EPT[Patch 1.0.0.138: Hecarim] General Discussion - Page 17
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
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Cixah
United States11285 Posts
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daemir
Finland8662 Posts
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wussleeQ
United States3130 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On April 19 2012 08:16 daemir wrote: Anytime I've seen a Sejuani ult hit more than 2 people, in games or streams, is in a baron fight. Never once have I seen Sejuani get up to a point where her scaling W damage would do anything meaningful later in the game. If we're talking about slowing people around, Sej slows people with her autos, Naut roots them... Not to mention Naut's aoe slow is far easily applied to multiple people, Sej needs passive or ulti debuff on people for E and while on paper it might look pretty, I haven't seen it work well in practice. I'm talking purely from jungling standpoint, I haven't really seen either of them do lanes, maybe Voyboy played some games as top Naut? Can't even tell for sure, probably wasn't a jaw dropping performance as it hasn't stuck in memory too well. Just as I'm typing this there's a Sejuani in a game with Scarra and I honestly cannot tell why it was picked instead of Naut. How many Sejuanis have you actually seen or played against? Have you yourself ever played Sejuani? Speaking from personal experience from playing her, it's not hard to hit many targets with your ultimate. It's about as difficult as hitting an Ashe arrow. In other words, if you just blindly and randomly throw it out at the enemy team, then yes, you're going to have terrible results. But if you pick your target and use it smartly, it's basically a devastating ranged Amumu ult. For CC, naut has a 1 second snare with an internal 12 second cd, meaning you're only going to get it off once. Other than that, all Naut has is a 2 second diminishing slow. Sej has a 3 70% slow, which is basically slows your target to a stop, along with a permanent 10% slow on anything she hits. In terms of the aoe of the cc, it comes down to how well you can land Sejuani ulti, since it applies her passive and her E hits anything tagged with her passive in a 1000 range aoe. Sejuani can easily keep multiple targets in one place for 4-5 seconds (1-2 second stun from ult, 3 second 70% slow from E). Compare that to Naut, who can only snare for 1 second and 50% diminishing slow for 2 seconds. As far as damage potential goes, it all comes down to how you build them. I'm not saying Sejuani is good or better than Naut. Right now, she's not. Her early game is just too horrible for her to be competitive. But honestly, all Riot needs to do is to buff the numbers on her W's early levels from like 12 dps to ~20 dps and she will be really strong. Her kit has ridiculous amounts of cc and good Sej ults can win games the way good Ashe ults win games. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On April 19 2012 08:25 Cixah wrote: Hecarim thoughts? I've been doing pretty decently with Triforce rush into PD. Ghost at 18 gives 50 free AD and is pretty insane even if you already can move through units. Any other thoughts? Going PD after TF on a melee is just asking to get blown up in team fights. TF by itself is little more survivability than a ruby crystal and you're already 8k gold into your build (counting boots). If I finish TF first I'd at least grab glacial shroud + negatron or something similar. | ||
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MooMooMugi
United States10531 Posts
Champion loading screen, peoples pings are blurry hard to read Sometimes towers lose the ability to be right clicked and cannot see their HP, have to manually attack move HP/mana regen doesnt show if you're full HP/mana Summoner Spells from the game before are not your own, its according to picks | ||
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StyLeD
United States2965 Posts
On April 19 2012 08:11 Node wrote: My main complaint is that it feels like for the recent glut of bruisers (skarner, shyv, voli, hecarim, sejuani in particular) there's a common pool of melee-ish range skills that are just being combined differently, creating a real issue of staleness in the game, as one of these identikit champions is always gonna rise above the others. Say what you will about Riven's balance (a debatable point, but one not really relevant to the discussion), but I don't see how you can say she's "terrible from a design standpoint" when she creates interesting and original gameplay in a way none of these champions really have. My mind is kinda blown that three relatively recent champions with similar roles now have shyvana's W with slightly different particles attached. This trend has been going on ever since Riot started mass producing champs. It's obviously a designer issue. | ||
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Craton
United States17290 Posts
If Riven used mana, she'd have to budget when she used her Q and E meaning she'd have to think more than 10 seconds in advance. Wasting shield because you fail to predict incoming damage or blindly charging at someone when they're too far away means that later on there will be a period of weakness while your mana is low. Since she doesn't use mana (or even energy for that matter) she never has to consider beyond the immediate future. | ||
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Node
United States2159 Posts
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daemir
Finland8662 Posts
