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On April 27 2012 16:23 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 16:06 Gaslo wrote:I've had good success with running something that scales well with TP top. Can't even remember when we really lost because of Shen. But yeah i usually ban him too, just one of those champs that causes so much QQ if you don't. Funny that there is now maybe 4-6(Kass, morg, shaco, Shen, ww pop o mind) in my 1480~ range that you HAVE to ban, or people will start crying. :I And Riot only gives me 3 bans, qq.  Oh, and that idea about teleporting taking longer according to distance is golden, wonder why i haven't thought about it. Maybe even have a shield strength that scales with distance as well. I always run Olaf vs Shen. Olaf stomps on Shen in ways that are ungodlike assuming you dont use your true damage into his shield. I just played like the best game of solo queue like... ever. Everyone was friendly, everyone was flexible in roles, no one argued, and everyone on our team played decently. No surprise we ended up taking top and mid tower at the 8 minute mark, controlling dragon and killing their nexus in 18:37. I feel accomplished, and have made four new friends. My faith in the LoL community has never been stronger. ^_^
i thought it was kind of funny, in the MiG/emfire blind pick game both teams assumed the other team would run shen top so it ended up being an olaf mirror
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United States47024 Posts
On April 27 2012 16:05 Kaneh wrote:
Globals are just too strong. Don't confuse removing a bad mechanic with homogenizing the game.
I fail to see how one of the few mechanics that can actually break the late-game Baron standoff is a "bad mechanic".
On April 27 2012 15:44 barbsq wrote:
no, I don't see. Nearly every game i play, I play with a different teamcomp, that has different playstyle, that has a different 'power curve', and literally the only reason I keep playing this game is that each game doesn't feel the same as the previous, and that hasn't changed for me since beta, despite all of the whining i've heard about 'omg they're homogenizing everything'. Either way, the idea that most champions should have vastly different power levels at different parts of the game is something that is simply impossible to implement, and you are naive if you think otherwise. Champions in similar roles can and should be similar in many respects, and it should be more about player skill involving exploiting a few key strength/weakness combinations rather than just picking glaring, binary counters that would inevitably surface if champions are too different from each other. Hell if you really want a decent example where this is becoming a problem, just look at top lane; it's exactly because so many top lane champs are so vastly different in terms of early and late game strength that you have so many stupid and frustrating counters.
Empirically, there's nothing to support either of these statements. It works in other Mobas, and you see LESS focused lane counterpicking in DotA than you do in LoL. The wider spread of champion power development shifts focus out of the laning phase and into the various timing opportunities this opens up mid- and late-game.
I know I keep bringing DotA back to the discussion, but I really feel it's relevant when people make wild claims about what bad things certain changes would do the game, when empirically, those things don't happen in a game that DOES have some implementation of similar mechanics/changes. There's absolutely nothing to indicate that a wide spread of champion power curves would cause the game do devolve into a system of binary counterpicks. Empirically, the successful implementation of such diversity in other Moba games indicates that the opposite would happen.
I'm not even asking for it to be that extreme. It's just that I can clearly remember a period a year ago when things were in a better place. Then Riot took what was probably the center-point of AP carry balance (Annie) and decided that her power curve didn't line up with every other AP in the game and that she absolutely needed to have her ratios buffed at the cost of her base damage. And they've been doing similarly with other champions/roles ever since (and probably since before then as well).
