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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content. Thanks. Happy Gaming. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On March 08 2012 14:39 TwoToneTerran wrote: Design a stick that can pick up the ball and walk it there! Oh wait they have rules on what kind of sticks you can use. <3 Lacross ![[image loading]](http://www.flaghouse.com/prod_images/P15215.jpg) If I could play golf with a lacross stick I'd be gooooood. | ||
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BlackPaladin
United States9316 Posts
On March 08 2012 14:31 UniversalSnip wrote: as far as what I like and don't like competitively the only thing I don't like is that there are so few kills at the top level. curse vs tsm was a really good game and they were averaging one kill every 8 minutes until well into the game. that's just awful, it makes things excruciatingly boring to watch two guys sustaining at each other for 10 minutes or two guys with blue buff just clearing waves at each other for 10 minutes. But you can't control players playing safe.  | ||
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Craton
United States17250 Posts
Suffice to say there is no esport that doesn't require the viewer to have a basic understanding ahead of time. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On March 08 2012 14:47 BlackPaladin wrote: But you can't control players playing safe. Sure you can, you could make jungle spawn timers much smaller and each camp worth less gold/experience so that there is less time for junglers to do things aside from farming. That ought to create more aggression right? On March 08 2012 14:51 Craton wrote: You might know the goal of a fighting game is for one guy to make the other's HP reach 0, but that's barely relevant. What makes that time of game exciting to watch is understanding combos and timing and blocking/parrying, etc. FPS games are obviously kill the other team and maybe complete a simple objective (capture a flag, plant a bomb), but uninitiated viewers can't see beyond one guy shooting another to follow the positioning of e.g. pincering certain places, shooting through certain walls at certain times for certain reasons, etc. RTS games are even worse since all an uninformed viewer understands is one guy trying to kill the other, but no idea about unit comps, expanding, etc. Suffice to say there is no esport that doesn't require the viewer to have a basic understanding ahead of time. I would go a step further and say all sports require the viewer to have a briefing of what is going on. I've taken too many girls to hockey games to think otherwise. And I live in the land of hockies, we have hockey on our money for heavans sake... | ||
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jadoth
694 Posts
On March 08 2012 14:54 iCanada wrote: Sure you can, you could make jungle spawn timers much smaller and each camp worth less gold/experience so that there is less time for junglers to do things aside from farming. That ought to create more aggression right? \ I would go a step further and say all sports require the viewer to have a briefing of what is going on. I've taken too many girls to hockey games to think otherwise. i think mma is intuitive enough to not need explanation. | ||
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daemir
Finland8662 Posts
On March 08 2012 14:54 iCanada wrote: Sure you can, you could make jungle spawn timers much smaller and each camp worth less gold/experience so that there is less time for junglers to do things aside from farming. That ought to create more aggression right? I would go a step further and say all sports require the viewer to have a briefing of what is going on. I've taken too many girls to hockey games to think otherwise. And I live in the land of hockies, we have hockey on our money for heavans sake... Hear hear, if someone took me to what americans call football ![[image loading]](http://www.gleason.to/leech/handegg.jpg) I would need a lot of explaining on what's this thing they doing coz it surely ain't football! | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On March 08 2012 15:02 jadoth wrote: i think mma is intuitive enough to not need explanation. Orly? ![[image loading]](http://mmastreamed.com/wp-content/uploads/mvbthumbs/img_57896_mmae29885e38395e383ade383b3e38388e38381e383a7e383bce382afe3818be38289e381aee884b1e587ba.jpg) If you uninitiated you would probably think the guy on top is winning or in the very least in an advantageous position, when really he is caught in a submission called an Omniplata and just surrendered because the pain was too unbearable. | ||
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rob.au
1087 Posts
