On March 16 2012 11:37 Two_DoWn wrote: Mundo: .03 base as, .3 as per level, .5 mr/lvl. Health cost on W cut by 10 at all levels. 10 sec on ulti. Biggest change: health cost on W. Significant, but I dont think it is the difference between him being shit tier and him being a top jungle pick. In all likelyhood this was just a case of no one tried him in jungle before M5.
Kennen: (last big buff): .09 ratio increase on w. .05 on e. 20 energy cost reduced at max rank on E. Nothing significant here.
Koggles: First time as the op (over a year ago): No buffs, just nerfs. Second time (Slightly more recent): 4 uptime increase on w, then reduced to 2. I contend all it did was get people to play him again, hence the reason for the revert- still used in Hannover after.
Lee Sin: IIRC he was considered shit for a good 3 months, even after the hotfixes. He wasnt played until they found the double damage e bug.
Morde: dont try to argue that. He was barely touched between his remake and the sheild gutting in September.
Morg: Was played before they overbuffed her.
Riven: We have argued this before. The hotfixes did not take her from shit tier to overpowered. Westrice did.
Skarner: Meh, proably true. 15 mana was lulzy overpowered. However, if you look at where he is now to where he was on release, it isnt too different, and he is still played in tourneys.
Vlad: Depends on if you give credit to salce playing him before the transfuse changes. I do.
Ali: You forgot about the roam meta where ali went from shit tier to god. Then the remake, then people stopped playing him after the subsequent nerfs, now Snoopeh jungles him.
Corki: Are you kidding? Corki disappeared for a good 6 months. He only came back recently when they threw a few "look I am still here!" changes at him.
Janna: No play for 6 months, although this was due to Soraka/sona being ridiculous.
Leona: Seeing WAY more play now than she ever has. Just look at Hannover.
Shyv: If this was true I wouldnt have had about 50 GD posts raving about shvyana prior to Kiev, then another 50 raging about how M5 made her popular.
Sion: Goes in and out constantly as people remember he is there. Happened a year ago, then it happened again like 3-4 months ago when regi picked him up again.
Yorick: Went from "trash tier" to picked in tournaments (again, I maintain that the buffs did not put him there, merely pushed him over the top, but even then people left him alone for a long time). Remember the IEM where he was banned near permanently so you couldnt run Vayne/yorick?
Champs cycle frequently at the whims of the community. What happens is people try to attach seeing them get buffed in patchnotes to returns to relevance, even if the changes are minute. It is one of the few ways you can actually gain credibility for playing a champion everyone considers useless, even if the changes dont do jack. Just like how you get flamed for playing champions who get non consequential nerfs.
So what you're saying, is that as minor buffs and nerfs happen, changes in their play are seen? Isn't that exactly what I said was the case?
You also(except in 1 case) completely ignore changes to other champions, or something like say, the biggest change to the game ever(the jungle), as impetus for a champions rise/fall in popularity.
I'm still waiting for the OVER 1 YEAR of ignored champion play without major balance change, that was your original statement so it seems perfectly acceptable for me to want a proper rebuttal no?
My main problem with what you said was your gigantic exaggeration because you do it in a good majority of your content filled posts/arguments; it doesn't help the argument to throw out ridiculous hyperbole, like trying to assert that JANNA has apparently not been a significant presence in competitive play over the entire history of the game.
... and yes I still maintain that Xerath will not see competitive play until he is either buffed(which probably won't happen because he's not woefully bad, such is Riot's balancing design) or Cass/Ryze/Morg and probably some others see nerfs(that will be what it takes for him to see competitive play, whether you think he deserves it now or not is a different argument, even if it's one we do disagree on).
Also, I really want to harp one one of your examples so bad: Kog received AN INCREDIBLE BUFF when he became 'the OP,' mostly in the form of his bugged Q passive. When they fixed the bug he immediately dropped back down to the same level or worse in comparison to other AD's, which is why he actually then get buffed again(and was really OP again with his 10s uptime on BAB), and then nerfed to where he is now: properly balanced sometimes picked AD who has a distinctive power curve.
I think your blowing the whole thing a bit out of proportion. There might be a bit of a hyperbole by saying that no changes were made, but heroes definitely gain and loose popularity. Whether this is due to shifts in strategy or people getting bored with them is hard to say.