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On April 27 2012 16:23 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 16:06 Gaslo wrote:I've had good success with running something that scales well with TP top. Can't even remember when we really lost because of Shen. But yeah i usually ban him too, just one of those champs that causes so much QQ if you don't. Funny that there is now maybe 4-6(Kass, morg, shaco, Shen, ww pop o mind) in my 1480~ range that you HAVE to ban, or people will start crying. :I And Riot only gives me 3 bans, qq. Oh, and that idea about teleporting taking longer according to distance is golden, wonder why i haven't thought about it. Maybe even have a shield strength that scales with distance as well. I always run Olaf vs Shen. Olaf stomps on Shen in ways that are ungodlike assuming you dont use your true damage into his shield. I just played like the best game of solo queue like... ever. Everyone was friendly, everyone was flexible in roles, no one argued, and everyone on our team played decently. No surprise we ended up taking top and mid tower at the 8 minute mark, controlling dragon and killing their nexus in 18:37. I feel accomplished, and have made four new friends. My faith in the LoL community has never been stronger. ^_^
Stomping the opponent hard often has the effect on solo Q teams haha :D If you had been on the receiving end of the paintrain, I would expect different behaviour
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On April 27 2012 16:33 zodde wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 16:23 iCanada wrote:On April 27 2012 16:06 Gaslo wrote:I've had good success with running something that scales well with TP top. Can't even remember when we really lost because of Shen. But yeah i usually ban him too, just one of those champs that causes so much QQ if you don't. Funny that there is now maybe 4-6(Kass, morg, shaco, Shen, ww pop o mind) in my 1480~ range that you HAVE to ban, or people will start crying. :I And Riot only gives me 3 bans, qq. Oh, and that idea about teleporting taking longer according to distance is golden, wonder why i haven't thought about it. Maybe even have a shield strength that scales with distance as well. I always run Olaf vs Shen. Olaf stomps on Shen in ways that are ungodlike assuming you dont use your true damage into his shield. I just played like the best game of solo queue like... ever. Everyone was friendly, everyone was flexible in roles, no one argued, and everyone on our team played decently. No surprise we ended up taking top and mid tower at the 8 minute mark, controlling dragon and killing their nexus in 18:37. I feel accomplished, and have made four new friends. My faith in the LoL community has never been stronger. ^_^ Stomping the opponent hard often has the effect on solo Q teams haha :D If you had been on the receiving end of the paintrain, I would expect different behaviour
Haha this is true. Just in general, everyone was happy and awesome.
<3
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On April 27 2012 16:45 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 16:33 zodde wrote:On April 27 2012 16:23 iCanada wrote:On April 27 2012 16:06 Gaslo wrote:I've had good success with running something that scales well with TP top. Can't even remember when we really lost because of Shen. But yeah i usually ban him too, just one of those champs that causes so much QQ if you don't. Funny that there is now maybe 4-6(Kass, morg, shaco, Shen, ww pop o mind) in my 1480~ range that you HAVE to ban, or people will start crying. :I And Riot only gives me 3 bans, qq. Oh, and that idea about teleporting taking longer according to distance is golden, wonder why i haven't thought about it. Maybe even have a shield strength that scales with distance as well. I always run Olaf vs Shen. Olaf stomps on Shen in ways that are ungodlike assuming you dont use your true damage into his shield. I just played like the best game of solo queue like... ever. Everyone was friendly, everyone was flexible in roles, no one argued, and everyone on our team played decently. No surprise we ended up taking top and mid tower at the 8 minute mark, controlling dragon and killing their nexus in 18:37. I feel accomplished, and have made four new friends. My faith in the LoL community has never been stronger. ^_^ Stomping the opponent hard often has the effect on solo Q teams haha :D If you had been on the receiving end of the paintrain, I would expect different behaviour Haha this is true. Just in general, everyone was happy and awesome. <3
Once in like 2000 games, I've had a team that was actually content (not just the absence of flaming, mind you) while losing badly xD
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On April 27 2012 16:31 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 16:05 Kaneh wrote:
Globals are just too strong. Don't confuse removing a bad mechanic with homogenizing the game. I fail to see how one of the few mechanics that can actually break the late-game Baron standoff is a "bad mechanic". Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 15:44 barbsq wrote:
no, I don't see. Nearly every game i play, I play with a different teamcomp, that has different playstyle, that has a different 'power curve', and literally the only reason I keep playing this game is that each game doesn't feel the same as the previous, and that hasn't changed for me since beta, despite all of the whining i've heard about 'omg they're homogenizing everything'. Either way, the idea that most champions should have vastly different power levels at different parts of the game is something that is simply impossible to implement, and you are naive if you think otherwise. Champions in similar roles can and should be similar in many respects, and it should be more about player skill involving exploiting a few key strength/weakness combinations rather than just picking glaring, binary counters that would inevitably surface if champions are too different from each other. Hell if you really want a decent example where this is becoming a problem, just look at top lane; it's exactly because so many top lane champs are so vastly different in terms of early and late game strength that you have so many stupid and frustrating counters.
