On April 27 2012 04:57 Craton wrote: I'm hoping their referral system note is actual accurate about them not losing data 'cause I'd go from ~30 to 4 -_-. The last time they lost data they only half-assed a replacement of it -- you got the IP boosts via support ticket, but they weren't added to your RAF so you didn't get their numbers toward counting to a higher reward. Even then you had to know their exact (account, iirc) names, so it was arduous to collect ~6 weeks worth of missing data. Don't think I ever did find them all.
On April 27 2012 04:23 UniversalSnip wrote: it's pretty easy to get capped for like 1k gold if you're building anything but shurelya's after your gp5. Aegis for example. I rush aegis pretty much every game on aggressive supports like alistar and leona and there's an awkward window where you need to hold a slot open for your wards. That actually reminds me: are we going to get an active on aegis at some point? It's a really boring item just giving the aura passively.
I hope not. Aegis is already one of the best items in the game. It should not be changed.
On April 27 2012 04:25 Unentschieden wrote: A big factor is that Riot avoids certain interactions that are deemed acceptable in Dota. You aren´t really able to "shut down" anyone by dominating them so hard that they get useless. Making midgame items stronger and endgame items more expensive so that a midgame strategy can prevent an endgame strategy from ever accomplishing something may be a solution but it´s not how Riot wants the game to work. It´s similar to all the mechanics that keep the laningphase from being completely gamedeciding.
You mean like how infinite ward buying makes it much harder for junglers/other lanes to influence a losing lane, and much easier for someone who's ahead in lane to keep their advantage? Or how the much more homogenized champion power curves and weaker/narrower timing windows makes it MUCH harder for a team that lost all 3 lanes to stage a comeback? Oh wait.
Saying that LoL's mechanics are less snow-bally and less game-deciding than DotA's is pretty much bullshit. "Win lanes->win game" is a much better description of LoL than it is of DotA.
That isn´t what I said. A team that lost all 3 lanes SHOULD loose quickly. It´s about laneconstelations that completely take a player out of the game if they mess up / pick the wrong hero. LoL is very snowbally but there is never a situation where you´d want to kick an ally that isn´t activly sabotaging the team.
On April 27 2012 05:03 Alaric wrote: DFG "buff"? Dunno. More AP, no mp5 (less interesting for laning phase/rushing, see: Veigar), and the active was badly nerfed too, you gain 0.5%/100 AP and lose flat 10%, which means 2000 AP needed for the active to be as good as previously.
Edit: tho I can see it on Katarina or Vlad for example now, with her burst and his amplified damage. I liked that mp5 on Swain tho.
I'm not sure what you're reading, it says it was increased from 3.5% to 4% per 100 ap. That is a .5% buff per 100 ap.
edit: now I see that it was reduced from 30% to 25%. It would take 1000 ap to recoup its changed damage from before. Given the fact that it's actually useful on all the resourceless ap champions, I'd consider it almost a straight buff.
So basically it's a nerf to DFG's active at any reasonable level of AP. But the active isn't all there is to DFG. It seems a lot more straightforward to build, and if you feel like it you can keep delaying completion and building other Blasting Wand items if the opportunity arises.
Considering I think that AP actually caps at 1000, it is obviously a "nerf." But no one except veigar builds dfg, so can you nerf an item that no one uses?
On April 27 2012 06:00 gtrsrs wrote: I think we can agree that lol just needs MORE items It's so boring that every support is like philo hog shurelia. There should be like 12 viable support items so you have to choose between team ghost or like -auras or a damage nuke or a small ministun or any plethora of other effects they could add. And they should add a bunch of offensive items too, ranged carries should not all have essentially the same build path
Just think it'd be more interesting
I agree that they need to work on ranged carry itemization. Outside of the odd Corki/Ezreal build that attempts to abuse their strong midgames, AD carries build almost identical items in slightly varying orders. I feel like Riot has successfully opened bruiser itemization up with the Atma's nerf + addition of Maw, so with just a few tweaks and maybe one or two new items the same could possibly be done for ranged AD.
