EPTInteresting.
[Patch 1.0.0.136: Lulu] General Discussion - Page 191
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dooraven
Australia2820 Posts
Interesting. | ||
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
Extremely strong laners came out, around the time of pre-nerf Orianna and Brand, that basically did just as much damage while being stronger in lane. The class of APs right now are all stronger laners with strong team presence (Ahri, Ziggs, Cassio, Kennen) or weaker early in lane but don't die easily and quickly snowball (Ryze, Swain, Vlad). Annie's short cast range really hurts her in lane. | ||
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Immortall
Netherlands124 Posts
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miicah
Australia2470 Posts
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bmn
886 Posts
On April 05 2012 03:07 overt wrote: Her buffs weren't that out of line to be honest. And her nerfs following her buffs weren't that major at all. Certainly not enough to make a champion go from "omg op" to "omg never play her." Remember that we aren't judging champions on some absolute scale; we only judge them relative to other champions. It doesn't take a lot of balance changes to make one champ slightly inferior to another champ in the majority of situations. Even if the champion is still perfectly /viable/, it makes him a choice that is clearly inferior to another one, and that is all that you need to explain why people would stop playing the champ often. AP Nidalee might still be perfectly viable post heal nerf, but if you're asking about "never play her", the question isn't whether she's viable, but whether someone else is a better choice whenever you'd previously have picked AP Nidalee. (e.g. all-rounders like Cass are almost always good to have on a team, she doesn't have any really weak points in the game. People with weak early games, like Veigar, are a lot more prone to fall out of popularity if people find it too hard/frustrating to reach the late game.) Edit: Yeah, what Sandster said. I find that I often pick Cass just because she's always good to have, and (at my ELO) she never fails her lane hard the way Karthus/Vlad/etc. will if they are counter-picked. She has a strong laning phase /and/ a strong late game; and it's much easier for me to play that in solo queue than to play someone with a stronger late game but terrible early game, if only because I rely less on jungler support. | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
On April 05 2012 03:16 Sandster wrote: Annie absolutely murders low elo games because people don't itemize and play correctly against her. They don't build MR or hp and don't push the lane all the way to the tower, instead sitting in the middle of the lane asking to get nuked. Other lanes also don't ward well, so you can roam all day and get fed. Extremely strong laners came out, around the time of pre-nerf Orianna and Brand, that basically did just as much damage while being stronger in lane. The class of APs right now are all stronger laners with strong team presence (Ahri, Ziggs, Cassio, Kennen) or weaker early in lane but don't die easily and quickly snowball (Ryze, Swain, Vlad). Annie's short cast range really hurts her in lane. Because annie is the only mage that deals magic damage, all the other ones deal damage that doesn't get reduced by MR. | ||
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bmn
886 Posts
On April 05 2012 03:32 JackDino wrote: Because annie is the only mage that deals magic damage, all the other ones deal damage that doesn't get reduced by MR. No, because Annie is one of the mages that deals a very strong burst without giving you a chance to trade immediately. You also would build MR against LB for the same reason: If you survive the burst combo, you'll probably live to escape (or even get a kill). Or did I miss something here... | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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triangle
United States3803 Posts
On April 05 2012 03:38 Alaric wrote: Zzz never trying Irelia against Shen top in the current state. flat armor yellows, flat mr blues, mr quints, 9-21-0, cloth+5, I still got zoned before level 4 because of his sustain/harass and how I can't actively sustain myself. The lane was playable before (and Irelia would win I think) but that sustain cut really hurts far too much early on. I've given up on Irelia in her current state :< | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On April 05 2012 03:35 bmn wrote: No, because Annie is one of the mages that deals a very strong burst without giving you a chance to trade immediately. You also would build MR against LB for the same reason: If you survive the burst combo, you'll probably live to escape (or even get a kill). Or did I miss something here... I believe his point was that itemizing against Annie makes little sense as an argument for why she's good at low levels but not higher levels. For example, if Annie is so strong that you have to build MR or you'll die then she's probably the best AP in the entire game. In reality tankier champions end up building MR regardless at pretty much every skill level. Squishies tend to not get MR until much later even at high level play against Annie. I think Sandster's real point was playing correctly against her. You don't have to itemize against her, you just pick a lane that shits on her (Kassadin, Cassiopeia, Brand, Ahri, Xerath, or Ziggs all do well) and you keep the map warded so she doesn't get fed from ganks because her ganking is pretty damn strong during mid game. If Annie forces you to itemize differently then we'd be seeing a lot more Annie play. But she doesn't force you to itemize any different than other APs imo. | ||
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bmn
886 Posts
On April 05 2012 03:50 overt wrote: I believe his point was that itemizing against Annie makes little sense as an argument for why she's good at low levels but not higher levels. For example, if Annie is so strong that you have to build MR or you'll die then she's probably the best AP in the entire game. In reality tankier champions end up building MR regardless at pretty much every skill level. Squishies tend to not get MR until much later even at high level play against Annie. I think Sandster's real point was playing correctly against her. You don't have to itemize against her, you just pick a lane that shits on her (Kassadin, Cassiopeia, Brand, Ahri, Xerath, or Ziggs all do well) and you keep the map warded so she doesn't get fed from ganks because her ganking is pretty damn strong during mid game. If Annie forces you to itemize differently then we'd be seeing a lot more Annie play. But she doesn't force you to itemize any different than other APs imo. People do itemize differently against LB, though, and many people in lane do have to build MR (or you'll die) -- and she's still not the best AP in the entire game. What's the difference there, then? Or was I just wrong about people building MR earlier against LB? | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
