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United States47024 Posts
On April 27 2012 03:26 Juicyfruit wrote:
A good support item should be cheap and give really bad stats, but have really good aura or actives for the team.
I don't see why the item needs to give bad self-stats.
That just makes playing support suck because you have to sacrifice personal development/survivability for team items. I would say the way to go is to try and design support items that feel good for both the support player AND the team.
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they just need to make soul shroud a decent item. it's so crappy at it's current value
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On April 27 2012 03:28 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 03:26 Juicyfruit wrote:
A good support item should be cheap and give really bad stats, but have really good aura or actives for the team. I don't see why the item needs to give bad self-stats. That just makes playing support suck because you have to sacrifice personal development/survivability for team items. I would say the way to go is to try and design support items that feel good for both the support player AND the team.
Because that's the only way to make really good actives/aura balanced without making it so good that it ends up being built on everybody else.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 27 2012 03:31 Juicyfruit wrote:
Because that's the only way to make really good actives/aura balanced without making it so good that it ends up being built on everybody else.
I don't agree with that, and I think it comes back to the slot-efficiency issue.
Slot-efficiency by nature is less of a problem for supports because they see less gold. They value gold-efficiency more highly and slot-efficiency less highly because of how little gold they see--they're less likely to finish items, so they care about the items they get being gold-efficient. This means that you can tailor items to supports based on their comparative slot-inefficiency.
In theory, the way to design a support item with good self-stats is to make it gold-efficient, but very slot-inefficient. In practice, this is at the moment only really feasible in the sub-1000 gold range. 1.5-2k gold items are "big" enough that non-support roles are willing to commit item slots to them for a long time.
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On April 27 2012 03:30 wei2coolman wrote:
they just need to make soul shroud a decent item. it's so crappy at it's current value
A buffed Soul Shroud with WotA sounds great for some reason.
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They seriously buffed DFG.
Sigh.
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United States47024 Posts
Also, I think it's ironic that Icefrog at one point did the exact opposite of what Riot is doing now--instead of making efficient mid-tier items build into endgame items, there are several strong midgame items which he deliberately disjoined from their endgame build paths.
People who played DotA a long time ago might remember that Eul's used to build into Sheepstick, and that Diffusal Blade used to build into Manta Style. IIRC this turned out to be something of an issue, as Eul's->Sheepstick had in insanely good buildup (especially since Eul's had really short CD and instead came with charges--you'd just use up all 6 Eul's Charges, then make Sheepstick). I think at one point it got so bad that tournaments in this era sometimes had a "one sheepstick per team" rule. After a lot of effort trying to balance them together, Icefrog eventually gave up and disjoined the items, and balanced them separately--Eul's as a midgame item with good buildup but mediocre active; and Sheepstick as a lategame item with a fantastic active but fairly rough buildup.
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On April 27 2012 03:44 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 03:31 Juicyfruit wrote:
Because that's the only way to make really good actives/aura balanced without making it so good that it ends up being built on everybody else. I don't agree with that, and I think it comes back to the slot-efficiency issue. Slot-efficiency by nature is less of a problem for supports because they see less gold. They value gold-efficiency more highly and slot-efficiency less highly because of how little gold they see--they're less likely to finish items, so they care about the items they get being gold-efficient. This means that you can tailor items to supports based on their comparative slot-inefficiency. In theory, the way to design a support item with good self-stats is to make it gold-efficient, but very slot-inefficient. In practice, this is at the moment only really feasible in the sub-1000 gold range. 1.5-2k gold items are "big" enough that non-support roles are willing to commit item slots to them for a long time.
I don't know, I feel like you're still stuck with very "mediocre effects" using this strategy, or self-stats that are so good that people would be building them on other heroes anyways even if they have to sell them later.
I mean, I can't imagine what kind of item you'd be building that has a useful "support" effect while also being cheap, cost-effective, and something you wouldn't want to throw on another hero for early game boost instead of like...dorans.