Empirically, there's nothing to support either of these statements. It works in other Mobas, and you see LESS focused lane counterpicking in DotA than you do in LoL. The wider spread of champion power development shifts focus out of the laning phase and into the various timing opportunities this opens up mid- and late-game. I know I keep bringing DotA back to the discussion, but I really feel it's relevant when people make wild claims about what bad things certain changes would do the game, when empirically, those things don't happen in a game that DOES have some implementation of similar mechanics/changes. There's absolutely nothing to indicate that a wide spread of champion power curves would cause the game do devolve into a system of binary counterpicks. Empirically, the successful implementation of such diversity in other Moba games indicates that the opposite would happen. I'm not even asking for it to be that extreme. It's just that I can clearly remember a period a year ago when things were in a better place. Then Riot took what was probably the center-point of AP carry balance (Annie) and decided that her power curve didn't line up with every other AP in the game and that she absolutely needed to have her ratios buffed at the cost of her base damage. And they've been doing similarly with other champions/roles ever since (and probably since before then as well).
Biggest issue everyone seems to forget is the first thing you should be asking yourself in any kind of game "Am I having fun?"
To take the old annie for example, Yes she was quite fun early game it was really fun being an early game beast and blowing up people with tibbers. However as the game went on and if you didn't win early you didn't get to have that fun anymore, you turned into a literal stun bot. You dropped the bear, did your combo and ran off, your damage wasn't as good as other ap carries at this point it stopped being fun to play her because of how her ratios where worse.
I want my champion to be fun from start to end, if a champion turns into something entirely one dimensional like the old annie, not only do less people play her(because no matter how fun a champ is in the first 20 minutes means little if you are worthless past X marker) she stops being used accept by a small group of people who really enjoy Annie conceptually but realize she's niche.
Early game champions? old shaco, Xin Zhao, Old annie all of those could be considered champions who do well for only so long. And no one plays them. For good reason because it's just not fun to play a champion who's time to shine doesn't end when the game ends it ends well before.
As always it's hard to balance and you still want to keep some of the flair of a champion who does well in the start of the game but doesn't fall face first by the end or vice versa. It's just not enjoyable. *shrug*
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Good Guy Yango not being like Scumbag BP who uses satire.
Let's start really simple:
There is a 1400 player and a 2k player.
Morgana throws her Q skillshot at them. The 1400 player gets hit and takes morg's full burst cause he didn't properly dodge it, dying. He knew he had to dodge it, but he didn't properly dodge it. He calls morg OP and wants to always ban her cause she's stupid.
The 2k player in the other hand also gets morg's q thrown at him. He knows he has to dodge it and so properly responds and moves slightly in the correct direction to dodge it, which he normally does and is used to doing vs skillshots (perhaps he even hid behind minions if i land?). He retaliates and harasses back a bit. He feels morgana obviously has her merits as a champion, but doesn't feel she's OP or ban worthy.
Now, can you tell me the difference between these players? Is morg broken and OP or is there more to this than meets the eye? Perhaps there is more counterplay than simply nerfing morg cause she's stupid?
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i think morg is a bad example because she clearly is OP with the best ult in the game and spell-shield
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On April 27 2012 17:31 BlackPaladin wrote:
Good Guy Yango not being like Scumbag BP who uses satire.
Let's start really simple:
There is a 1400 player and a 2k player.
Morgana throws her Q skillshot at them. The 1400 player gets hit and takes morg's full burst cause he didn't properly dodge it, dying. He knew he had to dodge it, but he didn't properly dodge it. He calls morg OP and wants to always ban her cause she's stupid.
The 2k player in the other hand also gets morg's q thrown at him. He knows he has to dodge it and so properly responds and moves slightly in the correct direction to dodge it, which he normally does and is used to doing vs skillshots (perhaps he even hid behind minions if i land?). He retaliates and harasses back a bit. He feels morgana obviously has her merits as a champion, but doesn't feel she's OP or ban worthy.
