EPT[Patch 1.0.0.138: Hecarim] General Discussion - Page 106
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On April 27 2012 01:37 Sabin010 wrote: nvm I just read the updated notes, and they're buffing the early game and nerfing the later game, with no changes in his mana costs. forgive my ignorance. No, it's in addition to the previous patch notes, which means they're nerfing the % by 1 cumulative (-4 at level 5), and the mana cost is increased by 10 at all levels. | ||
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Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
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Glaceau
Wales333 Posts
On April 27 2012 01:38 wei2coolman wrote: Meh, I don't like how riot is making mid game items into lategame items, What they need to do is make mid game items super fucking cost effective so there's a "risk" factor, in which players are willing to risk lategame power for midgame power. unfortunately this game doesnt actually work like that, especially in the pro scene. The teams that are the best are the ones that apply constant and early pressure because LoL is a game of snowballing. If mid game items were vastly stronger then their lategame counterparts everyone would buy them since you want to be as powerful as possible as soon as possible to take dragons and eventually barons. if you have more gold then your opponents, item choices rarely matter. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 27 2012 01:49 Glaceau wrote: unfortunately this game doesnt actually work like that, especially in the pro scene. The teams that are the best are the ones that apply constant and early pressure because LoL is a game of snowballing. If mid game items were vastly stronger then their lategame counterparts everyone would buy them since you want to be as powerful as possible as soon as possible to take dragons and eventually barons. if you have more gold then your opponents, item choices rarely matter. DotA actually takes the opposite design paradigm with items. Lower-tier items are more cost-effective than their later-tiered counterparts. This creates a resource tradeoff between gold-efficiency and slot-efficiency of items, not unlike the tradeoff between economy and army strength in Starcraft. It also creates similar strategic issues of timing. Having a keener understanding of timing was one of the reasons why Chinese DotA teams were able to surpass their western counterparts in 2010. A player opting for lower-tier gold-efficient items caps out his item slots quickly. This means that there is a timing window when he's on 6 items, but has not sold and replaced one of his lower-tier items, and is therefore capped out on power. For the next 3k-4k gold, his itemized gold value flatlines, which allows the other team to catch up on power, and seek fights on even terms before one of those items gets replaced. Alternatively, a player who opts to use a gold advantage and turn it into larger items has superior slot-efficiency, but due to the poorer gold-efficiency of the items, the opponent again has a timing window in which they can go all-in on lower-tier items that have superior fighting power immediately. Even if they don't need to be better than finished lategame items, they need to at least feel better than the COMPONENTS for those items. As it stands, Brutalizer doesn't really even feel more effective than BF Sword. Haunting Guise doesn't feel better than NLR. Spirit Visage doesn't feel better than Glacial Shroud. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 27 2012 02:08 Slayer91 wrote: Yeah when's the last time people ever got item capped consistently except because they built too many dorans blades? Obviously people don't get item capped because they can always opt for slot-efficient items without ever losing out on gold efficiency. If slot-efficiency entailed some loss in gold-efficiency and vice-versa, then the potential to cap out would be much more real. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
Imo the problem is the relatively small gold gap between these midgame items and the big items. Oh, also the fact that you can't efficiently stack these midgame items. Most champs can only use one of them well, and they always have some Unique stat or something else that makes it not desireable to stack them. So you can't really go all in on Midgame items - you either won't even find enough of these for your champ or your enemies will get to their big items before you can really create a big advantage. How to fix this? Well, instead of increasing the gold cost on the supposed-to-be-midgame-items, they should decrease the gold cost. Big items should not get stat nerfs, but increased gold costs (see Gunblade for a case where they did the opposite). Well, at least that's the path I suggest if there even should be a real difference between midgame and lategame items. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Given a support's gold intake, a 2k gold aura item is effectively equivalent to a "big" item for supports. Supports effectively have no equivalent to the 1500-2k gold midgame items, so you can't really match up that well with your team if they choose to play toward that route. Your best itemization options below 1k gold are pretty much just Doran's, Kindlegem, and gp10s. | ||
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cascades
Singapore6122 Posts
