EPT
I already have an armor yellows+quints page for annoying people (it has AS reds tho, from when I spammed Irelia).[Patch 1.0.0.136: Lulu] General Discussion - Page 180
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Remember guys, this is the general discussion thread. Keep whine/QQ posts in the appropriate QQ memorial thread! Thanks! | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
I already have an armor yellows+quints page for annoying people (it has AS reds tho, from when I spammed Irelia). | ||
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bmn
886 Posts
On April 04 2012 00:49 ManyCookies wrote: Oh yeah, E restores mana when it's target is killed. That probably helps the mana problem considerably. As an aside, a constant amount of Pen will always increase your DPS by the same amount, regardless of your opponent's resistances. If you have 100 armor shred against a 100 armour target, you'll do twice as much damage as if you had none. If you have it against 200 armour, you'll do twice as much damage as if you had none. Just thought that was interesting. No? If you have 100 armor shred against a 100 armor target, your damage multiplier goes from 1/(1+1) = 1/2 to 1/1 = 1, so you double your damage. If the target has 200 armor, your damage multiplier goes from 1/(1+2) = 1/3 to 1/(1+1) = 1/2, so you do *not* double your damage, you only increase it by 50%, not 100%. (Edit: Just for completeness, going from 0 armor to -100 armor changes multiplier from 1 to 2-(1/(1-1)) = 1.5, so that's a 50% increase again. The highest relative DPS increase with 100 armor shred is when your target has 100 armor.) | ||
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dooraven
Australia2820 Posts
lol Also CLGeu scrimming TSM atm: http://www.own3d.tv/live/112350/CLG_Snoopeh | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
On April 04 2012 02:12 bmn wrote: No? If you have 100 armor shred against a 100 armor target, your damage multiplier goes from 1/(1+1) = 1/2 to 1/1 = 1, so you double your damage. If the target has 200 armor, your damage multiplier goes from 1/(1+2) = 1/3 to 1/(1+1) = 1/2, so you do *not* double your damage, you only increase it by 50%, not 100%. (Edit: Just for completeness, going from 0 armor to -100 armor changes multiplier from 1 to 2-(1/(1-1)) = 1.5, so that's a 50% increase again. The highest relative DPS increase with 100 armor shred is when your target has 100 armor.) Another way to look at it: With 0 armor: take 100% damage (takes 1 hit to kill you) With 100 armor: take 50% damage (takes 2 hits to kill you) With 200 armor: take 33% damage (takes 3 hits to kill you) With 300 armor: take 25% damage (takes 4 hits to kill you) Even though it seems like the jump from 100->200 is smaller, relative to the "full damage", you're still reducing just as much damage from increasing armor from 0 -> 100 as from 100 -> 200. The diminishing return factor is somewhat of an illusion because you're still gaining a comparable amount of EHP no matter how much armor you buy. | ||
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miicah
Australia2470 Posts
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BlackMagister
United States5834 Posts
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Doctorbeat
Netherlands13241 Posts
On April 04 2012 02:36 BlackMagister wrote: TSM don't stream before IPL to keep practice secret, play famous team that streams. Granted they also stopped streaming so they wouldn't be distracted by having to manage their stream or people listening to what strategy and rage they say in team speak. TSM looking pretty good this game though... so far. | ||
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shrinkmaster
Germany947 Posts
On April 04 2012 02:43 Doctorbeat wrote: TSM looking pretty good this game though... so far. still suck at teamfights though XD | ||
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ManyCookies
1164 Posts
On April 04 2012 02:12 bmn wrote: No? If you have 100 armor shred against a 100 armor target, your damage multiplier goes from 1/(1+1) = 1/2 to 1/1 = 1, so you double your damage. If the target has 200 armor, your damage multiplier goes from 1/(1+2) = 1/3 to 1/(1+1) = 1/2, so you do *not* double your damage, you only increase it by 50%, not 100%. (Edit: Just for completeness, going from 0 armor to -100 armor changes multiplier from 1 to 2-(1/(1-1)) = 1.5, so that's a 50% increase again. The highest relative DPS increase with 100 armor shred is when your target has 100 armor.) Oh, the formula I had was incorrect. Disregard that, should have just checked the Wiki. | ||
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daemir
Finland8662 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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TheKefka
Croatia11752 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On April 04 2012 02:57 Alaric wrote: I'm not too sure that I like that Frozen Heart rush by Snoopeh. There isn't any autoattacking champ in TSM's comp, except maybe WW. Urgot is the only physical damage dealer on the other hand. It hits ww and udyr too. Especially when you consider that phoenix udyr is going to derive most of his damage from hitting things quickly to proc his shit. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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emucxg