On April 19 2012 08:42 Ryuu314 wrote: How many Sejuanis have you actually seen or played against? Have you yourself ever played Sejuani? Speaking from personal experience from playing her, it's not hard to hit many targets with your ultimate. It's about as difficult as hitting an Ashe arrow. In other words, if you just blindly and randomly throw it out at the enemy team, then yes, you're going to have terrible results. But if you pick your target and use it smartly, it's basically a devastating ranged Amumu ult. For CC, naut has a 1 second snare with an internal 12 second cd, meaning you're only going to get it off once. Other than that, all Naut has is a 2 second diminishing slow. Sej has a 3 70% slow, which is basically slows your target to a stop, along with a permanent 10% slow on anything she hits. In terms of the aoe of the cc, it comes down to how well you can land Sejuani ulti, since it applies her passive and her E hits anything tagged with her passive in a 1000 range aoe. Sejuani can easily keep multiple targets in one place for 4-5 seconds (1-2 second stun from ult, 3 second 70% slow from E). Compare that to Naut, who can only snare for 1 second and 50% diminishing slow for 2 seconds. As far as damage potential goes, it all comes down to how you build them. I'm not saying Sejuani is good or better than Naut. Right now, she's not. Her early game is just too horrible for her to be competitive. But honestly, all Riot needs to do is to buff the numbers on her W's early levels from like 12 dps to ~20 dps and she will be really strong. Her kit has ridiculous amounts of cc and good Sej ults can win games the way good Ashe ults win games. I do not own her so I haven't played her much and not many people seem to play her either. Not many streamers for that matter too. And seems at the end you still agree with me, there's no point really picking her over Naut because she is kinda...trash now. IMO, aside from the numbers, far too much on Sej relies on you actually landing the ult on several people. If you don't, gl snaring more than 1 bruiser with your E in a big fight. Naut's ult is far more reliable and he just needs to lumber in the middle of people or Q in the middle and press E and there you go, team slowed. So, I just don't follow Riot's plan with these 2 champions, released so closely to each other and the latter being clearly superior, in the role I'd say both were meant for (jungle). | ||
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Seiuchi
United States931 Posts
One of the biggest attractions of Sejuani is her ult AoE is so forgiving it's incredibly easy to hit an ult that hits 3-5 people. Saying Naut's ult is more reliable is just false. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Inschato
Canada1349 Posts
On April 19 2012 08:59 Node wrote: Question: Assuming a standard team comp, what are the best / worst champions to have in a level 1 teamfight? Are you basically just looking for strong level 1 aoe? I'm never sure when to encourage / discourage my team from invading as a group and risking an early engagement. It's not AoE you want, unless the enemy is really bad. You want single target stuns and snares. Blitzcrank grab is probably the strongest level 1 ability and if he's on your team you'll be invading the enemy jungle 9 out of 10 times. There are some champions that have strong early game passives or base stats (GP, Pantheon spring to mind) and you'll just have to play a lot and keeping reading this thread and other such sources to pick it up over time. I don't really have a chart handy myself. | ||
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zodde
Sweden1908 Posts
On April 19 2012 08:42 Ryuu314 wrote: How many Sejuanis have you actually seen or played against? Have you yourself ever played Sejuani? Speaking from personal experience from playing her, it's not hard to hit many targets with your ultimate. It's about as difficult as hitting an Ashe arrow. In other words, if you just blindly and randomly throw it out at the enemy team, then yes, you're going to have terrible results. But if you pick your target and use it smartly, it's basically a devastating ranged Amumu ult. For CC, naut has a 1 second snare with an internal 12 second cd, meaning you're only going to get it off once. Other than that, all Naut has is a 2 second diminishing slow. Sej has a 3 70% slow, which is basically slows your target to a stop, along with a permanent 10% slow on anything she hits. In terms of the aoe of the cc, it comes down to how well you can land Sejuani ulti, since it applies her passive and her E hits anything tagged with her passive in a 1000 range aoe. Sejuani can easily keep multiple targets in one place for 4-5 seconds (1-2 second stun from ult, 3 second 70% slow from E). Compare that to Naut, who can only snare for 1 second and 50% diminishing slow for 2 seconds. As far as damage potential goes, it all comes down to how you build them. I'm not saying Sejuani is good or better than Naut. Right now, she's not. Her early game is just too horrible for her to be competitive. But honestly, all Riot needs to do is to buff the numbers on her W's early levels from like 12 dps to ~20 dps and she will be really strong. Her kit has ridiculous amounts of cc and good Sej ults can win games the way good Ashe ults win games. Naut has a 1 second root every 12 seconds on every target. It's like bear stance, the cd is just for a single target. Also his hook is a short stun and displacement cc. Combined with his point and click, long range ult, his kit is pretty insane for CCing people. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On April 19 2012 09:11 Inschato wrote: It's not AoE you want, unless the enemy is really bad. You want single target stuns and snares. Blitzcrank grab is probably the strongest level 1 ability and if he's on your team you'll be invading the enemy jungle 9 out of 10 times. There are some champions that have strong early game passives or base stats (GP, Pantheon spring to mind) and you'll just have to play a lot and keeping reading this thread and other such sources to pick it up over time. I don't really have a chart handy myself. I think, the answer is to try and watch some M5 games. They always seem to invade and come out ahead. | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