Now, can you tell me the difference between these players? Is morg broken and OP or is there more to this than meets the eye? Perhaps there is more counterplay than simply nerfing morg cause she's stupid?
The 1400 player gets hit by warwick ult and morg follows up. Nerf ww and morg please.
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On April 27 2012 16:31 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 16:05 Kaneh wrote:
Globals are just too strong. Don't confuse removing a bad mechanic with homogenizing the game. I fail to see how one of the few mechanics that can actually break the late-game Baron standoff is a "bad mechanic". Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 15:44 barbsq wrote:
no, I don't see. Nearly every game i play, I play with a different teamcomp, that has different playstyle, that has a different 'power curve', and literally the only reason I keep playing this game is that each game doesn't feel the same as the previous, and that hasn't changed for me since beta, despite all of the whining i've heard about 'omg they're homogenizing everything'. Either way, the idea that most champions should have vastly different power levels at different parts of the game is something that is simply impossible to implement, and you are naive if you think otherwise. Champions in similar roles can and should be similar in many respects, and it should be more about player skill involving exploiting a few key strength/weakness combinations rather than just picking glaring, binary counters that would inevitably surface if champions are too different from each other. Hell if you really want a decent example where this is becoming a problem, just look at top lane; it's exactly because so many top lane champs are so vastly different in terms of early and late game strength that you have so many stupid and frustrating counters.
Empirically, there's nothing to support either of these statements. It works in other Mobas, and you see LESS focused lane counterpicking in DotA than you do in LoL. The wider spread of champion power development shifts focus out of the laning phase and into the various timing opportunities this opens up mid- and late-game. I know I keep bringing DotA back to the discussion, but I really feel it's relevant when people make wild claims about what bad things certain changes would do the game, when empirically, those things don't happen in a game that DOES have some implementation of similar mechanics/changes. There's absolutely nothing to indicate that a wide spread of champion power curves would cause the game do devolve into a system of binary counterpicks. Empirically, the successful implementation of such diversity in other Moba games indicates that the opposite would happen. I'm not even asking for it to be that extreme. It's just that I can clearly remember a period a year ago when things were in a better place. Then Riot took what was probably the center-point of AP carry balance (Annie) and decided that her power curve didn't line up with every other AP in the game and that she absolutely needed to have her ratios buffed at the cost of her base damage. And they've been doing similarly with other champions/roles ever since (and probably since before then as well).
I think you can't make that comparison. And I also think that having strong counterpicks will have a very different effect on LoL.
Lanes are very static compared to Dota and you have next to no roaming. In Dota your team can more easily swap with you or support you by roaming if you end up in a bad matchup. In LoL you are more or less on your own. If the neighboring lane is doing very well, they might be able to roam for you, but there is no guarantee. And also the jungler can't always help you.
Basically what I'm saying is that only because it works well in other Mobas, doesn't mean it will work well in Lol. The opposite might happen.
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Panth and leblanc both are perfectly viable picks and their powercurves are sbout as saggy as an elserly woman's boobs so i don't see how having powercurves that are different is bad in LoL.
Also does anyone else find it ironic that gtr posts followed by a post involving ww? :D
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I think you are massively underestimating a 1400 elo player.
Your story seems more apt in the ~500 Elo game range...
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On April 27 2012 17:48 BlackPaladin wrote:
Panth and leblanc both are perfectly viable picks and their powercurves are sbout as saggy as an elserly woman's boobs so i don't see how having powercurves that are different is bad in LoL.
Also does anyone else find it ironic that gtr posts followed by a post involving ww? :D
is that ironic because i'm the best ww player on tl?
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On April 27 2012 16:31 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 16:05 Kaneh wrote:
Globals are just too strong. Don't confuse removing a bad mechanic with homogenizing the game. I fail to see how one of the few mechanics that can actually break the late-game Baron standoff is a "bad mechanic".
Just because a mechanic breaks the "late-game Baron standoff" it does not make it a non-bad mechanic. It also matters how it breaks it, does it give a team too much of an advantage?