Maybe it is a bit of both? People get bored and decide to try something new, that actually turns out to be better. Overall and that is the common complaint of everybody I have the feeling, is that the development at the tournament level is a bit too sluggish when it comes to strategy or for a lack of a better word metagame.
So I don't exactly understand why your getting so riled up about that. T_D says much more controversial things then: "The community needs to experiment more."
First, that's not the comment that started the debate(or at least not for me). Second, tournament level play is not shifted because of 'boredom.' Third, you somewhat helped make my point, so I thank you sir.
Third: Nope, you made my point. You're not arguing with T_D because of what he is saying but because you seem to have a problem with the general way that he argues and that just doesn't belong here in my opinion.
No, what you quoted is an extension of an argument that started discussing Xerath specifically, not 'champions coming in and out of play,' but thanks for your opinion.
We dont know WHEN kog's passive got bugged out. But even when it was, it still took him quite a bit to become popular the first time around. Remember how everyone tried to play him ap the first time around? Ad was a troll build until people realized it was really strong. But it wasnt nearly as immediate as you are trying to make it.
If you look at it, this board is generally pretty good about picking up on stuff that is op as well. Shyvana, Kennen, Yorick were all picked up on by members of the community well before they saw play in the tournament scene.
And ya, tournament play is dictated by boredom, how comfortable people are with champions, and how much fun they have with champions. Its why salce is the only one who plays Oriana. Its why HSGG still plays Nidalee. Its why Ziggs and Ahri saw a lot of play off the bat (fun champions), but one of the reasons champs like Ori and Anivia arent played as much. At this point in professional play picks and bans are largely determined by what people are good at, which is a function of what they like to play. If you just went purely by what was strongest, Yorick would be must pick/ban every game.
On March 16 2012 11:37 Two_DoWn wrote: Mundo: .03 base as, .3 as per level, .5 mr/lvl. Health cost on W cut by 10 at all levels. 10 sec on ulti. Biggest change: health cost on W. Significant, but I dont think it is the difference between him being shit tier and him being a top jungle pick. In all likelyhood this was just a case of no one tried him in jungle before M5.
Kennen: (last big buff): .09 ratio increase on w. .05 on e. 20 energy cost reduced at max rank on E. Nothing significant here.
Koggles: First time as the op (over a year ago): No buffs, just nerfs. Second time (Slightly more recent): 4 uptime increase on w, then reduced to 2. I contend all it did was get people to play him again, hence the reason for the revert- still used in Hannover after.
Lee Sin: IIRC he was considered shit for a good 3 months, even after the hotfixes. He wasnt played until they found the double damage e bug.
Morde: dont try to argue that. He was barely touched between his remake and the sheild gutting in September.
Morg: Was played before they overbuffed her.
Riven: We have argued this before. The hotfixes did not take her from shit tier to overpowered. Westrice did.
Skarner: Meh, proably true. 15 mana was lulzy overpowered. However, if you look at where he is now to where he was on release, it isnt too different, and he is still played in tourneys.
Vlad: Depends on if you give credit to salce playing him before the transfuse changes. I do.
Ali: You forgot about the roam meta where ali went from shit tier to god. Then the remake, then people stopped playing him after the subsequent nerfs, now Snoopeh jungles him.
Corki: Are you kidding? Corki disappeared for a good 6 months. He only came back recently when they threw a few "look I am still here!" changes at him.
Janna: No play for 6 months, although this was due to Soraka/sona being ridiculous.
Leona: Seeing WAY more play now than she ever has. Just look at Hannover.
Shyv: If this was true I wouldnt have had about 50 GD posts raving about shvyana prior to Kiev, then another 50 raging about how M5 made her popular.
Sion: Goes in and out constantly as people remember he is there. Happened a year ago, then it happened again like 3-4 months ago when regi picked him up again.
Yorick: Went from "trash tier" to picked in tournaments (again, I maintain that the buffs did not put him there, merely pushed him over the top, but even then people left him alone for a long time). Remember the IEM where he was banned near permanently so you couldnt run Vayne/yorick?
Champs cycle frequently at the whims of the community. What happens is people try to attach seeing them get buffed in patchnotes to returns to relevance, even if the changes are minute. It is one of the few ways you can actually gain credibility for playing a champion everyone considers useless, even if the changes dont do jack. Just like how you get flamed for playing champions who get non consequential nerfs.