At the same time, however, I don't think we really need more support items (though having more wouldn't be a bad thing). The more pressing issue is getting more gold into the pockets of supports so they can buy the items they currently want but can't afford.
On April 27 2012 05:03 Alaric wrote: DFG "buff"? Dunno. More AP, no mp5 (less interesting for laning phase/rushing, see: Veigar), and the active was badly nerfed too, you gain 0.5%/100 AP and lose flat 10%, which means 2000 AP needed for the active to be as good as previously.
Edit: tho I can see it on Katarina or Vlad for example now, with her burst and his amplified damage. I liked that mp5 on Swain tho.
I'm not sure what you're reading, it says it was increased from 3.5% to 4% per 100 ap. That is a .5% buff per 100 ap.
edit: now I see that it was reduced from 30% to 25%. It would take 1000 ap to recoup its changed damage from before. Given the fact that it's actually useful on all the resourceless ap champions, I'd consider it almost a straight buff.
So basically it's a nerf to DFG's active at any reasonable level of AP. But the active isn't all there is to DFG. It seems a lot more straightforward to build, and if you feel like it you can keep delaying completion and building other Blasting Wand items if the opportunity arises.
Considering I think that AP actually caps at 1000, it is obviously a "nerf." But no one except veigar builds dfg, so can you nerf an item that no one uses?
On April 27 2012 05:03 Alaric wrote: DFG "buff"? Dunno. More AP, no mp5 (less interesting for laning phase/rushing, see: Veigar), and the active was badly nerfed too, you gain 0.5%/100 AP and lose flat 10%, which means 2000 AP needed for the active to be as good as previously.
Edit: tho I can see it on Katarina or Vlad for example now, with her burst and his amplified damage. I liked that mp5 on Swain tho.
I'm not sure what you're reading, it says it was increased from 3.5% to 4% per 100 ap. That is a .5% buff per 100 ap.
edit: now I see that it was reduced from 30% to 25%. It would take 1000 ap to recoup its changed damage from before. Given the fact that it's actually useful on all the resourceless ap champions, I'd consider it almost a straight buff.
So basically it's a nerf to DFG's active at any reasonable level of AP. But the active isn't all there is to DFG. It seems a lot more straightforward to build, and if you feel like it you can keep delaying completion and building other Blasting Wand items if the opportunity arises.
Considering I think that AP actually caps at 1000, it is obviously a "nerf." But no one except veigar builds dfg, so can you nerf an item that no one uses?
Ho? Are you sure about that? I remember seeing a screenshot of a karthus with about 1500 ap from deathcap and 5 archangels.
On April 27 2012 04:25 Unentschieden wrote: A big factor is that Riot avoids certain interactions that are deemed acceptable in Dota. You aren´t really able to "shut down" anyone by dominating them so hard that they get useless. Making midgame items stronger and endgame items more expensive so that a midgame strategy can prevent an endgame strategy from ever accomplishing something may be a solution but it´s not how Riot wants the game to work. It´s similar to all the mechanics that keep the laningphase from being completely gamedeciding.
You mean like how infinite ward buying makes it much harder for junglers/other lanes to influence a losing lane, and much easier for someone who's ahead in lane to keep their advantage? Or how the much more homogenized champion power curves and weaker/narrower timing windows makes it MUCH harder for a team that lost all 3 lanes to stage a comeback? Oh wait.
Saying that LoL's mechanics are less snow-bally and less game-deciding than DotA's is pretty much bullshit. "Win lanes->win game" is a much better description of LoL than it is of DotA.
That isn´t what I said. A team that lost all 3 lanes SHOULD loose quickly. It´s about laneconstelations that completely take a player out of the game if they mess up / pick the wrong hero. LoL is very snowbally but there is never a situation where you´d want to kick an ally that isn´t activly sabotaging the team.
The thing is tho, when comparing to DotA, the fact that there's a lot more comeback mechanics like limited wards/smoke+gold loss along with very widely ranged power curves means that what wins games is less about winning lanes and more about game plan and game play. The same is true for LoL, but winning lanes is much bigger factor in what determines who wins the game.