Basically, what I want is items that have really game-changing actives but with real shitty self-stats. Imagine an item that costs 1000gold, gives virtually no stats, but has a targetable QSS active - stuff like that would make playing support more fun, not padding cheap HP, imo.
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On April 27 2012 03:53 TheYango wrote:
Also, I think it's ironic that Icefrog at one point did the exact opposite of what Riot is doing now--instead of making efficient mid-tier items build into endgame items, there are several strong midgame items which he deliberately disjoined from their endgame build paths.
People who played DotA a long time ago might remember that Eul's used to build into Sheepstick, and that Diffusal Blade used to build into Manta Style. IIRC this turned out to be something of an issue, as Eul's->Sheepstick had in insanely good buildup (especially since Eul's had really short CD and instead came with charges--you'd just use up all 6 Eul's Charges, then make Sheepstick). I think at one point it got so bad that tournaments in this era sometimes had a "one sheepstick per team" rule. After a lot of effort trying to balance them together, Icefrog eventually gave up and disjoined the items, and balanced them separately--Eul's as a midgame item with good buildup but mediocre active; and Sheepstick as a lategame item with a fantastic active but fairly rough buildup.
I think the reason for Riot going down this route is because of the philosophy of there being constant change in strength instead of the ability for peaks of strength.
Personally I prefer the Dota approach but I can see why Riot goes down this route. The discussion about support items is really interesting since when I quit playing dota supports were just ward bitches but now there are so many items like drums/medallion/vlads/smoke/dust etc. that supports can get to be influential in the game. I think Riot should really look into this, especially items like medallion. Playing support these days in dota is far more involving than it was years ago and I think if they did this it will be more fun
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United States47024 Posts
On April 27 2012 03:53 Juicyfruit wrote:
Basically, what I want is items that have really game-changing actives but with real shitty self-stats. Imagine an item that costs 1000gold, gives virtually no stats, but has a targetable QSS active - stuff like that would make playing support more fun, not padding cheap HP, imo.
It's fun until your total lack of self-stats gets you gibbed in every fight.
If a support's in-fight contribution compared to their survivability becomes overly skewed, they become very appealing kill targets. And an item that gives close to zero self-stats entirely for utility skews that balance REALLY hard. Potentially too much so if the items are designed poorly.
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On April 27 2012 04:01 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 03:53 Juicyfruit wrote:
Basically, what I want is items that have really game-changing actives but with real shitty self-stats. Imagine an item that costs 1000gold, gives virtually no stats, but has a targetable QSS active - stuff like that would make playing support more fun, not padding cheap HP, imo. It's fun until your total lack of self-stats gets you gibbed in every fight. If a support's in-fight contribution compared to their survivability becomes overly skewed, they become very appealing kill targets. And an item that gives close to zero self-stats entirely for utility skews that balance REALLY hard. Potentially too much so if the items are designed poorly.
It's a choice you can make to build it though. It's not like you HAVE to buy this item if you feel too vulnerable. Also, I feel like it's wrong to say "dive their Janna/Sona/Soraka" would instantly become the optimal strategy in every situation just because they are down 250HP from buying a utility item instead of a kindlegem.
It's just a sensible way of introducing really strong utility items for support and only support heroes, since no other role can afford to be behind that much gold in stats, but supports can.
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Makes for choices of prioritizing a carry or a support as well.