Finland4559 Posts
lv13 warwick vs lv15 naut | ||
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
On April 04 2012 02:28 Juicyfruit wrote: Another way to look at it: With 0 armor: take 100% damage (takes 1 hit to kill you) With 100 armor: take 50% damage (takes 2 hits to kill you) With 200 armor: take 33% damage (takes 3 hits to kill you) With 300 armor: take 25% damage (takes 4 hits to kill you) Even though it seems like the jump from 100->200 is smaller, relative to the "full damage", you're still reducing just as much damage from increasing armor from 0 -> 100 as from 100 -> 200. The diminishing return factor is somewhat of an illusion because you're still gaining a comparable amount of EHP no matter how much armor you buy. People really need to understand how armor and armor pen work. It's the concept of effective health, which is a different concept from damage done/taken. The incremental damage you reduce from resistances does not matter. Effective health is how much "raw damage" you can take, and directly translates into how many seconds you can survive. Let's use a simple example of a generic tank with 1000 hp, and is getting auto attacked by a generic AD with 100 AD, 1.0 AS, and 0 armor pen. Your tank's armor and how much punishment he takes before dying: 0 armor: 100 dmg/hit, 10 hits, survive 10 secs (Effective Health = 1000) 100 armor: 50 dmg/hit, 20 hits, survive 20 secs (EH 1000/0.5 = 2000) 200 armor: 33 dmg/hit, 30 hits, survive 30 secs (EH 1000/0.33 = 3000) 300 armor: 25 dmg/hit, 40 hits, survive 40 secs (EH 1000/0.25 = 4000) Even though the incremental damage mitigated reduces with higher armor (i.e. 100->50 is a larger reduction than 50->33 for the same 100 additional points of armor), your effective health linearly increases per point of armor, and so does the *time you stay alive*, which is the true test of how "tanky" you are. Now if the AD has 100 armor pen vs if they have: 0 armor: 100 dmg/hit, 10 hits, survive 10 sec (armor pen completely wasted) 100 armor: 100 dmg/hit, 10 hits, survive 10 secs 200 armor: 50 dmg/hit, 20 hits, survive 20 secs So if they have 100 armor, you reduce their EH by half (survival time reduced 20->10), and if they have 200 armor, you only reduce their EH by 50% (survival time reduced 30->20). This is why flat reduction is better vs lower armor targets. Whereas % penetration is a % reduction in effective health regardless of their armor value. | ||
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bmn
886 Posts
On April 04 2012 02:28 Juicyfruit wrote: Another way to look at it: With 0 armor: take 100% damage (takes 1 hit to kill you) With 100 armor: take 50% damage (takes 2 hits to kill you) With 200 armor: take 33% damage (takes 3 hits to kill you) With 300 armor: take 25% damage (takes 4 hits to kill you) Even though it seems like the jump from 100->200 is smaller, relative to the "full damage", you're still reducing just as much damage from increasing armor from 0 -> 100 as from 100 -> 200. The diminishing return factor is somewhat of an illusion because you're still gaining a comparable amount of EHP no matter how much armor you buy. That's not the same thing the original post was about, though. Let's say you have 100 base AD and the target has 1000 HP (just for the sake of simple illustration). Compare the amount of HP loss the target suffers from your attack, with you having 0 armor penetration vs 100 armor penetration: At 100 armor, 50 HP vs 100 HP. At 200 armor, 33.333... HP vs 50 HP. At 300 armor, 25 HP vs 33.333... HP. Flat armor penetration does have diminishing returns as the targets gain more armor. [Edit: removed badly worded last sentence] | ||
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bmn
886 Posts
On April 04 2012 03:06 Sandster wrote: Now if the AD has 100 armor pen vs if they have: 0 armor: 100 dmg/hit, 10 hits, survive 10 sec (armor pen completely wasted) 100 armor: 100 dmg/hit, 10 hits, survive 10 secs 200 armor: 50 dmg/hit, 20 hits, survive 20 secs This is incorrect, apen is not wasted if the target has 0 armor. See http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor#Damage_reduction | ||
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
On April 04 2012 03:21 bmn wrote: This is incorrect, apen is not wasted if the target has 0 armor. See http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor#Damage_reduction You're talking about armor reduction. Penetration cannot reduce resistances below 0. | ||
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bmn
886 Posts
On April 04 2012 03:23 Sandster wrote: You're talking about armor reduction. Penetration cannot reduce resistances below 0. Ouch, my bad, I didn't realize that. Thanks. (I specifically thought that penetration was the one that could reduce below 0, and reduction wasn't. Heh.) | ||
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