LoL is definitely much more snowbally than DotA.
On April 27 2012 06:00 gtrsrs wrote: I think we can agree that lol just needs MORE items It's so boring that every support is like philo hog shurelia. There should be like 12 viable support items so you have to choose between team ghost or like -auras or a damage nuke or a small ministun or any plethora of other effects they could add. And they should add a bunch of offensive items too, ranged carries should not all have essentially the same build path
Just think it'd be more interesting
I don't think LoL needs more items so much as LoL needs more unique items. All the items in LoL are pretty fucking boring. They're more or less a hodgepodge of random stats mixed in different combinations, which means that you get a pretty linear build path depending on what role you play.
For example, my biggest issue with Athene's item isn't so much that it's UP or OP, but more that it's pretty fucking boring. It's literally an upgraded chalice/codex in every sense of the term. It introduces no new mechanic, no incentive to buy it other than the fact that if I bought a chalice/codex I now have an option to not make it a worthless slot. It's just really damn boring.
I want items that are unique and do stuff, not just give me a bunch of stats. I understand Riot's argument against having really powerful items like Sheepstick and stuff from DotA, but honestly, the items in LoL are just as homogenized, if not more homogeneous than the power curves on the champions. You see more or less identical and cookie cutter build paths on champions because the lack of diverse items means that there's always only going to be one most efficient build.
On April 27 2012 05:03 Alaric wrote: DFG "buff"? Dunno. More AP, no mp5 (less interesting for laning phase/rushing, see: Veigar), and the active was badly nerfed too, you gain 0.5%/100 AP and lose flat 10%, which means 2000 AP needed for the active to be as good as previously.
Edit: tho I can see it on Katarina or Vlad for example now, with her burst and his amplified damage. I liked that mp5 on Swain tho.
I'm not sure what you're reading, it says it was increased from 3.5% to 4% per 100 ap. That is a .5% buff per 100 ap.
edit: now I see that it was reduced from 30% to 25%. It would take 1000 ap to recoup its changed damage from before. Given the fact that it's actually useful on all the resourceless ap champions, I'd consider it almost a straight buff.
So basically it's a nerf to DFG's active at any reasonable level of AP. But the active isn't all there is to DFG. It seems a lot more straightforward to build, and if you feel like it you can keep delaying completion and building other Blasting Wand items if the opportunity arises.
Considering I think that AP actually caps at 1000, it is obviously a "nerf." But no one except veigar builds dfg, so can you nerf an item that no one uses?
Ho? Are you sure about that? I remember seeing a screenshot of a karthus with about 1500 ap from deathcap and 5 archangels.
I remember that as well I think it was Alaric who posted it. I think. 5 AA's and Dcap 1504 ap.
On April 27 2012 05:03 Alaric wrote: DFG "buff"? Dunno. More AP, no mp5 (less interesting for laning phase/rushing, see: Veigar), and the active was badly nerfed too, you gain 0.5%/100 AP and lose flat 10%, which means 2000 AP needed for the active to be as good as previously.
Edit: tho I can see it on Katarina or Vlad for example now, with her burst and his amplified damage. I liked that mp5 on Swain tho.
I'm not sure what you're reading, it says it was increased from 3.5% to 4% per 100 ap. That is a .5% buff per 100 ap.
edit: now I see that it was reduced from 30% to 25%. It would take 1000 ap to recoup its changed damage from before. Given the fact that it's actually useful on all the resourceless ap champions, I'd consider it almost a straight buff.
So basically it's a nerf to DFG's active at any reasonable level of AP. But the active isn't all there is to DFG. It seems a lot more straightforward to build, and if you feel like it you can keep delaying completion and building other Blasting Wand items if the opportunity arises.
Considering I think that AP actually caps at 1000, it is obviously a "nerf." But no one except veigar builds dfg, so can you nerf an item that no one uses?
On April 27 2012 06:12 Unentschieden wrote: That isn´t what I said. A team that lost all 3 lanes SHOULD loose quickly. It´s about laneconstelations that completely take a player out of the game if they mess up / pick the wrong hero.
