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Remember guys, this is the general discussion thread. Keep whine/QQ posts in the appropriate QQ memorial thread! Thanks! |
Yeah I definitely don't think she's terrible (like current Orianna terrible). People haven't really played her since the days of pre-nerf Orianna/Brand getting fed blue, except in low elo in the gib mid -> go roam style. Since then there are lots of strong laners lots of changes (especially the mastery changes).
If Annie is played today she can't be picked early, and her style would be more focused on controlling team fights. She also gets way stronger on teams who can complement with their own cc. It's just not the Annie we're all used to seeing. It's more of a question of why play Annie when there are stronger options for almost all stages in the game.
EDIT: The meta heavily favors APs who have poke/harass, which Annie does not give you. She's like Xin Zhao or Alistar - once you go in, you're committed. The most notable AP that doesn't poke is Ryze, who scales way harder than.
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I think I remember scarra playong Annie a few weeks ago and he said she wasn't actually that terrible and kinda viable in soloq. He was pretty amused rediscovering this champ and her strenghts.
I don't remember what he laned against tho.
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On April 05 2012 04:16 Sandster wrote:
Yeah I definitely don't think she's terrible (like current Orianna terrible). People haven't really played her since the days of pre-nerf Orianna/Brand getting fed blue, except in low elo in the gib mid -> go roam style. Since then there are lots of strong laners lots of changes (especially the mastery changes).
If Annie is played today she can't be picked early, and her style would be more focused on controlling team fights. She also gets way stronger on teams who can complement with their own cc. It's just not the Annie we're all used to seeing. It's more of a question of why play Annie when there are stronger options for almost all stages in the game.
I don't really agree with the "there are stronger options." The ability to insta-kill 2+ clumped squishies is something Annie is unmatched at. Her ability to control post-6 small skirmishes around buffs and dragon is insane with flash+tibbers combo.
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Annie has been played by quite a number of top AP mids in the last few weeks, both on NA and EU.
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On April 05 2012 04:15 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 04:05 Doctorbeat wrote:On April 05 2012 04:01 NeoIllusions wrote:
No, Negatron first is still the best opening vs LB. She does make you itemize MR first otherwise she'll win any and all trades in lane. Or just play Sion vs bursty casters to increase your EHP with shield  You can activate shield when the Leblanc Q is still traveling, which is pretty neat. Of course Sion is a bursty champion with bad late game scaling too, but I've shut down quite a few Leblancs with him. I distinctively recall Regi doing this to Oce in a tournament. Oce picked/sniped LB first from TSM, Regi picked Sion and facerolled. As for Annie, talk more about what matchups she can win. Talk specifics here. She fell out of favor months ago for a reason. A lot of those champs are still around and then some (Ahri, Ziggs)
IEM Kiev Group Stage: TSM vs SK
It is even discussed in the post-game interview: 1:05:00
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On April 05 2012 04:15 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 04:05 Doctorbeat wrote:On April 05 2012 04:01 NeoIllusions wrote:
No, Negatron first is still the best opening vs LB. She does make you itemize MR first otherwise she'll win any and all trades in lane. Or just play Sion vs bursty casters to increase your EHP with shield You can activate shield when the Leblanc Q is still traveling, which is pretty neat. Of course Sion is a bursty champion with bad late game scaling too, but I've shut down quite a few Leblancs with him. As for Annie, talk more about what matchups she can win. Talk specifics here. She fell out of favor months ago for a reason. A lot of those champs are still around and then some (Ahri, Ziggs)
She can beat lots of champions in mid. Karthus, Ryze, Veigar, Orianna, Kennen are all match ups that at least favor her (Kennen is debatable, big debate on the Kennen thread a few months ago about that match up but unless Kennen just runs straight up MR runes and buys early MR she's one of the few champions that can beat Kennen in lane). She struggles against Cassiopeia, Leblanc, Xerath, Brand, and Kassadin especially. She has less than favorable match ups against Ahri, Ziggs, and Sion but can win lane or go even with all three of them if you play right.
Her entire issue is her range in lane. Too many APs have been released that out range her and/or that have tons of mobility. But she's fucking incredible when it comes to ganks as you can very often get a kill from an early gank considering she has one of the longest stuns at level 2-3. She's really good at ganking lanes especially bot lane. She has really strong team fight initiation and counter initiation (if Flash is down you can't initiate as well but it's really hard to initiate a fight against a team with Annie). Prior to the release of all of the newer champions she was one of the strongest laners and had crazy lane control. Just too many new champions that have a leg up on her in lane phase.
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On April 05 2012 04:08 overt wrote:
Honestly even in lanes she gets shit on like Cass or Ahri at level 6 if you don't get behind as Annie you can still kill just about any of the APs who win lane against her ('cept Kassadin if he reacts quickly). She's definitely better at laning than a lot of APs the problem is that practically every AP released since Brand is better at laning than her.
Having played Annie v Cass a fair amount, I can say that I detest that lane so much. While it's true that if you're not too behind by level 6 you can still kill them with Tibbers, the problem is that it's far too easy to fall behind. Since you can only trade while stun is up (and even then, getting hit by Q/W into E spam hurts silly hard) they can always just push the lane and force you to burn spells and mana to keep up in cs. And then you have no ability to trade so you have to play like a scaredy-cat. Trying the stun-up-I-zone-you play is also not possible if they have a jungler with a stun because if you get caught you die since your base HP is one of the lowest of all AP mids.