On April 27 2012 02:00 TheYango wrote: DotA actually takes the opposite design paradigm with items. Lower-tier items are more cost-effective than their later-tiered counterparts. This creates a resource tradeoff between gold-efficiency and slot-efficiency of items, not unlike the tradeoff between economy and army strength in Starcraft. It also creates similar strategic issues of timing. Having a keener understanding of timing was one of the reasons why Chinese DotA teams were able to surpass their western counterparts in 2010. A player opting for lower-tier gold-efficient items caps out his item slots quickly. This means that there is a timing window when he's on 6 items, but has not sold and replaced one of his lower-tier items, and is therefore capped out on power. For the next 3k-4k gold, his itemized gold value flatlines, which allows the other team to catch up on power, and seek fights on even terms before one of those items gets replaced. Alternatively, a player who opts to use a gold advantage and turn it into larger items has superior slot-efficiency, but due to the poorer gold-efficiency of the items, the opponent again has a timing window in which they can go all-in on lower-tier items that have superior fighting power immediately. Even if they don't need to be better than finished lategame items, they need to at least feel better than the COMPONENTS for those items. As it stands, Brutalizer doesn't really even feel more effective than BF Sword. Haunting Guise doesn't feel better than NLR. Spirit Visage doesn't feel better than Glacial Shroud. Please update on dota meta. I am pretty sure Lol item design flaw is inherited from dota. I am really surprised since this design flaw seems really obvious but went unnoticed when Riot started developing LoL. It used to be in dota that the only items worth building were tier 4 HoT/Buriza/MKB (Warmogs/IE) and your wraith bands/strength bracers (Doran). There were very few midgame exceptions, but they exist. (Blink/Desolator) Sound familiar? Yeah, agreed with your post. | ||
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cascades
Singapore6122 Posts
On April 27 2012 02:49 TheYango wrote: On a tangentially related issue, does anyone else feel that there should be a support item tailored to the sub-1000 gold range? Given a support's gold intake, a 2k gold aura item is effectively equivalent to a "big" item for supports. Supports effectively have no equivalent to the 1500-2k gold midgame items, so you can't really match up that well with your team if they choose to play toward that route. Your best itemization options below 1k gold are pretty much just Doran's, Kindlegem, and gp10s. What are you proposing for this theoretical support item? Just sub 1k is called 2 dorans. Sub .5k is called doran. You can't have items even more efficient than dorans. (Giving doran different stats should as cdr could be explored though) Aura items could be reduced to 1.5k to fill the gap though, making them even more no brainers. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
So something like a haunting guize, or executioner call, except just make them cheaper. | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
On April 27 2012 03:11 wei2coolman wrote: What they need to do is make midgame items that are strong midgame, but lose its relevance in lategame (HARD), not like wit's end or wriggles, which is good in mid game and is relevant all the way into lategame. So something like a haunting guize, or executioner call, except just make them cheaper. Like dorans 2.0 | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 27 2012 03:08 cascades wrote: What are you proposing for this theoretical support item? Just sub 1k is called 2 dorans. Sub .5k is called doran. You can't have items even more efficient than dorans. (Giving doran different stats should as cdr could be explored though) Aura items could be reduced to 1.5k to fill the gap though, making them even more no brainers. Obviously it's hard to itemize something in that gold range purely on stats. I was thinking of a support active item that build from cheap components like Cloth Armor. Something like: Cloth Armor + Null-Magic Mantle + 200 20 Armor, 25 MR Unique Active: Reduces target's armor and MR each by 15 for 5 seconds. 60 second cooldown. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On April 27 2012 02:49 TheYango wrote: On a tangentially related issue, does anyone else feel that there should be a support item tailored to the sub-1000 gold range? Given a support's gold intake, a 2k gold aura item is effectively equivalent to a "big" item for supports. Supports effectively have no equivalent to the 1500-2k gold midgame items, so you can't really match up that well with your team if they choose to play toward that route. Your best itemization options below 1k gold are pretty much just Doran's, Kindlegem, and gp10s. hmm, maybe mini aura- items? but the thing is, if you make any new aura items, that are sub 2k, the stats they offer would have to be pretty small, possibly negligible. | ||
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Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
On April 27 2012 03:16 wei2coolman wrote: hmm, maybe mini aura- items? but the thing is, if you make any new aura items, that are sub 2k, the stats they offer would have to be pretty small, possibly negligible. A GP10 item with wriggles active. No other stats. BAM. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On April 27 2012 02:49 TheYango wrote: On a tangentially related issue, does anyone else feel that there should be a support item tailored to the sub-1000 gold range? Given a support's gold intake, a 2k gold aura item is effectively equivalent to a "big" item for supports. Supports effectively have no equivalent to the 1500-2k gold midgame items, so you can't really match up that well with your team if they choose to play toward that route. Your best itemization options below 1k gold are pretty much just Doran's, Kindlegem, and gp10s. You mean like Emblem of Valor? Oh. | ||
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