3+ people on the enemy team for at least 1 second, not to mention tagging them with your passive so you can slow them to a stop with your E. With regards to ganking, both of them have a gapcloser/snare, but Sejuani's is arguably much easier to land seeing how the hitbox on her Q is a pretty big area around her model. Once you tag something with your passive, as long as you have lvl 2+ E they're basically permaslowed to a stop for a really long time. Naut's cc is a 1 second snare. Not to mention once Sejuani hits 6 she can gank any lane successfully with her 1.2k range ulti. Literally the ONLY reason why Sejuani isn't played is because her early game is complete trash. She doesn't have the sustain or damage to lane properly and her jungle speed for the first few levels is horrendously slow. If Riot buffs her early game jungle speed she'll be top tier. EDIT: Also, the cooldown on Sej's ulti is grossly overexaggerated. Amumu's ulti cd goes from 170 to 130 at lvl 3. Sej's ulti cd is 100 at lvl 3. The way I built her (with shurelias and cd defensive masteries) I easily have ~30-40% cdr so the ulti is up every minute or so. Anytime I've seen a Sejuani ult hit more than 2 people, in games or streams, is in a baron fight. Never once have I seen Sejuani get up to a point where her scaling W damage would do anything meaningful later in the game. If we're talking about slowing people around, Sej slows people with her autos, Naut roots them... Not to mention Naut's aoe slow is far easily applied to multiple people, Sej needs passive or ulti debuff on people for E and while on paper it might look pretty, I haven't seen it work well in practice. I'm talking purely from jungling standpoint, I haven't really seen either of them do lanes, maybe Voyboy played some games as top Naut? Can't even tell for sure, probably wasn't a jaw dropping performance as it hasn't stuck in memory too well. Just as I'm typing this there's a Sejuani in a game with Scarra and I honestly cannot tell why it was picked instead of Naut. How many Sejuanis have you actually seen or played against? Have you yourself ever played Sejuani? Speaking from personal experience from playing her, it's not hard to hit many targets with your ultimate. It's about as difficult as hitting an Ashe arrow. In other words, if you just blindly and randomly throw it out at the enemy team, then yes, you're going to have terrible results. But if you pick your target and use it smartly, it's basically a devastating ranged Amumu ult. For CC, naut has a 1 second snare with an internal 12 second cd, meaning you're only going to get it off once. Other than that, all Naut has is a 2 second diminishing slow. Sej has a 3 70% slow, which is basically slows your target to a stop, along with a permanent 10% slow on anything she hits. In terms of the aoe of the cc, it comes down to how well you can land Sejuani ulti, since it applies her passive and her E hits anything tagged with her passive in a 1000 range aoe. Sejuani can easily keep multiple targets in one place for 4-5 seconds (1-2 second stun from ult, 3 second 70% slow from E). Compare that to Naut, who can only snare for 1 second and 50% diminishing slow for 2 seconds. As far as damage potential goes, it all comes down to how you build them. I'm not saying Sejuani is good or better than Naut. Right now, she's not. Her early game is just too horrible for her to be competitive. But honestly, all Riot needs to do is to buff the numbers on her W's early levels from like 12 dps to ~20 dps and she will be really strong. Her kit has ridiculous amounts of cc and good Sej ults can win games the way good Ashe ults win games. I do not own her so I haven't played her much and not many people seem to play her either. Not many streamers for that matter too. And seems at the end you still agree with me, there's no point really picking her over Naut because she is kinda...trash now. IMO, aside from the numbers, far too much on Sej relies on you actually landing the ult on several people. If you don't, gl snaring more than 1 bruiser with your E in a big fight. Naut's ult is far more reliable and he just needs to lumber in the middle of people or Q in the middle and press E and there you go, team slowed. So, I just don't follow Riot's plan with these 2 champions, released so closely to each other and the latter being clearly superior, in the role I'd say both were meant for (jungle).
I guess you could say a lot of Sej viability relies on hitting the ulti on a lot of people but honestly, if people can hit Ashe arrows well there's no reason why they can't hit Sej ults especially when the Sejuani ult hitbox and aoe is fucking huge.