That's not very true either though. Baseline hero power is such that there's no such thing as a hero getting totally shut out of a game like that. Every hero has really good baseline utility in DotA, and it's actually much easier to get "shut out" in LoL because of there generally being more gold- and level-reliance among all heroes in the pool.
1v3 lanes being playable are a testament to this fact. A hero that has to face a trilane solo is by no means completely sacrificed out of the game. There are plenty of tools for those heroes to catch up in the jungle/etc. and many of them have the baseline utility to contribute to teamfights with only 1-2 ranks in their core skills.
Regardless, this is getting somewhat far from the initial LoL related discussion of itemization. So we ought to get back on topic.
On April 27 2012 06:12 Unentschieden wrote: LoL is very snowbally but there is never a situation where you´d want to kick an ally that isn´t activly sabotaging the team.
I haven't felt this way in DotA any more than I have in LoL.
On April 27 2012 06:25 Ryuu314 wrote: I want items that are unique and do stuff, not just give me a bunch of stats. I understand Riot's argument against having really powerful items like Sheepstick and stuff from DotA, but honestly, the items in LoL are just as homogenized, if not more homogeneous than the power curves on the champions. You see more or less identical and cookie cutter build paths on champions because the lack of diverse items means that there's always only going to be one most efficient build.
Pretty much this.
Simply too many items in LoL are just some simple combination of stats. While you obviously do need some basic items like that, at some point rehashing the same concepts becomes somewhat inane. We wouldn't need "more" items if so many of the items we have weren't just some variation on +stats.
On April 27 2012 06:20 MooMooMugi wrote: How about the long anticipated consumables item slot especially for supports late game when full inventory can't buy wards
I think this is a terrible idea. Map vision vs. itemized fighting strength is a very real and important tradeoff lategame (analogous to TP vs 6th item in DotA). You shouldn't get rid of something that creates real gameplay just because it annoys some people.
On April 27 2012 06:25 phyvo wrote: there is no particular hard cap on AP. Veigar can have infinite AP the same way Sion can have infinite HP and nasus infinite Q damage.
On April 27 2012 06:00 gtrsrs wrote: I think we can agree that lol just needs MORE items It's so boring that every support is like philo hog shurelia. There should be like 12 viable support items so you have to choose between team ghost or like -auras or a damage nuke or a small ministun or any plethora of other effects they could add. And they should add a bunch of offensive items too, ranged carries should not all have essentially the same build path
Just think it'd be more interesting
Lol has a ton of items that either no one or like one hero ever uses - mejais, Ionic Spark, Bloodrazor, malady, nashors, morellos, Banshees veil (how the mighty have fallen hehe), soul shroud, executioners calling, rageblade...
I think the problem is that most of the items in the game are really bland. They just give you boring lumps of stats, and it comes down to a battle of stats and right clicks. I mean, if you had 2 lategame caitlyns happen to chance upon each other, then who wins the fight is set in stone almost before they begin fighting, assuming one doesnt derp horribly, because its just gonna be a battle of stats. The more power is in skill utility and item actives and the less that is in raw stats, steroids and ap scaling the more interesting a fight is, because optimal usage of abilities becomes more important. Yeah Im neglecting all the positioning and target choosing that goes down in teamfights, but the reality of the matter is that that kind of stuff only matters if one team vastly outskills the other, to the point where at the top levels it seems to come down to "who has the bigger weight of stats behind them".
Thats what makes the itemisation really boring too - without interesting actives to choose between on different characters it mostly becomes just a question of optimisation, which forces you down a certain build path because the weight of stats in that build path demands it. I mean, take Zhonyas - an item with a strong active - and see how people will actually adapt their builds away from Roa/Deathcap to pick it up on certain heroes early because it offers something different and situationally more useful than just raw stats. If more items had Zhonyas like actives, maybe more items would be worth considering in different situations.