For example: assume there is an ability of a hero that will passively give it vision of baron and actively insta-gib baron from global range. That ability (and the mechanic behind it) would completely make the "late-game Baron standoff" a non-factor since one team would just get it every time. Does that make it a good mechanic? No, because it gives too much of an advantage.
Of course you can argue that shen ulti is nowhere near that level of imbalance (and i agree), but the point i am trying to get across is that you can not just say: "oh this mechanic helps against this bad thing therefore it can not be bad itself".
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i dont think olaf counters shen...
olaf does true damage, doesnt like to play against heavy sustain / hp stackers
shen is both gg
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On April 27 2012 12:16 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 11:34 Requizen wrote:On April 27 2012 11:03 Cloud9157 wrote:On April 27 2012 10:55 Alaric wrote:
Shen reminds me of Morgana. Permaban, but whenever somebody gets his hands on him it seems like they can't play him properly for the life of them.
Mundo on the other hand seems to have more decent practicionners than not, from what I've seen (1250 Elo sup).
When I see the bans at that Elo, it actually reminds me more of the veto system for SC2 maps than a real ban procedure, in that people just select what they don't like, or have been told is imbalanced, without putting much thought into it.
How is it at higher Elo? Do people discuss bans more? Are they more generic or targeted at whatever you don't like when you're first pick (from what I recall, the practices regarding that point are quite split in our subforum)?
I'm always surprised at people banning following exactly the same procedure whether they're first pick or second pick. FP gives you so many opportunities to force "standard" bans on your opponent, thus keeping a number of options open, or being able to ban whatever you don't like. From my perspective as a frequent stream watcher and I watch every big tournie I can, they differ. In solo q, I don't see much discussion at high ELOs. They just ban the pretty gimmicky champs like Shaco and Shen(dat ulti son). You will also see some of the less usual bans like Graves or Ryze, at least compared to the lower ELO. I remember when I had first pick and I banned like Shen, Urgot, and Ryze. Teammates gave me so much shit for banning Ryze+Urgot. Urgot may have been a tad overboard(he was getting REAL popular with the pros at the time though) but Ryze was understandable imo. I mean, sure a lot of people will probably suck using him, but ehh. However, when you see the pros together, its a different story. I hear a LOT of talk during scrims, sometimes they ban at the very last moment. Tournies are usually targeted bans. Take IPL4 for example. CLG vs TSM GFs had CLG banning Nocturne ALL 6 games. It pretty much shut down TOO entirely. Wait, Shen is still ban status? I thought he was considered pretty mediocre since his series of nerfs. I've been playing him and winning, but he never really felt overly strong to me, imo. If you saw my infamous series of posts in the Fiora discussion thread, you would know that I sympathize with you somewhat. I feel hes REALLY strong and perfectly viable, but I don't think I ever felt he was "omg remove from game or we afk" status. Hell, I treat him just like I would Riven really. Try and play passive with a hard-scaling champion into late game like Irelia and run teleport. Once again, hes a great champ that will dominate a lot of top lanes, but he isn't unstoppable. Just extremely hard to kill, and he gets to split push all he wants while his team sits around Baron.
Necessary to humble you imo.
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On April 27 2012 18:28 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
i dont think olaf counters shen...
olaf does true damage, doesnt like to play against heavy sustain / hp stackers
shen is both gg
Nah, Shen's sustain sucks. 1 level of W gives Olaf better sustain. If Shen wanna stack life Olaf can laugh and just level Q.
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On April 27 2012 17:31 BlackPaladin wrote:
Good Guy Yango not being like Scumbag BP who uses satire.
Let's start really simple:
There is a 1400 player and a 2k player.
Morgana throws her Q skillshot at them. The 1400 player gets hit and takes morg's full burst cause he didn't properly dodge it, dying. He knew he had to dodge it, but he didn't properly dodge it. He calls morg OP and wants to always ban her cause she's stupid.
The 2k player in the other hand also gets morg's q thrown at him. He knows he has to dodge it and so properly responds and moves slightly in the correct direction to dodge it, which he normally does and is used to doing vs skillshots (perhaps he even hid behind minions if i land?). He retaliates and harasses back a bit. He feels morgana obviously has her merits as a champion, but doesn't feel she's OP or ban worthy.