On April 19 2012 09:14 zodde wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 08:42 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 19 2012 08:16 daemir wrote:On April 19 2012 07:47 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 19 2012 07:31 daemir wrote:On April 19 2012 07:23 Southlight wrote:On April 19 2012 07:09 daemir wrote:
I don't really follow Riot's design with Sejuani and Nautilus, former being like in every way inferior to the latter at the same role while being extremely similar in kits. Xerath, Ziggs pretty meh as well. Viktor has his issues with range and the wasted item slot. I haven't been able to play Seju yet (I want to quite badly) but given what I've seen I think if you think they are similar then you don't really know enough about tanks to understand the differences. Well, neither of them really have damage, they have slows/roots/stuns so they're obviously very disruptive, but I Sejuani draws like the short end on every front vs Naut. Okay, her ult _migh_ be more devastating if you can hit the backline, but since it detonates on impact at anything, you aren't gonna hit the backline. Naut's ult goes through the frontline, short CCs them and then CCs the target. Or they flash away million miles and their frontline gets melted. And Seju's ult cd is like Amumu-style long. I just like, don't see why you'd ever pick Sejuani over Naut. Are you kidding me? Nautilus does a crapload of damage early-mid game. Especially if you take him top lane and build him Chu8 style. Sejuani has great damage output lategame. The scaling on her W is pretty ridiculous. Their ultis are also nothing alike. Naut ulti is a guaranteed knockup on 1 champion, maybe more if you're lucky. Sejuani's ulti has a gigantic hitbox and even if you don't directly tag your intended target, the splash on that thing is so huge you'll be almost guaranteed to stun 3+ people on the enemy team for at least 1 second, not to mention tagging them with your passive so you can slow them to a stop with your E. With regards to ganking, both of them have a gapcloser/snare, but Sejuani's is arguably much easier to land seeing how the hitbox on her Q is a pretty big area around her model. Once you tag something with your passive, as long as you have lvl 2+ E they're basically permaslowed to a stop for a really long time. Naut's cc is a 1 second snare. Not to mention once Sejuani hits 6 she can gank any lane successfully with her 1.2k range ulti. Literally the ONLY reason why Sejuani isn't played is because her early game is complete trash. She doesn't have the sustain or damage to lane properly and her jungle speed for the first few levels is horrendously slow. If Riot buffs her early game jungle speed she'll be top tier. EDIT: Also, the cooldown on Sej's ulti is grossly overexaggerated. Amumu's ulti cd goes from 170 to 130 at lvl 3. Sej's ulti cd is 100 at lvl 3. The way I built her (with shurelias and cd defensive masteries) I easily have ~30-40% cdr so the ulti is up every minute or so. Anytime I've seen a Sejuani ult hit more than 2 people, in games or streams, is in a baron fight. Never once have I seen Sejuani get up to a point where her scaling W damage would do anything meaningful later in the game. If we're talking about slowing people around, Sej slows people with her autos, Naut roots them... Not to mention Naut's aoe slow is far easily applied to multiple people, Sej needs passive or ulti debuff on people for E and while on paper it might look pretty, I haven't seen it work well in practice. I'm talking purely from jungling standpoint, I haven't really seen either of them do lanes, maybe Voyboy played some games as top Naut? Can't even tell for sure, probably wasn't a jaw dropping performance as it hasn't stuck in memory too well. Just as I'm typing this there's a Sejuani in a game with Scarra and I honestly cannot tell why it was picked instead of Naut. How many Sejuanis have you actually seen or played against? Have you yourself ever played Sejuani? Speaking from personal experience from playing her, it's not hard to hit many targets with your ultimate. It's about as difficult as hitting an Ashe arrow. In other words, if you just blindly and randomly throw it out at the enemy team, then yes, you're going to have terrible results. But if you pick your target and use it smartly, it's basically a devastating ranged Amumu ult. For CC, naut has a 1 second snare with an internal 12 second cd, meaning you're only going to get it off once. Other than that, all Naut has is a 2 second diminishing slow. Sej has a 3 70% slow, which is basically slows your target to a stop, along with a permanent 10% slow on anything she hits. In terms of the aoe of the cc, it comes down to how well you can land Sejuani ulti, since it applies her passive and her E hits anything tagged with her passive in a 1000 range aoe. Sejuani can easily keep multiple targets in one place for 4-5 seconds (1-2 second stun from ult, 3 second 70% slow from E). Compare that to Naut, who can only snare for 1 second and 50% diminishing slow for 2 seconds. As far as damage potential goes, it all comes down to how you build them. I'm not saying Sejuani is good or better than Naut. Right now, she's not. Her early game is just too horrible for her to be competitive. But honestly, all Riot needs to do is to buff the numbers on her W's early levels from like 12 dps to ~20 dps and she will be really strong. Her kit has ridiculous amounts of cc and good Sej ults can win games the way good Ashe ults win games. Naut has a 1 second root every 12 seconds on every target. It's like bear stance, the cd is just for a single target. Also his hook is a short stun and displacement cc. Combined with his point and click, long range ult, his kit is pretty insane for CCing people.