As a competitive game LoL is completely fine, all that really matters for a competitive game is that reaching the skill cap is not really achievable. Obviously the difference in skill between Flash and some rank 1000 BW player is a lot more than the #1 league player vs some 1900, but there is still a difference. This was actually one of the aspects of a competitive game that ArenaNet commented on with regards to the original Guild Wars vs WoW pvp. Whilst a lot of people agree the pvp in GW1 was actually far superior to WoW, it had a harder learning curve and a wider skill gap between teams which they felt made it less enticing for a lot of players. In regards to LoL the point im making is that there is not much of a skill gap between each level of players, and people tend to like that. In terms of depth, when I play dota or hon it really does feel to me like they do have more depth than LoL. It's hard for me to really give a fair comparison of the two though because there's a lot to do in LoL and it may just feel like there's less depth because I've figured it out more. I am inclined to say they do have more depth than LoL though just because the heroes are more diverse, more risk/reward, objectives are less clear, items are more diverse, and it seems as though this leads to more variety in nearly every aspect of the game. Maybe someone else like Yango can give a better opinion here. Looking at competitive play I do think LoL is less entertaining and I think most people accept at the top level it really isn't as entertaining as we would like. A lot of games are just so passive, and I think people like Southlight as well as Chu have touched on issues such as how the map is constructed, unlimited wards, junglers etc...In my opinion because of these things LoL is basically stuck how it is now unless Riot make relatively major changes like they did with the jungle. Having said that the game is obviously thriving so it's obviously not the be and end all, I've concluded that since I prefer dota/hon I've just gone to play them rather than campaign for major changes to league. Just so people know where my point of view comes from I was 1950 on NA season1, was active in SEA LoL tourneys and I'm 1750 post-compression MMR in hon (if that means anything to anyone ) | ||
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
On March 08 2012 14:51 Craton wrote: You might know the goal of a fighting game is for one guy to make the other's HP reach 0, but that's barely relevant. What makes that time of game exciting to watch is understanding combos and timing and blocking/parrying, etc. FPS games are obviously kill the other team and maybe complete a simple objective (capture a flag, plant a bomb), but uninitiated viewers can't see beyond one guy shooting another to follow the positioning of e.g. pincering certain places, shooting through certain walls at certain times for certain reasons, etc. RTS games are even worse since all an uninformed viewer understands is one guy trying to kill the other, but no idea about unit comps, expanding, etc. Suffice to say there is no esport that doesn't require the viewer to have a basic understanding ahead of time. I'm talking more about visual presentation than anything else. i don't know any combos for any fighting game, I don't know any timings either. Hell, I haven't even played many fighting games and certainly haven't played any for more than a dozen hours or so. Still doesn't stop me from enjoying high-level sf4 tournament games, because it's intuitively and visually obvious what's going on. A block and a punch are things that anyone, regardless of prior knowledge, can relate to and understand. In RTS's, battles are typically visually clear when someone executes better troop movement and/or have a bigger army. There are exceptions and intricacies one might miss, but they're not as fundamental aspects of gameplay as positioning is, expanding and unit comps are simply extraneous mechanics that feed into the idea of troop play. It's the same with the chess analogy. Movements are visually obvious and are at the very core of the competitive gameplay, SC2's other gameplay mechanics like expanding and unit comps are all extra parts of the puzzle that feed into the core gameplay that is 2 armies fighting each other. This occurs a lot in LoL as well, seeing the players move in a coordinated fashion is skill that is visually appreciable and contributes a lot to the spectator aspect of the game, and hence why it's a good esport. The problem that I was trying to point out was spell interactions, which aren't necessarily as obvious to the uninitiated, are almost equally core to the dynamic of a teamfight as movement and positioning are. In comparison to to SC2's battles, the results of LoL's can sometimes seem a bit arbitrary. FPS's can be a bit more tricky, as I stated, since sometimes the objectives aren't totally clear, but I don't really watch much FPS's, so I don't have a lot to say about it. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On the issue of games requiring "skill," there's almost no argument that mechanically, RTS>MOBA. In terms of mechanical skill BW>SC2>DotA>LoL. But honestly, mechanics isn't everything; it's a very small part (except in BW lololol). When it comes down to it, the fact that MOBAs are team games make it so that the complexity/strategic depth is easily on-par or can even surpass that of RTS simply because there are more variables in the game. | ||
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