Now, can you tell me the difference between these players? Is morg broken and OP or is there more to this than meets the eye? Perhaps there is more counterplay than simply nerfing morg cause she's stupid?
The difference is the 1400 player will get hit by q 1 out of 20 throws.
the 2k player gets hit by it 1 out of 40 throws.
The problem w/ morgana is that getting hit by that binding is super unforgiving, same applies to a lot of hard cc skillshot champions.
The thing is, in ap mid lane, it's tough to punish a miss'd snare, because of her black shield, and if that's not enough, during the time she missed her q, she probably has tormented soil on the ground, already shoving the lane right in your face.
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On April 27 2012 18:19 miicah wrote:
I think you are massively underestimating a 1400 elo player.
Your story seems more apt in the ~500 Elo game range...
Oh it's still perfectly valid in the 1200 range... but Morgana is really suited the flaws at that kind of Elo: easy to use, not that easy to play properly (ie other than passively pushing, or against insta-clearers), and bringing along skillshots for people to miss [more or less] hilariously
So you see people banning her, asking for a swap/fp even though she's easily countered, at least in lane, and everybody owns her now (everytime I see a newcomer they get told to buy her, etc.) that she's treated as OP, kinda like you can't know if somebody's good with Trist/Ashe as they're basically free. And in game, turns out you can have a mild success in a mediocrity range (her advantage is seen as "I can work hard and get 80 cs @20 by last hitting, or play Morg and get 90 not even trying", and people don't realize they actually totally wasted her and didn't farm jack shit), so most play her like that and don't even strive to improve, leading to a majority of horrible Morgana(s). I'd ban her more to stop my team from picking her than to keep her out of the opponent's grasp.
Could be the same with Shen (esp. in the jungle) and WW (because of those dreadful dring opener, esp. against Pantheon or Renekton, trololo).
Switching topics, I know some people here got high playing support, and advocate the huge impact you can have on a game with good warding, timing, and keeping your carry safe. Not wanting to QQ, I'll just use one of those games where I felt hapless as a base:
I was playing Alistar (with Ashe, against Kog-Soraka, no idea how the lane's supposed to turn out, theirs is stronger I guess), with our fp taking jungle Shen and the opposing jungler being Mundo.
I saw our Fiora top playing very aggressively against Riven, and reminded him that Mundo ganks a lot, and well at that, asking him to be safe at the beginning (to avoid level 2 ganks) and not overextend. As he died for a fb, I hoped he'd buy a ward, which he didn't. He overextended again, and through pings and chat I asked him again to play safe. He had to die three times before he started buying wards.
Shen wasn't very good to say the least, missing ults, only pinging his target then running in w/o looking if we were in position, and generally not exerting a lot of presence. Mundo otoh moved a lot, didn't counterjungle much but often went through our wraiths to try and gank botlane from tribrush (I always managed to save both of us when that happened, with warding).
Fiora died again several times because Riven only had to buy a pink ward and Fiora never responded with one of his own, nor tried to stop Riven when he did. He still made a point about diving and overextending (he'd have won w/o the ganks I think, but that isn't an excuse).
Shen never warded for Fiora.
I considered doing it but then I'd have to leave Ashe to 1v2, with the threat of Mundo coming again; on top of that Kog pushed her all the way to our tower.
What am I to do to influence the game as a support at that point? Warding/roaming is made difficult, if not impossible, by a tough, here losing, lane, and the team won't heed requests/advice (Shen warding top or being more synchronized when ganking). Is it a particular case (Alistar horrible pick in this setup for example) or is there stuff that I missed as a support, that I could have done to have a bigger impact? In the latter case, any suggestions/examples on which I could work to improve myself?
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For me, Riven and Gankplank are more of a problem than Shen. Those guys are really tough, have high sustain and carry-like dps. Shen? I just ignore him, and keep a distance to avoid his taunt. You just need to look out for his ult, it has a pretty long cooldown. After he used it once you can easliy push to baron/dragon, Shen will be useless meantime.
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EPT