I meant once per person. And yes, I agree that Naut is good for CC'ing people. I was just arguing that Sejuani is just as good, if not better, at ccing people.
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Sejuani has definetly the most CC overall. Naut is better at locking down a single person in the short term but Sej dishes out slows to the whole team unlike anyone else. It´s admitedly difficult to decide in which cases either one is preferable but there isn´t one just being superior to the other.
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On April 19 2012 09:45 Unentschieden wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 09:30 ninjakingcola wrote:On April 19 2012 08:58 Craton wrote:
Riven is bad from a design standpoint because her kit is innately imbalanced. No cost abilities mean there is no thought required to use them. AD scaling on a low CD shield means you can build high damage and still be extremely durable. This further compounds with being able to rush life steal items (since it's optimal to do so anyway), which gives you massive sustain in lane. Two low CD huge mobility abilities let you overextend freely and zone easily. You have too much up side with too little downside and too much margin of error. She doesn't even have skillshots to slightly offset all of that.
If Riven used mana, she'd have to budget when she used her Q and E meaning she'd have to think more than 10 seconds in advance. Wasting shield because you fail to predict incoming damage or blindly charging at someone when they're too far away means that later on there will be a period of weakness while your mana is low. Since she doesn't use mana (or even energy for that matter) she never has to consider beyond the immediate future. If you're looking at champions that you don't have to think to play I'd suggest you look more at champs like WW, Karth, Kennen, Morg, etc. Riven has to know when she can go in, how much damage she can take, and if you build damage you lack resistances so you're vulnerable to focus fire in a really bad way. The point of a mobility champ is that you have to know when it's safe to engage because more than likely you use your mobility to get into the fight and won't have an escape for a period. If you're complaining because you try to 1v1 Riven without understanding what she can do, then I suggest you play her and actually make an attempt to understand the champion. Great points. Just as a reminder, Riven has ~20% lower basestats than a comparable champion in order to justify her scaling. She also is a pure melee damage champion, if she can´t get close and deal damage she does nothing.
In addition, this was done intentionally so she wouldn't get too much synergy with Triforce and Atmogs. Xyph flat out said part of her design was experimenting with how good the ratios have to be make people stack AD.
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On April 19 2012 08:47 MooMooMugi wrote:
Some glitches I've noticed so far
Champion loading screen, peoples pings are blurry hard to read
Sometimes towers lose the ability to be right clicked and cannot see their HP, have to manually attack move
HP/mana regen doesnt show if you're full HP/mana
Summoner Spells from the game before are not your own, its according to picks
they arent supposed to show when you have full hp and mana
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On April 19 2012 09:51 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 09:01 daemir wrote:On April 19 2012 08:42 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 19 2012 08:16 daemir wrote:On April 19 2012 07:47 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 19 2012 07:31 daemir wrote:On April 19 2012 07:23 Southlight wrote:On April 19 2012 07:09 daemir wrote:
I don't really follow Riot's design with Sejuani and Nautilus, former being like in every way inferior to the latter at the same role while being extremely similar in kits. Xerath, Ziggs pretty meh as well. Viktor has his issues with range and the wasted item slot. I haven't been able to play Seju yet (I want to quite badly) but given what I've seen I think if you think they are similar then you don't really know enough about tanks to understand the differences. Well, neither of them really have damage, they have slows/roots/stuns so they're obviously very disruptive, but I Sejuani draws like the short end on every front vs Naut. Okay, her ult _migh_ be more devastating if you can hit the backline, but since it detonates on impact at anything, you aren't gonna hit the backline. Naut's ult goes through the frontline, short CCs them and then CCs the target. Or they flash away million miles and their frontline gets melted. And Seju's ult cd is like Amumu-style long. I just like, don't see why you'd ever pick Sejuani over Naut. Are you kidding me? Nautilus does a crapload of damage early-mid game. Especially if you take