So what you're saying, is that as minor buffs and nerfs happen, changes in their play are seen? Isn't that exactly what I said was the case?
You also(except in 1 case) completely ignore changes to other champions, or something like say, the biggest change to the game ever(the jungle), as impetus for a champions rise/fall in popularity.
I'm still waiting for the OVER 1 YEAR of ignored champion play without major balance change, that was your original statement so it seems perfectly acceptable for me to want a proper rebuttal no?
My main problem with what you said was your gigantic exaggeration because you do it in a good majority of your content filled posts/arguments; it doesn't help the argument to throw out ridiculous hyperbole, like trying to assert that JANNA has apparently not been a significant presence in competitive play over the entire history of the game.
... and yes I still maintain that Xerath will not see competitive play until he is either buffed(which probably won't happen because he's not woefully bad, such is Riot's balancing design) or Cass/Ryze/Morg and probably some others see nerfs(that will be what it takes for him to see competitive play, whether you think he deserves it now or not is a different argument, even if it's one we do disagree on).
Also, I really want to harp one one of your examples so bad: Kog received AN INCREDIBLE BUFF when he became 'the OP,' mostly in the form of his bugged Q passive. When they fixed the bug he immediately dropped back down to the same level or worse in comparison to other AD's, which is why he actually then get buffed again(and was really OP again with his 10s uptime on BAB), and then nerfed to where he is now: properly balanced sometimes picked AD who has a distinctive power curve.
I think your blowing the whole thing a bit out of proportion. There might be a bit of a hyperbole by saying that no changes were made, but heroes definitely gain and loose popularity. Whether this is due to shifts in strategy or people getting bored with them is hard to say.
Maybe it is a bit of both? People get bored and decide to try something new, that actually turns out to be better. Overall and that is the common complaint of everybody I have the feeling, is that the development at the tournament level is a bit too sluggish when it comes to strategy or for a lack of a better word metagame.
So I don't exactly understand why your getting so riled up about that. T_D says much more controversial things then: "The community needs to experiment more."
First, that's not the comment that started the debate(or at least not for me). Second, tournament level play is not shifted because of 'boredom.' Third, you somewhat helped make my point, so I thank you sir.
Third: Nope, you made my point. You're not arguing with T_D because of what he is saying but because you seem to have a problem with the general way that he argues and that just doesn't belong here in my opinion.
No, what you quoted is an extension of an argument that started discussing Xerath specifically, not 'champions coming in and out of play,' but thanks for your opinion.
I'm still waiting for the OVER 1 YEAR of ignored champion play without major balance change, that was your original statement so it seems perfectly acceptable for me to want a proper rebuttal no?
That is what I was referring to. You seem to have started to discuss Xerath but widened it into a general discussion about underused champions. I don't know a lot about Xerath because I don't play him, so I can't specifically give an opinion about his viability.
What I'm arguing is that:
a) There seem to be champions that fall in and out of flavor, something that you seem to contest? I'm not even sure about that.
b) You seem to like to use ad hominem arguments, which I strongly dislike. And since you claimed, that I was supporting you, I wanted to set the record straight
My main problem with what you said was your gigantic exaggeration because you do it in a good majority of your content filled posts/arguments;
I bolded the part that I'm specifically referring to.
On March 16 2012 21:56 Two_DoWn wrote: Last couple points I will make on this subject:
We dont know WHEN kog's passive got bugged out. But even when it was, it still took him quite a bit to become popular the first time around. Remember how everyone tried to play him ap the first time around? Ad was a troll build until people realized it was really strong. But it wasnt nearly as immediate as you are trying to make it.
No, we realy do know when it got bugged out: the day they implemented it(it wasn't a passive aspd buff when he was released, which is when people were trying to play him AP 'the first time around).
Literally the day that change happened people picked up MBR Kog and started DESTROYING, with IE/LW Kog being 'discovered' a little bit later(people were stuck on the idea that stacking madreds+BAB+aspd was the best even though you built no mpen, and the Koreans started building him IE/LW like any other AD carry).
They fixed the passive, he then fell back down to planet earth with the rest of the carries, maybe a step below, until his duration buff on BAB(doubled the uptime almost).