On March 08 2012 14:54 iCanada wrote: Sure you can, you could make jungle spawn timers much smaller and each camp worth less gold/experience so that there is less time for junglers to do things aside from farming. That ought to create more aggression right? I would go a step further and say all sports require the viewer to have a briefing of what is going on. I've taken too many girls to hockey games to think otherwise. And I live in the land of hockies, we have hockey on our money for heavans sake... ehhh, I'm not sure about that. To enjoy football, for example, all you really need to be told is that the players can't touch the ball with their hands, and even then, after watching for maybe 10 mins you can get that players can't pick up the ball without being told. And in any case, it wasn't even my point that sports shouldn't have burden of knowledge. All competitive games have a burden of knowledge, otherwise they wouldn't be games, but some have a higher burden than others. I am simply of the opinion that MOBA's are a bit higher than some of their contemporaries. edit: and the reason why it matters is that if an uninitiated person can grasp the basic gameplay elements by simply watching, then they're probably more likely to pursue the sport as a spectator. How much of a probably is not something I'm qualified to answer, only in that I feel like i'm right (and if i'm not i'd be glad to hear why not), and even then, it's clearly not a big enough deal to prevent something from becoming a sport. | ||
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{ToT}ColmA
Japan3260 Posts
 (offtopic..i wanna see more vayne players :3 | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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chalice
United States1945 Posts
On March 08 2012 15:06 iCanada wrote: Orly? If you uninitiated you would probably think the guy on top is winning or in the very least in an advantageous position, when really he is caught in a submission called an Omniplata and just surrendered because the pain was too unbearable. really should have just called it a "submission" and left it at that | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On March 08 2012 15:28 barbsq wrote: I'm talking more about visual presentation than anything else. i don't know any combos for any fighting game, I don't know any timings either. Hell, I haven't even played many fighting games and certainly haven't played any for more than a dozen hours or so. Still doesn't stop me from enjoying high-level sf4 tournament games, because it's intuitively and visually obvious what's going on. A block and a punch are things that anyone, regardless of prior knowledge, can relate to and understand. In RTS's, battles are typically visually clear when someone executes better troop movement and/or have a bigger army. There are exceptions and intricacies one might miss, but they're not as fundamental aspects of gameplay as positioning is, expanding and unit comps are simply extraneous mechanics that feed into the idea of troop play. It's the same with the chess analogy. Movements are visually obvious and are at the very core of the competitive gameplay, SC2's other gameplay mechanics like expanding and unit comps are all extra parts of the puzzle that feed into the core gameplay that is 2 armies fighting each other. This occurs a lot in LoL as well, seeing the players move in a coordinated fashion is skill that is visually appreciable and contributes a lot to the spectator aspect of the game, and hence why it's a good esport. The problem that I was trying to point out was spell interactions, which aren't necessarily as obvious to the uninitiated, are almost equally core to the dynamic of a teamfight as movement and positioning are. In comparison to to SC2's battles, the results of LoL's can sometimes seem a bit arbitrary. FPS's can be a bit more tricky, as I stated, since sometimes the objectives aren't totally clear, but I don't really watch much FPS's, so I don't have a lot to say about it. Well, now we're at "What is good for spectators and what is easy to follow for non-die-hard-fans?" Personally I think it's incredibly hard to make a game where a random person can understand why a certain play was awesome as hell. Honestly, a lot I learned about why certain games are better to spectate and some aren't comes from watching stuff with my gf together. Q3/4: Apparently it looks weird as fuck because it's hard to follow the movements. Controlling items and timing isn't obvious either. BUT (and I think this is already enough) a random person gets the BAM HEADSHOT-moments. You see how someone is pressured as fuck when behind and tries to come back. You see one guy dominating over and over and over again and then - for whatever reason - you see things turn around. Also stuff like getting a rail off where you as the spectator didn't even see the enemy with a kill message afterwards is damn impressive. CS: While the whole strategy that comes with buying and who goes where when and why isn't something obvious you still get the BAM HEADSHOT moments, but a random spectator still gets a certain understanding from the tactical depth from the minimap. You can watch people moving and anticipate that 5vs3 where 2 people have to run from the other side of the map to help out will result in something awesome. The minimap (and the fact that it's rather dominant in specmodes) makes a random spectator appreciate the game at a deeper level compared to e.g. Q3. SCBW: Here it starts, imo, with the real problems. For someone who has never seen it before I think it's not understandable at all. However, a short explanation about what does what and why instantly makes it way more interesting. "Zerg are fast and mobile so he will try to occupy more resources than the