him top lane and build him Chu8 style. Sejuani has great damage output lategame. The scaling on her W is pretty ridiculous. Their ultis are also nothing alike. Naut ulti is a guaranteed knockup on 1 champion, maybe more if you're lucky. Sejuani's ulti has a gigantic hitbox and even if you don't directly tag your intended target, the splash on that thing is so huge you'll be almost guaranteed to stun 3+ people on the enemy team for at least 1 second, not to mention tagging them with your passive so you can slow them to a stop with your E. With regards to ganking, both of them have a gapcloser/snare, but Sejuani's is arguably much easier to land seeing how the hitbox on her Q is a pretty big area around her model. Once you tag something with your passive, as long as you have lvl 2+ E they're basically permaslowed to a stop for a really long time. Naut's cc is a 1 second snare. Not to mention once Sejuani hits 6 she can gank any lane successfully with her 1.2k range ulti. Literally the ONLY reason why Sejuani isn't played is because her early game is complete trash. She doesn't have the sustain or damage to lane properly and her jungle speed for the first few levels is horrendously slow. If Riot buffs her early game jungle speed she'll be top tier. EDIT: Also, the cooldown on Sej's ulti is grossly overexaggerated. Amumu's ulti cd goes from 170 to 130 at lvl 3. Sej's ulti cd is 100 at lvl 3. The way I built her (with shurelias and cd defensive masteries) I easily have ~30-40% cdr so the ulti is up every minute or so. Anytime I've seen a Sejuani ult hit more than 2 people, in games or streams, is in a baron fight. Never once have I seen Sejuani get up to a point where her scaling W damage would do anything meaningful later in the game. If we're talking about slowing people around, Sej slows people with her autos, Naut roots them... Not to mention Naut's aoe slow is far easily applied to multiple people, Sej needs passive or ulti debuff on people for E and while on paper it might look pretty, I haven't seen it work well in practice. I'm talking purely from jungling standpoint, I haven't really seen either of them do lanes, maybe Voyboy played some games as top Naut? Can't even tell for sure, probably wasn't a jaw dropping performance as it hasn't stuck in memory too well. Just as I'm typing this there's a Sejuani in a game with Scarra and I honestly cannot tell why it was picked instead of Naut. How many Sejuanis have you actually seen or played against? Have you yourself ever played Sejuani? Speaking from personal experience from playing her, it's not hard to hit many targets with your ultimate. It's about as difficult as hitting an Ashe arrow. In other words, if you just blindly and randomly throw it out at the enemy team, then yes, you're going to have terrible results. But if you pick your target and use it smartly, it's basically a devastating ranged Amumu ult. For CC, naut has a 1 second snare with an internal 12 second cd, meaning you're only going to get it off once. Other than that, all Naut has is a 2 second diminishing slow. Sej has a 3 70% slow, which is basically slows your target to a stop, along with a permanent 10% slow on anything she hits. In terms of the aoe of the cc, it comes down to how well you can land Sejuani ulti, since it applies her passive and her E hits anything tagged with her passive in a 1000 range aoe. Sejuani can easily keep multiple targets in one place for 4-5 seconds (1-2 second stun from ult, 3 second 70% slow from E). Compare that to Naut, who can only snare for 1 second and 50% diminishing slow for 2 seconds. As far as damage potential goes, it all comes down to how you build them. I'm not saying Sejuani is good or better than Naut. Right now, she's not. Her early game is just too horrible for her to be competitive. But honestly, all Riot needs to do is to buff the numbers on her W's early levels from like 12 dps to ~20 dps and she will be really strong. Her kit has ridiculous amounts of cc and good Sej ults can win games the way good Ashe ults win games. I do not own her so I haven't played her much and not many people seem to play her either. Not many streamers for that matter too. And seems at the end you still agree with me, there's no point really picking her over Naut because she is kinda...trash now. IMO, aside from the numbers, far too much on Sej relies on you actually landing the ult on several people. If you don't, gl snaring more than 1 bruiser with your E in a big fight. Naut's ult is far more reliable and he just needs to lumber in the middle of people or Q in the middle and press E and there you go, team slowed. So, I just don't follow Riot's plan with these 2 champions, released so closely to each other and the latter being clearly superior, in the role I'd say both were meant for (jungle). I guess you could say a lot of Sej viability relies on hitting the ulti on a lot of people but honestly, if people can hit Ashe arrows well there's no reason why they can't hit Sej ults especially when the Sejuani ult hitbox and aoe is fucking huge. Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 09:14 zodde wrote:On April 19 2012 08:42 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 19 2012 08:16 daemir wrote:On April 19 2012 07:47 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 19 2012 07:31 daemir wrote:On April 19 2012 07:23 Southlight wrote:On April 19 2012 07:09 daemir wrote:
I don't really follow Riot's design with Sejuani and Nautilus, former being like in every way inferior to the latter at the same role while being extremely similar in kits. Xerath, Ziggs pretty meh as well. Viktor has his issues with range and the wasted item slot. I haven't been able to play Seju yet (I want to quite badly) but given what I've seen I think if you think they are similar then you don't really know enough about tanks to understand the differences. Well, neither of them really have damage, they have slows/roots/stuns so they're obviously very disruptive, but I Sejuani draws like the short end on every front vs Naut. Okay, her ult _migh_ be more devastating if you can hit the backline, but since it detonates on impact at anything, you aren't gonna hit the backline. Naut's ult goes through the frontline, short CCs them and then CCs the target. Or they flash away million miles and their frontline gets melted. And Seju's ult cd is like Amumu-style long. I just like, don't see why you'd ever pick Sejuani over Naut. Are you kidding me? Nautilus does a crapload of damage early-mid game. Especially if you take him top lane and build him Chu8 style. Sejuani has great damage output lategame. The scaling on her W is pretty ridiculous. Their ultis are also nothing alike. Naut ulti is a guaranteed knockup on 1 champion, maybe more if you're lucky. Sejuani's ulti has a gigantic hitbox and even if you don't directly tag your intended target, the splash on that thing is so huge you'll be almost guaranteed to stun 3+ people on the enemy team for at least 1 second, not to mention tagging them with your passive so you can slow them to a stop with your E. With regards to ganking, both of them have a gapcloser/snare, but Sejuani's is arguably much easier to land seeing how the hitbox on her Q is a pretty big area around her model. Once you tag something with your passive, as long as you have lvl 2+ E they're basically permaslowed to a stop for a really long time. Naut's cc is a 1 second snare. Not to mention once Sejuani hits 6 she can gank any lane successfully with her 1.2k range ulti. Literally the ONLY reason why Sejuani isn't played is because her early game is complete trash. She doesn't have the sustain or damage to lane properly and her jungle speed for the first few levels is horrendously slow. If Riot buffs her early game jungle speed she'll be top tier. EDIT: Also, the cooldown on Sej's ulti is grossly overexaggerated. Amumu's ulti cd goes from 170 to 130 at lvl 3. Sej's ulti cd is 100 at lvl 3. The way I built her (with shurelias and cd defensive masteries) I easily have ~30-40% cdr so the ulti is up every minute or so. Anytime I've seen a Sejuani ult hit more than 2 people, in games or streams, is in a baron fight. Never once have I seen Sejuani get up to a point where her scaling W damage would do anything meaningful later in the game. If we're talking about slowing people around, Sej slows people with her autos, Naut roots them... Not to mention Naut's aoe slow is far easily applied to multiple people, Sej needs passive or ulti debuff on people for E and while on paper it might look pretty, I haven't seen it work well in practice. I'm talking purely from jungling standpoint, I haven't really seen either of them do lanes, maybe Voyboy played some games as top Naut? Can't even tell for sure, probably wasn't a jaw dropping performance as it hasn't stuck in memory too well. Just as I'm typing this there's a Sejuani in a game with Scarra and I honestly cannot tell why it was picked instead of Naut. How many Sejuanis have you actually seen or played against? Have you yourself ever played Sejuani? Speaking from personal experience from playing her, it's not hard to hit many targets with your ultimate. It's about as difficult as hitting an Ashe arrow. In other words, if you just blindly and randomly throw it out at the enemy team, then yes, you're going to have terrible results. But if you pick your target and use it smartly, it's basically a devastating ranged Amumu ult. For CC, naut has a 1 second snare with an internal 12 second cd, meaning you're only going to get it off once. Other than that, all Naut has is a 2 second diminishing slow. Sej has a 3 70% slow, which is basically slows your target to a stop, along with a permanent 10% slow on anything she hits. In terms of the aoe of the cc, it comes down to how well you can land