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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
On March 07 2012 08:59 Parnage wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 08:54 sob3k wrote:On March 07 2012 08:43 Parnage wrote:
AD kennen is not a thing. It shouldn't be a thing and it's a kind of thing that borders on pointless. Why people think it's worthwhile I just don't understand. AD kennen can be carried with a support nunu or a gp or something or someone who can give him a steroid. Otherwise he ends up doing no real damage.
All the stuns in the teamfight mean very little when the guy supposed to do the damage isn't doing any damage. At least jungle kennen's can argue a gank potential of stuns. AD kennen is just silly. If you enjoy it, more power to you but AD kennen is pretty much a troll pick. Judging by the fact that AD kennen has actually had tourney play, and very successfully at that, I would say you are just flat out wrong. M5 won Kiev because of support nunu, Jungle shyvanna and just overall strong play in comparison to what the other teams offered at the time(if memory serves Dig's new jungler being.. NEW, TSM having internal issues, and teams like Fnatic, CLG.EU,CLG just not showing up/not qualifying.) I am not trying to take anything away from M5 I am proud of them and what they've done but laying down the victory at kiev due to AD kennen play is just flat out wrong. I'll go so far to say I didn't even see AD kennen doing much in those games in the first place. Just because a champion can work doesn't mean he can't be replaced by better options. You can jungle Alistar and do really well with him but he isn't the best jungler and he has flaws. AD kennen has flaws. I dislike the fact that AD kennen has become a thing, If you enjoy playing him and play him well again I say to you "more power and have fun" I don't like it and I am not going to like it because I just feel his flaws as an AD carry is not worthwhile considering his strengths as an AP.
his strength as an ap has nothing to do with how good an ad carry he is. in fact him being a good ap makes him a stronger ad because it makes him a more ambiguous pick. yes ad ken has flaws, just like every other champion in every other role. you can not like it all you want, but saying it is a troll pick is not true and saying he deals no damage is just flat out false.
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On March 07 2012 08:43 Parnage wrote:
AD kennen is not a thing. It shouldn't be a thing and it's a kind of thing that borders on pointless. Why people think it's worthwhile I just don't understand. AD kennen can be carried with a support nunu or a gp or something or someone who can give him a steroid. Otherwise he ends up doing no real damage.
All the stuns in the teamfight mean very little when the guy supposed to do the damage isn't doing any damage. At least jungle kennen's can argue a gank potential of stuns. AD kennen is just silly. If you enjoy it, more power to you but AD kennen is pretty much a troll pick.
EDIT: I took a long time writing this because I stopped to eat dinner after I had originally started. I didn't read the people who already responded and hence this comes across as ragging on someone after their post was thoroughly responded to. I am not a jerk, i promise.
I don't play AD kennen, and I personally don't think AD is the best way to play him.
However, one of the better professional LoL teams recently used AD kennen in a tournament with a cash prize, and seems to consider him something other than a "troll pick". If you are still unable to assess the possible merits of AD kenn in light of that fact you are simply being ignorant.
I am not saying you have to come to the same conclusion. It is entirely reasonable to think AD kennen isn't the strongest pick or the best way to play him. If you refuse to even consider the possible merits of the opposite opinion, though, your opinion doesn't hold much weight.
It reminds me when I watched a lot of professional BW and Flash lost a number of games going 14CC. I read so many people claiming 14CC is a dumb build and that it should never be used. ummm, hello? The best BW player of all time who plays countless games has seen merit in the build and obviously has a reason for using it. While it may have been the wrong decision, to call it a bad build is ignorance.
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On March 07 2012 08:59 Parnage wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 08:54 sob3k wrote:On March 07 2012 08:43 Parnage wrote:
AD kennen is not a thing. It shouldn't be a thing and it's a kind of thing that borders on pointless. Why people think it's worthwhile I just don't understand. AD kennen can be carried with a support nunu or a gp or something or someone who can give him a steroid. Otherwise he ends up doing no real damage.
All the stuns in the teamfight mean very little when the guy supposed to do the damage isn't doing any damage. At least jungle kennen's can argue a gank potential of stuns. AD kennen is just silly. If you enjoy it, more power to you but AD kennen is pretty much a troll pick. Judging by the fact that AD kennen has actually had tourney play, and very successfully at that, I would say you are just flat out wrong. I don't like it and I am not going to like it because I just feel his flaws as an AD carry is not worthwhile considering his strengths as an AP.
Not liking it is fine, your reasoning isn't correct, though. If want to judge his strength as an AD carry, you'll have to compare him to other AD carries instead of saying he's better off built AP. While that might be true, it doesn't matter if he still does his job as an AD carry better than any other AD carry out there. Not saying that's the case, it's just that your argument made little sense.
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Hey guys,
I was wondering - I'm not that good but steadily improving - which junglers can carry the hardest when the team is completely fucking up and feeding and losing lanes hard?
Lee Sin comes to mind, but while I feel that I have his basics down he is much too hard to play (for me!!!) on a level where he unfolds his potential (hitting that Q... qq). Then I was thinking about Gangplank, AD/MS steroid, global ult, free (sort of) cleanse, slow and Q does good dmg/applies on hit effects at range. What do you guys think?