terran before he can stop him." / "Those mines there are invisible and he didn't see them being placed." ... Dropship micro? Reavers? PLAGUUUUUUUUU!!!!!? oov's perfect marine split? - All stuff that is not understandable at all if you haven't played games like this. On the bright side, the games visuals are SO CRISP AND CLEAR that after a short explanation you're usually fine. "That's a storm that does damage" / "That cloud means only melee units can do damage." is all a random person needs to know about spells. SC2: Similar to the above, however from my experience with people who have no clue about it's worse than SCBW for spectators because the graphics are more flashy but less obvious (compare e.g. storms) and the unit "stacking" means you see less clearly who is doing what where and why. LoL/DotA 2: Champions. Spells. SO MANY. Yeah, you can see that one dude does damage from the back and shoots at things, you can see one dude throwing big spells around and you see some dudes hitting each other in the face. But that's it. To get to the point where I feel like the person next to me understands what's going on I need to give short infos about which spell does what. I need to explain roles. Imagine seeing CS from a top down view but instead of "everyone has a gun" it looks like "everyone jumped out of some random novel/rpg and does it's own shit". The only way to make a good spectator game out of this is to make visuals very clear and imo, riot does a good job there most of the time. Garen ult. Anivia wall. Tibbers. That stuff is easy to appreciate. Some of the (still damn important but less obvious) stuff like Irelia stun, Maokai ult, Cassiopeia Q/E combos are the hard parts for spectators who aren't into the game. Where League is imo superior to DotA 2 for spectators is in it's basic design and layout. The jungle and map setup makes "more sense" to someone who hasn't seen this stuff before. The (atm rather stagnant) metagame makes understanding roles easier. If you e.g. compare how buffs work compared to how runes work it's just easier to get wtf is going on. A huge bonus for DotA 2 and something I never even thought about before my gf told me she finds DotA 2 teamfights easier to understand (I was like "wtf? so much random shit going on and you can't even see enough because of the !&% big UI") is that the rather dark map and background has a huge contrast to flashy spells. Where in League everything is in a similar color scheme the general "darkness" makes stuff stand out more. Also for various reasons DotA teamfights have a tendency to be more spread out, so instead of a 5n5 you see a 2v1 and a 3v4. While in theory the same happens in League the bigger models in DotA combined with the on average larger range of stuff and the smaller field of view makes this factor stand out more. From a PLAYER perspective I find League way, way more obvious and understandable than DotA 2, but that's a different topic. PS: Considering commentating is a big part of what makes something a spectator game and what not... fuck, League needs commentators like this Tobi Wan dude from DotA 2. SERIOUSLY. First time ever I feel reminded of korean commentators in BW. Edit: LOL COMPLETELY FORGOT MY MAIN POINT. The problem with mobas/arts/whatever the fuck you call it is that imo you need to know WAY more about them compared to RTS/FPS to appreciate them. Basic intro to competetive Q3/CS takes less than 3 minutes. The basic concept of "these dudes build resources and armies and kill each other" including which unit does what is done in 10 minutes for starcraft, but here you already have to explain certain plays while pausing it. For mobas you have more units, more spells and most of the plays aren't understandable if you only know how few things interact (rines vs lings under darkswarm vs a good teamfight). PPS: Whichever commentator on this planet starts showing teamfights in slowmotion with an in-depth explanation of shit instead of talking about who has how much CS and who is trying to kill whos tower harder will be #1 in my heart. If he explains shit badly I suggest the usual Lux laughter punishment. Every fucking "real" spectator sport has it, why don't we? | ||
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
On March 08 2012 15:50 {ToT}ColmA wrote: why make a science out of it...play what is fun (offtopic..i wanna see more vayne players :3 iunno, i think it's a good thought exercise to try to identify what makes a competitive game and what makes spectator sports. I'm just throwing out some of my half-baked opinions and thoughts to provoke some interesting discussion (kus I'm a total fucking nerd and think about this kind of shit all the time )edit: Well, now we're at "What is good for spectators and what is easy to follow for non-die-hard-fans?" i think accessibility is important for a spectator sport and the two are very much related | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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Bwaaaa
Australia969 Posts
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
The only reason why it succeeds is huge playerbase. Not anything else. I watched the Defense because I played ~100 DotA 2 games in the last months but god knows I would never have watched DotA before that. I tried. Just couldn't. | ||
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