I've just had it thrice in a row. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
If she has stun up and is level 6+ she SEVERELY limits the options that the other team has. Her shortish spell ranges dont even really hurt hur that much: she has one of the longest auto attack ranges in the game to make up for it. I seriously think the only reason we dont see more of her is because no one has actually bothered to figure out how to make her work. I mean, you SERIOUSLY want me to belive she is a weaker laner than ryze, tf, or viegar? Or that she brings less to a midgame fight than anyone else in the game? | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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Keniji
Netherlands2569 Posts
On April 05 2012 03:50 overt wrote: I believe his point was that itemizing against Annie makes little sense as an argument for why she's good at low levels but not higher levels. For example, if Annie is so strong that you have to build MR or you'll die then she's probably the best AP in the entire game. In reality tankier champions end up building MR regardless at pretty much every skill level. Squishies tend to not get MR until much later even at high level play against Annie. I think Sandster's real point was playing correctly against her. You don't have to itemize against her, you just pick a lane that shits on her (Kassadin, Cassiopeia, Brand, Ahri, Xerath, or Ziggs all do well) and you keep the map warded so she doesn't get fed from ganks because her ganking is pretty damn strong during mid game. If Annie forces you to itemize differently then we'd be seeing a lot more Annie play. But she doesn't force you to itemize any different than other APs imo. Not necessarily. High burst high cd champions suffer more from MR. It's a pretty big difference if you need say 2 more q's as ryze or if you aren't able to one-hit as annoe anymore. | ||
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
Contrast this with LB, who hit you from across the screen while taking no damage in return. | ||
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Doctorbeat
Netherlands13241 Posts
On April 05 2012 04:01 NeoIllusions wrote: No, Negatron first is still the best opening vs LB. She does make you itemize MR first otherwise she'll win any and all trades in lane. Or just play Sion vs bursty casters to increase your EHP with shield  You can activate shield when the Leblanc Q is still traveling, which is pretty neat. Of course Sion is a bursty champion with bad late game scaling too, but I've shut down quite a few Leblancs with him. | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On April 05 2012 03:54 bmn wrote: People do itemize differently against LB, though, and many people in lane do have to build MR (or you'll die) -- and she's still not the best AP in the entire game. What's the difference there, then? Or was I just wrong about people building MR earlier against LB? LB is almost all single target. Your bot lane AD carry doesn't build MR against LB. Pretty much only your AP mid does. Few AP mids build MR early against Annie and if they do it doesn't really hurt as much because Annie can still just kill your AD carry and support in dragon fights. If Annie forces your mid to build early MR just like LB it's not as big of a deal because of how much AoE Annie does and because Annie doesn't need to get kills in lane to be effective (LB most definitely does). Combine that with the fact that Annie has a really strong team fight initiation and again it doesn't matter if the opposing AP mid builds MR. Or if the entire enemy team builds MR. Like, if everyone builds MR against Annie or Veigar they can both just initiate fights, almost kill someone and then have your team clean up. LB can't do that. On April 05 2012 03:59 Two_DoWn wrote: I think the biggest problem is that we havent seen annie used proactivly yet. She fell out of favor a few months before buff control became an important part of a mid's job, so people dont realize just how good a job she does at that. If she has stun up and is level 6+ she SEVERELY limits the options that the other team has. Her shortish spell ranges dont even really hurt hur that much: she has one of the longest auto attack ranges in the game to make up for it. I seriously think the only reason we dont see more of her is because no one has actually bothered to figure out how to make her work. I mean, you SERIOUSLY want me to belive she is a weaker laner than ryze, tf, or viegar? Or that she brings less to a midgame fight than anyone else in the game? Honestly even in lanes she gets shit on like Cass or Ahri at level 6 if you don't get behind as Annie you can still kill just about any of the APs who win lane against her ('cept Kassadin if he reacts quickly). She's definitely better at laning than a lot of APs the problem is that practically every AP released since Brand is better at laning than her. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On April 05 2012 03:59 Two_DoWn wrote: I think the biggest problem is that we havent seen annie used proactivly yet. She fell out of favor a few months before buff control became an important part of a mid's job, so people dont realize just how good a job she does at that. If she has stun up and is level 6+ she SEVERELY limits the options that the other team has. Her shortish spell ranges dont even really hurt hur that much: she has one of the longest auto attack ranges in the game to make up for it. I seriously think the only reason we dont see more of her is because no one has actually bothered to figure out how to make her work. I mean, you SERIOUSLY want me to belive she is a weaker laner than ryze, tf, or viegar? Or that she brings less to a midgame fight than anyone else in the game? Agreed. Annie could definitely see some more play nowadays. She only fell out of favor because of the emergence of ridiculously dominating mid laners like pre-nerf Brand and Oriana. Now that those mid lane dominators aren't so common/been nerfed Annie should do fine. She can hold her own against stuff like Vlad, Ryze, Veigar np. It's only against champs who have greater range+better trading that she can't lane against. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On April 05 2012 04:05 Doctorbeat wrote: Or just play Sion vs bursty casters to increase your EHP with shield You can activate shield when the Leblanc Q is still traveling, which is pretty neat. Of course Sion is a bursty champion with bad late game scaling too, but I've shut down quite a few Leblancs with him. I distinctively recall Regi doing this to Oce in a tournament. Oce picked/sniped LB first from TSM, Regi picked Sion and facerolled. As for Annie, talk more about what matchups she can win. Talk specifics here. She fell out of favor months ago for a reason. A lot of those champs are still around and then some (Ahri, Ziggs) | ||
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