Even with the stats themselves, you have situations where the items just arent differentiated enough in what they give you. Corki should love Black Cleaver given its synergy with his e and given the way it synergises with his midgame strength, but when was the last time a non qtpie corki got a black cleaver in a professional game? At the end of the day too much of the money you spend on Black Cleaver you spend on the part that is similar to any other damage items - the AD and the Attack Speed - and the amount of flat pen isnt a large enough component of what you're buying, so even in situations where you want to stack pen, for example, its really hard to do so since you're forced to spend absurd amounts of money on AD and attack speed first. It should be possible with the right combo of champions and item choices (say, corki, kayle and nasus with black cleaver on corki and old starks on someone) to create a window where you are super strong before the opponents can get large amounts of armour and start to shut you down - thats how you create interesting timing windows and promote unique strategies, at least imo.
sidenote - the morellos change is a move in the right direction, even if grievous wounds is a pretty boring active.
On April 27 2012 05:03 Alaric wrote: DFG "buff"? Dunno. More AP, no mp5 (less interesting for laning phase/rushing, see: Veigar), and the active was badly nerfed too, you gain 0.5%/100 AP and lose flat 10%, which means 2000 AP needed for the active to be as good as previously.
Edit: tho I can see it on Katarina or Vlad for example now, with her burst and his amplified damage. I liked that mp5 on Swain tho.
I'm not sure what you're reading, it says it was increased from 3.5% to 4% per 100 ap. That is a .5% buff per 100 ap.
edit: now I see that it was reduced from 30% to 25%. It would take 1000 ap to recoup its changed damage from before. Given the fact that it's actually useful on all the resourceless ap champions, I'd consider it almost a straight buff.
So basically it's a nerf to DFG's active at any reasonable level of AP. But the active isn't all there is to DFG. It seems a lot more straightforward to build, and if you feel like it you can keep delaying completion and building other Blasting Wand items if the opportunity arises.
Considering I think that AP actually caps at 1000, it is obviously a "nerf." But no one except veigar builds dfg, so can you nerf an item that no one uses?
ap doesnt cap at 1000, ive had more than 1000 before
On April 27 2012 05:03 Alaric wrote: DFG "buff"? Dunno. More AP, no mp5 (less interesting for laning phase/rushing, see: Veigar), and the active was badly nerfed too, you gain 0.5%/100 AP and lose flat 10%, which means 2000 AP needed for the active to be as good as previously.
Edit: tho I can see it on Katarina or Vlad for example now, with her burst and his amplified damage. I liked that mp5 on Swain tho.
I'm not sure what you're reading, it says it was increased from 3.5% to 4% per 100 ap. That is a .5% buff per 100 ap.
edit: now I see that it was reduced from 30% to 25%. It would take 1000 ap to recoup its changed damage from before. Given the fact that it's actually useful on all the resourceless ap champions, I'd consider it almost a straight buff.
So basically it's a nerf to DFG's active at any reasonable level of AP. But the active isn't all there is to DFG. It seems a lot more straightforward to build, and if you feel like it you can keep delaying completion and building other Blasting Wand items if the opportunity arises.
Considering I think that AP actually caps at 1000, it is obviously a "nerf." But no one except veigar builds dfg, so can you nerf an item that no one uses?
On April 27 2012 05:03 Alaric wrote: DFG "buff"? Dunno. More AP, no mp5 (less interesting for laning phase/rushing, see: Veigar), and the active was badly nerfed too, you gain 0.5%/100 AP and lose flat 10%, which means 2000 AP needed for the active to be as good as previously.
Edit: tho I can see it on Katarina or Vlad for example now, with her burst and his amplified damage. I liked that mp5 on Swain tho.
I'm not sure what you're reading, it says it was increased from 3.5% to 4% per 100 ap. That is a .5% buff per 100 ap.
edit: now I see that it was reduced from 30% to 25%. It would take 1000 ap to recoup its changed damage from before. Given the fact that it's actually useful on all the resourceless ap champions, I'd consider it almost a straight buff.
So basically it's a nerf to DFG's active at any reasonable level of AP. But the active isn't all there is to DFG. It seems a lot more straightforward to build, and if you feel like it you can keep delaying completion and building other Blasting Wand items if the opportunity arises.