While other champs like Rammus, Udyr, Skarner have good ganks, I don't feel like I'm able to carry on them. Any other champs than can carry hard out of the jungle?
Edit: Mundo comes to mind for mid-game dominance or AD Sion?
Thanks and have a great day guys!
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To be honest, kennen probably isn't a top AD in most situations. He's a very strong pick though, considering he's one of the few champions in the game who can go in any of the three lanes. You can pick AD kennen, and then if you decide halfways through the draft that you don't like the matchup bot, you put kennen in another lane and pick yourself a traditional AD carry.
Btw, who saw AD Ahri today in IEM? Do you think it has any chance of becoming as accepted (relatively) as AD kennen?
Insane mobility from ulti, self-peel from charm and strong laning because of early game dmg from spells.
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Yes the best players in the world can do some really risky really dangerous things and get away with it and make it work. However just because it can work doesn't mean it's not highly risky and has flaws(to use your own example plenty of games where those 14CC openings didn't pay off but that didn't stop him from being called a God).
I don't see AD kennen as the reason they won. A part? Yes, of course but I feel that what he does anyone of the normal ad's can do just as well. In short they would of won because they played better not because of the AD kennen. Perhaps I am just not seeing the insane genius of AD Kennen, sorry but I am not.
I honestly didn't expect this much of a strong pro AD kennen reaction. Downright scary.
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Regardless of how good Ahri does in lane (at bot), you have no scaling to lategame at all. At least Kennen has above average range and a (small) amount of AD scaling. 550 doesn't cut it, not with only AP ratios to work with. AD Kennen and the like would really only work if you had a plan to completely manhandle the earlygame and create a really impressive advantage.
Udyr works really well for controlling the game if you get fed a bit...get an oracles and keep the lanes down for as long as possible. Gangplank works for just farming jungle for a while.
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On March 07 2012 09:22 Parnage wrote:
I honestly didn't expect this much of a strong pro AD kennen reaction. Downright scary.
People are trying to put across he's not a TROLL pick and that your reasoning for not liking him makes no sense.
I still don't understand your post by the way. I think your feelings towards AD Kennen are irrationally strong. Sure he has flaws, sure he is risky, but that applies to a lot of very, very good champions. Irelia comes to mind.
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On March 07 2012 09:22 Parnage wrote:
Yes the best players in the world can do some really risky really dangerous things and get away with it and make it work. However just because it can work doesn't mean it's not highly risky and has flaws(to use your own example plenty of games where those 14CC openings didn't pay off but that didn't stop him from being called a God).
I don't see AD kennen as the reason they won. A part? Yes, of course but I feel that what he does anyone of the normal ad's can do just as well. In short they would of won because they played better not because of the AD kennen. Perhaps I am just not seeing the insane genius of AD Kennen, sorry but I am not.
I honestly didn't expect this much of a strong pro AD kennen reaction. Downright scary.
The strong reaction isn't necessarily because people disagree so strongly, but because of the way you phrased your earlier post.
There is a big difference between "AD kennen is a troll pick," and "AD kennen has its flaws." Your earlier post seemed to entirely dismiss AD kennen without even addressing the possible advantages.
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some food for thought, maybe I'm completely wrong, but it sounds good to me at least.
I think people just started realizing that IE+PD+vamp is good enough to crush anyone that isn't 200 armor. natural steroids don't mean much after you get those two items.
everyone blows ults, then you need someone to clean up. it doesn't matter if you can clean up faster, so long as you have enough to clean up. games generally aren't getting to the point where someone is so tanky that extra AS matters, and if it does, you're ignoring that person anyways. Positioning and the initial ults decide the fight long before the AD damage starts to matter. (imo part of the reason graves is so strong, and ashe is still viable despite no steroids)
Extension of the "snowball meta", why even play AD carries when you can just have a random AP snowball some early fights and just build AD with the extra gold. If the other guy bot is a bunch of cs and a death behind, it doesn't matter if you have a suboptimal ranged AD. Same reason you bring heal now.
maybe we'll actually see a shift away from ad+support bot. I can only hope
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Regarding carry jungles: Jax and Warwick
Regarding AD Kennen: If AP Yi gets to be a thing, AD Kennen gets to be a thing. It might not be optimal but this is a GAME for crying out loud. If its fun. I'm for it. And AD Kennen is fun.
Regarding M5: They won because they had the balls to do new stuff on a big stage. Bottom line.
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On March 07 2012 09:26 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 09:22 Parnage wrote:
I honestly didn't expect this much of a strong pro AD kennen reaction. Downright scary. People are trying to put across he's not a TROLL pick and that your reasoning for not liking him makes no sense. I still don't understand your post by the way. I think your feelings towards AD Kennen are irrationally strong. Sure he has flaws, sure he is risky, but that applies to a lot of very, very good champions. Irelia comes to mind.
Okay let's talk about the downside to Kennen as Attack Damage.
He lack's a Steroid, Every AD Carry worth his or her salt has some way of increasing his attack damage or they offer a benefit that outweighs the lack of this Steroid. Ashe with her slow and stun, Corkie and Caitlyn with the range and poke potential.