On April 19 2012 08:58 Craton wrote: Riven is bad from a design standpoint because her kit is innately imbalanced. No cost abilities mean there is no thought required to use them. AD scaling on a low CD shield means you can build high damage and still be extremely durable. This further compounds with being able to rush life steal items (since it's optimal to do so anyway), which gives you massive sustain in lane. Two low CD huge mobility abilities let you overextend freely and zone easily. You have too much up side with too little downside and too much margin of error. She doesn't even have skillshots to slightly offset all of that. If Riven used mana, she'd have to budget when she used her Q and E meaning she'd have to think more than 10 seconds in advance. Wasting shield because you fail to predict incoming damage or blindly charging at someone when they're too far away means that later on there will be a period of weakness while your mana is low. Since she doesn't use mana (or even energy for that matter) she never has to consider beyond the immediate future. I´d rather keep her unique high mobility playstile. Giving her mana wouldn´t make her "fair" it´d make her pointless. It´s kinda amusing how we had a discussion about character design in which complaints about originality were raised and almost immediately another one where one of the more outstanding champions is fixed by completely negating the defining feature. If anything i´d look if there aren´t any other champions that really only have symbolic manacosts that could be dropped. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
Riven being manaless is not her defining feature. Its the mobility inherent to her kit and the way it does it. Limiting the number of times that she can use her combo wouldnt make her shit, it would make her just like every other champion in the game. ATM she wins lanes by being a massive bully, ON TOP OF having stupidly good ratios. Take away the infinite combos and you have a champ with really good ratios who can still 100-0 people in a combo. | ||
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bmn
886 Posts
On April 19 2012 09:21 Unentschieden wrote: I´d rather keep her unique high mobility playstile. Giving her mana wouldn´t make her "fair" it´d make her pointless. It´s kinda amusing how we had a discussion about character design in which complaints about originality were raised and almost immediately another one where one of the more outstanding champions is fixed by completely negating the defining feature. If anything i´d look if there aren´t any other champions that really only have symbolic manacosts that could be dropped. There's nothing inherently imbalanced about cooldown-based abilities. You don't see too many people calling Garen or Kat imbalanced in their current state either. If you use your abilities with no thought, you will do a lot worse in lane than you otherwise would. The idea that you'll do great by spamming everything as soon as it's off cooldown is silly. That said, Riven does arguably have too much mobility given the fairly low cooldowns on her skills. The problem isn't so much that she doesn't use mana, but rather that she can very frequently dash in, stun, aa, dash out. By the time all her skills are on cooldown, she's already out of melee range again, that's why she is so hard to punish. If Kat shunpos in she doesn't have an immediate way to shunpo back out; Garen doesn't have the dashes so he's much easier to bait (if you have a move speed steroid/blink). | ||
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ninjakingcola
United States405 Posts
On April 19 2012 08:58 Craton wrote: Riven is bad from a design standpoint because her kit is innately imbalanced. No cost abilities mean there is no thought required to use them. AD scaling on a low CD shield means you can build high damage and still be extremely durable. This further compounds with being able to rush life steal items (since it's optimal to do so anyway), which gives you massive sustain in lane. Two low CD huge mobility abilities let you overextend freely and zone easily. You have too much up side with too little downside and too much margin of error. She doesn't even have skillshots to slightly offset all of that. If Riven used mana, she'd have to budget when she used her Q and E meaning she'd have to think more than 10 seconds in advance. Wasting shield because you fail to predict incoming damage or blindly charging at someone when they're too far away means that later on there will be a period of weakness while your mana is low. Since she doesn't use mana (or even energy for that matter) she never has to consider beyond the immediate future. If you're looking at champions that you don't have to think to play I'd suggest you look more at champs like WW, Karth, Kennen, Morg, etc. Riven has to know when she can go in, how much damage she can take, and if you build damage you lack resistances so you're vulnerable to focus fire in a really bad way. The point of a mobility champ is that you have to know when it's safe to engage because more than likely you use your mobility to get into the fight and won't have an escape for a period. If you're complaining because you try to 1v1 Riven without understanding what she can do, then I suggest you play her and actually make an attempt to understand the champion. | ||
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