Considering I think that AP actually caps at 1000, it is obviously a "nerf." But no one except veigar builds dfg, so can you nerf an item that no one uses?
ap doesnt cap at 1000, ive had more than 1000 before
On April 27 2012 05:03 Alaric wrote: DFG "buff"? Dunno. More AP, no mp5 (less interesting for laning phase/rushing, see: Veigar), and the active was badly nerfed too, you gain 0.5%/100 AP and lose flat 10%, which means 2000 AP needed for the active to be as good as previously.
Edit: tho I can see it on Katarina or Vlad for example now, with her burst and his amplified damage. I liked that mp5 on Swain tho.
I'm not sure what you're reading, it says it was increased from 3.5% to 4% per 100 ap. That is a .5% buff per 100 ap.
edit: now I see that it was reduced from 30% to 25%. It would take 1000 ap to recoup its changed damage from before. Given the fact that it's actually useful on all the resourceless ap champions, I'd consider it almost a straight buff.
So basically it's a nerf to DFG's active at any reasonable level of AP. But the active isn't all there is to DFG. It seems a lot more straightforward to build, and if you feel like it you can keep delaying completion and building other Blasting Wand items if the opportunity arises.
Considering I think that AP actually caps at 1000, it is obviously a "nerf." But no one except veigar builds dfg, so can you nerf an item that no one uses?
No AP cap.
Also, DFG #1 item for CAPTAIN TEEMO!
reported for trolling ;l
ap teemo is the dumbest thing
We won a tourney game with her playing AP teemo and having about 3.5x the farm of the enemy singed. WHAT NOW!?
On April 27 2012 05:03 Alaric wrote: DFG "buff"? Dunno. More AP, no mp5 (less interesting for laning phase/rushing, see: Veigar), and the active was badly nerfed too, you gain 0.5%/100 AP and lose flat 10%, which means 2000 AP needed for the active to be as good as previously.
Edit: tho I can see it on Katarina or Vlad for example now, with her burst and his amplified damage. I liked that mp5 on Swain tho.
I'm not sure what you're reading, it says it was increased from 3.5% to 4% per 100 ap. That is a .5% buff per 100 ap.
edit: now I see that it was reduced from 30% to 25%. It would take 1000 ap to recoup its changed damage from before. Given the fact that it's actually useful on all the resourceless ap champions, I'd consider it almost a straight buff.
So basically it's a nerf to DFG's active at any reasonable level of AP. But the active isn't all there is to DFG. It seems a lot more straightforward to build, and if you feel like it you can keep delaying completion and building other Blasting Wand items if the opportunity arises.
Considering I think that AP actually caps at 1000, it is obviously a "nerf." But no one except veigar builds dfg, so can you nerf an item that no one uses?
ap doesnt cap at 1000, ive had more than 1000 before
On April 27 2012 05:03 Alaric wrote: DFG "buff"? Dunno. More AP, no mp5 (less interesting for laning phase/rushing, see: Veigar), and the active was badly nerfed too, you gain 0.5%/100 AP and lose flat 10%, which means 2000 AP needed for the active to be as good as previously.
Edit: tho I can see it on Katarina or Vlad for example now, with her burst and his amplified damage. I liked that mp5 on Swain tho.
I'm not sure what you're reading, it says it was increased from 3.5% to 4% per 100 ap. That is a .5% buff per 100 ap.
edit: now I see that it was reduced from 30% to 25%. It would take 1000 ap to recoup its changed damage from before. Given the fact that it's actually useful on all the resourceless ap champions, I'd consider it almost a straight buff.
So basically it's a nerf to DFG's active at any reasonable level of AP. But the active isn't all there is to DFG. It seems a lot more straightforward to build, and if you feel like it you can keep delaying completion and building other Blasting Wand items if the opportunity arises.
Considering I think that AP actually caps at 1000, it is obviously a "nerf." But no one except veigar builds dfg, so can you nerf an item that no one uses?
EPT