Kennen trades his steroid for a stun. A one second stun that has Diminishing returns and is cut to .5 seconds if applied twice within 7 seconds.
He has 1 AD scaling ability. That's his W's passive damage done on the 5th attack. Again a really good ability but only if you are attacking quickly and in many cases he won't be. You have to build a team around him that can give him that much needed Attack Speed. This is why Nunu/Kennen worked so well because he got to build damage and get a free Phantom Dancer from Blood boil. So of course he's not going to do horrid when you give him an ideal lane partner. The converse of this is that other AD's -don't- need Nunu to make a really good bottom lane.
His R, will do 650 damage max to a player with t3 ult. That's really good but then you see that with Ap those numbers will quickly scale up and the chance of surviving a AD Kennen ult and an AP Kennen Ult becomes clear. However as we want to keep this to only comparing his strength and weakness to other AD carries we'll forget about that.
How is that far better then the 1,200 range of Corki's Missiles that do Aoe Dmg and can rival that damage and do it from far away or Tristana's 500 damage and at t3 has a 1,000 range knockback that can hit multiple people.
I am not seeing how Kennen is so much better he has a stun, he runs in and hit's R and he can auto. Saying he can use his ult and still attack isn't any more advantage then saying Sivir can give her team a buff and still auto attack by hitting R.
Kennen is not a Troll pick I used too strong a word. I am sorry. However he's not nearly as good as the other AD carries.
Blargh going to go finish watching the ESL games, if you want to continue this just message me. This really belongs in the Kennen thread at this point.
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On March 07 2012 09:22 Parnage wrote:
Yes the best players in the world can do some really risky really dangerous things and get away with it and make it work. However just because it can work doesn't mean it's not highly risky and has flaws(to use your own example plenty of games where those 14CC openings didn't pay off but that didn't stop him from being called a God).
I don't see AD kennen as the reason they won. A part? Yes, of course but I feel that what he does anyone of the normal ad's can do just as well. In short they would of won because they played better not because of the AD kennen. Perhaps I am just not seeing the insane genius of AD Kennen, sorry but I am not.
I honestly didn't expect this much of a strong pro AD kennen reaction. Downright scary.
Okay here's something to think about. What if the enemy team is something like, Poppy jungle, Akali mid Irelia top? Who's the safest AD pick? Kennen is pretty much the only one who can protect himself well enough to not instantly die. Kennen definitely has his place. He has high range, amazing base aspd and base dmg and aspd growth, and some really nice stun comboes to make him win 1v1 vs numerous other AD carries. He's weak in the lategame in damage output, yes, but he can protect himself better than any other AD carry Caitlyn included, and his dps is also higher than Caitlyn's.
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"benefit that outweighs lack of a steroid"
you mean like a stun?
oh and the passive on kennens w is effectively a weak steroid.
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On March 07 2012 09:29 petered wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 09:22 Parnage wrote:
Yes the best players in the world can do some really risky really dangerous things and get away with it and make it work. However just because it can work doesn't mean it's not highly risky and has flaws(to use your own example plenty of games where those 14CC openings didn't pay off but that didn't stop him from being called a God).
I don't see AD kennen as the reason they won. A part? Yes, of course but I feel that what he does anyone of the normal ad's can do just as well. In short they would of won because they played better not because of the AD kennen. Perhaps I am just not seeing the insane genius of AD Kennen, sorry but I am not.
I honestly didn't expect this much of a strong pro AD kennen reaction. Downright scary. The strong reaction isn't necessarily because people disagree so strongly, but because of the way you phrased your earlier post. There is a big difference between "AD kennen is a troll pick," and "AD kennen has its flaws." Your earlier post seemed to entirely dismiss AD kennen without even addressing the possible advantages.
Moreover, that sort of statement places a huge emphasis on the subjective opinion of the individual poster while casting negative implications on anyone who disagrees. Such an extremely stated opinion is akin to a feral, rampaging animal in the street; even people who typically love the animal are going to either run away or work collectively to contain the creature.
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A benefit would IMO be for instance having the best base aspd and base AD out of any ad carry? And also the fact he can stun every few seconds and actually deal tons of damage by using all his skills(while being impossible to catch and to run away from)
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I'd rather pick Flash/Cleanse Ezreal than go for an AD Kennen pick...
Flash/Cleanse/QSS/Mercs Ezreal is pretty hilariously impossible to lock down.
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omg i love all the champs free this week, all the guys i promise to save up for but never buy
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I've always perceived the lack of AD Kennen as being a product of it being somewhat akward to play, and people not really bothering to experiment with it as much.
There's nothing WRONG with it. The game is complex enough that if you can rationalize a character's strength then chances are it's going to be worthwhile in at least some cases
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On March 07 2012 10:05 Ryrk wrote:
I'd rather pick Flash/Cleanse Ezreal than go for an AD Kennen pick...
Flash/Cleanse/QSS/Mercs Ezreal is pretty hilariously impossible to lock down.
Ever play vs Poppy?
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EPT