The only way I've found I can win Cass lanes is by going all in on them very early and trying to snowball from there. Once Cass gets Blue Buff, you lose all control over your lane. And if you can't hit 6 before her and force a bad trade (even if you don't commit with Tibbers) then the risk of dying to a counter-ult-into-E-spam just makes you feel miserable. You can't even try using autoattack harass because her spells out-range you by 200. And don't get me started on her shield...
It's not that the lane match-up is impossible, but you just have to work WAY too hard to eke out even the smallest advantages when a slight misplay loses you the lane. I'm also slightly bitter haha. Of course, the initiate/counter-initiate/follow-up initiate you bring in mid-game fights makes the depressing laning phase feel so worthwhile.
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Cassio does that to a lot of people though. If you want to pick someone with short range and low mobility (like Annie/Ryze) you HAVE to ban Cassio.
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On April 05 2012 04:30 Sandster wrote:
Cassio does that to a lot of people though. If you want to pick someone with short range and low mobility (like Annie/Ryze) you HAVE to ban Cassio.
Not always a choice in solo queue haha. But while Cassi is the most egregious example, any champion with fast wave clearing/pushing power also falls into the same camp (like Brand, Morgana, Galio, etc.) and they're also popular picks. Urgh.
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On April 05 2012 04:32 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 04:30 Sandster wrote:
Cassio does that to a lot of people though. If you want to pick someone with short range and low mobility (like Annie/Ryze) you HAVE to ban Cassio. Not always a choice in solo queue haha. But while Cassi is the most egregious example, any champion with fast wave clearing/pushing power also falls into the same camp (like Brand, Morgana, Galio, etc.) and they're also popular picks. Urgh.
Except Ryze is a really good pick against Morgana. Dunno about other matchups though.
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I mean, people always say "look what Cass/ahri do to her!"
Well, who DOENST get facerolled by Cass. What ap loves going against Kass? Her weak lanes are no weaker than any other ap mid.
No one playes her because the LoL community has tremendous inertia. Its as simple as that. Look at what Froggen does with anivia. How many other mids bother picking her up. Same with Salce and Ori. It doesnt matter if shit is strong or not. People only play what they know/feel like.
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Another, rarely discussed, problem with Annie is her clearing. With only one AOE that doesn't just simply melt minions, and the need to "conserve" your stun. You can't just spam qwqwqwqw to push then go gank.
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Actually that's the only problem I have with her in lane. The saving grace is at least her AA range and animation are pretty good.
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On April 05 2012 04:34 cLutZ wrote:
Another, rarely discussed, problem with Annie is her clearing. With only one AOE that doesn't just simply melt minions, and the need to "conserve" your stun. You can't just spam qwqwqwqw to push then go gank.
280, .75
280, .66
Which clears a wave better?
First is annie w, second is ahri q.
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On April 05 2012 04:38 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 04:34 cLutZ wrote:
Another, rarely discussed, problem with Annie is her clearing. With only one AOE that doesn't just simply melt minions, and the need to "conserve" your stun. You can't just spam qwqwqwqw to push then go gank. 280, .75 280, .66 Which clears a wave better? First is annie w, second is ahri q.
Well the difference is Annie W is pretty short range whereas Ahri Q has hella long range. If you walk up to use Annie W to clear you're going to take a ton of harass. Ahri Q can be used with near-impunity.
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On April 05 2012 04:38 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 04:34 cLutZ wrote:
Another, rarely discussed, problem with Annie is her clearing. With only one AOE that doesn't just simply melt minions, and the need to "conserve" your stun. You can't just spam qwqwqwqw to push then go gank. 280, .75 280, .66 Which clears a wave better? First is annie w, second is ahri q.
I think what he means is that Annie is not mana-efficient at clearing waves. Ahri Q is lower CD and mana at all levels. Furthermore, as Annie you can't mindlessly W waves. If you have your stun up, it's the window of opportunity to trade. However, if they push the lane and you're forced to W it to not fall behind in CS, you're now set back 20+ seconds until the next chance to trade again. That, and the range issues.
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On April 05 2012 04:38 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 04:34 cLutZ wrote:
Another, rarely discussed, problem with Annie is her clearing. With only one AOE that doesn't just simply melt minions, and the need to "conserve" your stun. You can't just spam qwqwqwqw to push then go gank. 280, .75 280, .66 Which clears a wave better? First is annie w, second is ahri q.
Ahri Q has higher range, more than half of the damage is true damage, W is used for wave clearing too and Ahri's spells cost less mana.
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On April 05 2012 04:41 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 04:38 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 05 2012 04:34 cLutZ wrote:
Another, rarely discussed, problem with Annie is her clearing. With only one AOE that doesn't just simply melt minions, and the need to "conserve" your stun. You can't just spam qwqwqwqw to push then go gank. 280, .75 280, .66 Which clears a wave better? First is annie w, second is ahri q. Well the difference is Annie W is pretty short range whereas Ahri Q has hella long range. If you walk up to use Annie W to clear you're going to take a ton of harass. Ahri Q can be used with near-impunity.
Most, if not practically everyone, who plays against an Annie lane tries to push it. Not to mention if Ahri uses Q to kill minions you can just W right after. Not like her E is going to go through your minions and her Q is now on cooldown so no threat of harass.
At like level 7 with 2-3 drings and AP runes Annie clears waves about as fast as other APs and she does it using less mana (notable exceptions are like Morgana and Sion).
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"That is a kill on him! No and he gets away! That ignite on him! And he gets away. And he dies!"
For the Raidcall cup day 2. The excitement is so high, a 1v1 fight is called almost like a teamfight.
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EPT