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On April 27 2012 04:08 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 04:01 TheYango wrote:On April 27 2012 03:53 Juicyfruit wrote:
Basically, what I want is items that have really game-changing actives but with real shitty self-stats. Imagine an item that costs 1000gold, gives virtually no stats, but has a targetable QSS active - stuff like that would make playing support more fun, not padding cheap HP, imo. It's fun until your total lack of self-stats gets you gibbed in every fight. If a support's in-fight contribution compared to their survivability becomes overly skewed, they become very appealing kill targets. And an item that gives close to zero self-stats entirely for utility skews that balance REALLY hard. Potentially too much so if the items are designed poorly. It's a choice you can make to build it though. It's not like you HAVE to buy this item if you feel too vulnerable. Also, I feel like it's wrong to say "dive their Janna/Sona/Soraka" would instantly become the optimal strategy in every situation just because they are down 250HP from buying a utility item instead of a kindlegem. It's just a sensible way of introducing really strong utility items for support and only support heroes, since no other role can afford to be behind that much gold in stats, but supports can.
It would be interesting if they added some items that had no recipe, but costed 3000G.
Like a more ridiculous version of BF Sword/Needlessly large.
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it's pretty easy to get capped for like 1k gold if you're building anything but shurelya's after your gp5. Aegis for example. I rush aegis pretty much every game on aggressive supports like alistar and leona and there's an awkward window where you need to hold a slot open for your wards. That actually reminds me: are we going to get an active on aegis at some point? It's a really boring item just giving the aura passively.
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A big factor is that Riot avoids certain interactions that are deemed acceptable in Dota. You aren´t really able to "shut down" anyone by dominating them so hard that they get useless. Making midgame items stronger and endgame items more expensive so that a midgame strategy can prevent an endgame strategy from ever accomplishing something may be a solution but it´s not how Riot wants the game to work. It´s similar to all the mechanics that keep the laningphase from being completely gamedeciding.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 27 2012 04:25 Unentschieden wrote:
A big factor is that Riot avoids certain interactions that are deemed acceptable in Dota. You aren´t really able to "shut down" anyone by dominating them so hard that they get useless. Making midgame items stronger and endgame items more expensive so that a midgame strategy can prevent an endgame strategy from ever accomplishing something may be a solution but it´s not how Riot wants the game to work. It´s similar to all the mechanics that keep the laningphase from being completely gamedeciding.
You mean like how infinite ward buying makes it much harder for junglers/other lanes to influence a losing lane, and much easier for someone who's ahead in lane to keep their advantage? Or how the much more homogenized champion power curves and weaker/narrower timing windows makes it MUCH harder for a team that lost all 3 lanes to stage a comeback? Oh wait.
Saying that LoL's mechanics are less snow-bally and less game-deciding than DotA's is pretty much bullshit. "Win lanes->win game" is a much better description of LoL than it is of DotA.
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So... should my MR blues be flat or scaling? Every guide used to say scaling 100% of the time, but now I see more and more say flat. Obviously flat helps early, scaling late, etc, but which is objectively the smarter one to take if I mainly play bruisers?
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On April 27 2012 04:30 Requizen wrote:
So... should my MR blues be flat or scaling? Every guide used to say scaling 100% of the time, but now I see more and more say flat. Obviously flat helps early, scaling late, etc, but which is objectively the smarter one to take if I mainly play bruisers?
Depends entirely on whether your lane opponent does any magic damage early on. Flat's always better if it's useful early levels, but quite often it doesn't do anything at all, so in that case go with scaling.
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On April 27 2012 04:30 Requizen wrote:
So... should my MR blues be flat or scaling? Every guide used to say scaling 100% of the time, but now I see more and more say flat. Obviously flat helps early, scaling late, etc, but which is objectively the smarter one to take if I mainly play bruisers?
Those guides were not written by me then.
Flat by default, scaling if there are no magic damage threats around for the first 8 or so levels. If you are limited on runepages, go flat. The lategame difference is negligible compared to the earlygame difference because you can itemize for lategame.
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Have u guys seen the new referal 2.0 yet?
It happens that i have 7 "friend" (hehe) who reached lvl 5.Now the thing is that it says i recieved 1750 IP from them.WUt? Gotta check it out later if the points really are added to my account ot not.
edit: oh i just realized that ip is not rp.LOL i had so high hopes hahah.
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EPT