Sejuani ulti, since it applies her passive and her E hits anything tagged with her passive in a 1000 range aoe. Sejuani can easily keep multiple targets in one place for 4-5 seconds (1-2 second stun from ult, 3 second 70% slow from E). Compare that to Naut, who can only snare for 1 second and 50% diminishing slow for 2 seconds. As far as damage potential goes, it all comes down to how you build them. I'm not saying Sejuani is good or better than Naut. Right now, she's not. Her early game is just too horrible for her to be competitive. But honestly, all Riot needs to do is to buff the numbers on her W's early levels from like 12 dps to ~20 dps and she will be really strong. Her kit has ridiculous amounts of cc and good Sej ults can win games the way good Ashe ults win games. Naut has a 1 second root every 12 seconds on every target. It's like bear stance, the cd is just for a single target. Also his hook is a short stun and displacement cc. Combined with his point and click, long range ult, his kit is pretty insane for CCing people. I meant once per person. And yes, I agree that Naut is good for CC'ing people. I was just arguing that Sejuani is just as good, if not better, at ccing people.
Yeah guess we're pretty much agreeing then. Sejuani and Naut both have insane cc and seemed to fill similar roles in a team comp lategame: tanky cc bots. Haven't played Sejuani though, so can't really know why she's not played at all atm. I'll take your word on early game weakness holding her back.
Edit: Is the patch coming to EUW atm? Servers just went down but it said nothing about a patch, just that "PvPnet is going down in 2 minutes". How long did the patching take on NA?
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question, the patch coming out today means varus comes out in 3 weeks? or 2 since this was delayed by 1 week
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On April 19 2012 09:31 TwoToneTerran wrote:
level 1 Graves > Cait > Ezreal > Corki > MF > Kog > Trist.
you have got to be shitting me
trist is like in the top 5 champs for level 1
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how to tell someone knows nothing about what they're ranting about
in case you don't know why, her W resets on champ kills or assists, has a massive AOE slow and damage, and repositions her. she's completely safe if you get invaded, and completely deadly like a fucking super mario brother if she gets an assist in the first kill. bounce bounce bounce you can output godlike damage with trist level 1
the rest of your rankings don't make any sense either. cait is good defensively yes, but corki and ezreal can check brushes and kog has an aoe slow. is a single-target position-based snare better while invading than those?
On April 19 2012 10:20 Jaso wrote:
How exactly is Graves #1 for level1 fights?
he's not, this guy just threw a bunch of champs in a list
just because people say something doesn't make it true
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How exactly is Graves #1 for level1 fights?
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Well, his Q hits for 90 base damage at rank 1 if you get hit by all 3 parts of it. It used to be more before he got nerfed, it's not really amazing as some people think. At least not until rank 3-4 anyway.
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Ashe is a beast for level 1 fight. That 100% crit will deal like 150HP and her W.
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On April 19 2012 10:22 Caphe wrote:
Ashe is a beast for level 1 fight. That 100% crit will deal like 150HP and her W.
this
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graves is a beast at fighting at level 1 but thats not the same as level 1 fights. his passive makes him win auto attack wars with other ranged ads, but special cases are like ashe saving up 100% crit. if we are talking about level 1 team fights champs like udyr and veigar are pretty insane.
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On April 19 2012 10:22 Caphe wrote:
Ashe is a beast for level 1 fight. That 100% crit will deal like 150HP and her W.
She is beast level one burst, but he said she had a slow, which she doesnt at level 1.
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I guessed I missed the part where W doesn't slow you.
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w doesnt slow u if u dont have a point in q
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oh the username makes the comment so good
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There's nothing that says Ashe can't take Q at level 1, and if you really really want to win the level 1 teamfight, you just might take it. But W first is pretty standard from what little I know.
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Whoa who woulda thought Ashe volley doesn't slow?
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EPT