This point is so much more cut and dry than any of the others, which is why I specifically wanted to point it out.
And ya, tournament play is dictated by boredom, how comfortable people are with champions, and how much fun they have with champions. Its why salce is the only one who plays Oriana. Its why HSGG still plays Nidalee. Its why Ziggs and Ahri saw a lot of play off the bat (fun champions), but one of the reasons champs like Ori and Anivia arent played as much. At this point in professional play picks and bans are largely determined by what people are good at, which is a function of what they like to play. If you just went purely by what was strongest, Yorick would be must pick/ban every game.
I'll concede that, I suppose my comment is more about what tourney play should/shouldn't be dictated by and isn't very accurate to the current stage of this community.
On March 16 2012 11:37 Two_DoWn wrote: Mundo: .03 base as, .3 as per level, .5 mr/lvl. Health cost on W cut by 10 at all levels. 10 sec on ulti. Biggest change: health cost on W. Significant, but I dont think it is the difference between him being shit tier and him being a top jungle pick. In all likelyhood this was just a case of no one tried him in jungle before M5.
Kennen: (last big buff): .09 ratio increase on w. .05 on e. 20 energy cost reduced at max rank on E. Nothing significant here.
Koggles: First time as the op (over a year ago): No buffs, just nerfs. Second time (Slightly more recent): 4 uptime increase on w, then reduced to 2. I contend all it did was get people to play him again, hence the reason for the revert- still used in Hannover after.
Lee Sin: IIRC he was considered shit for a good 3 months, even after the hotfixes. He wasnt played until they found the double damage e bug.
Morde: dont try to argue that. He was barely touched between his remake and the sheild gutting in September.
Morg: Was played before they overbuffed her.
Riven: We have argued this before. The hotfixes did not take her from shit tier to overpowered. Westrice did.
Skarner: Meh, proably true. 15 mana was lulzy overpowered. However, if you look at where he is now to where he was on release, it isnt too different, and he is still played in tourneys.
Vlad: Depends on if you give credit to salce playing him before the transfuse changes. I do.
Ali: You forgot about the roam meta where ali went from shit tier to god. Then the remake, then people stopped playing him after the subsequent nerfs, now Snoopeh jungles him.
Corki: Are you kidding? Corki disappeared for a good 6 months. He only came back recently when they threw a few "look I am still here!" changes at him.
Janna: No play for 6 months, although this was due to Soraka/sona being ridiculous.
Leona: Seeing WAY more play now than she ever has. Just look at Hannover.
Shyv: If this was true I wouldnt have had about 50 GD posts raving about shvyana prior to Kiev, then another 50 raging about how M5 made her popular.
Sion: Goes in and out constantly as people remember he is there. Happened a year ago, then it happened again like 3-4 months ago when regi picked him up again.
Yorick: Went from "trash tier" to picked in tournaments (again, I maintain that the buffs did not put him there, merely pushed him over the top, but even then people left him alone for a long time). Remember the IEM where he was banned near permanently so you couldnt run Vayne/yorick?
Champs cycle frequently at the whims of the community. What happens is people try to attach seeing them get buffed in patchnotes to returns to relevance, even if the changes are minute. It is one of the few ways you can actually gain credibility for playing a champion everyone considers useless, even if the changes dont do jack. Just like how you get flamed for playing champions who get non consequential nerfs.
So what you're saying, is that as minor buffs and nerfs happen, changes in their play are seen? Isn't that exactly what I said was the case?
You also(except in 1 case) completely ignore changes to other champions, or something like say, the biggest change to the game ever(the jungle), as impetus for a champions rise/fall in popularity.
I'm still waiting for the OVER 1 YEAR of ignored champion play without major balance change, that was your original statement so it seems perfectly acceptable for me to want a proper rebuttal no?
My main problem with what you said was your gigantic exaggeration because you do it in a good majority of your content filled posts/arguments; it doesn't help the argument to throw out ridiculous hyperbole, like trying to assert that JANNA has apparently not been a significant presence in competitive play over the entire history of the game.
... and yes I still maintain that Xerath will not see competitive play until he is either buffed(which probably won't happen because he's not woefully bad, such is Riot's balancing design) or Cass/Ryze/Morg and probably some others see nerfs(that will be what it takes for him to see competitive play, whether you think he deserves it now or not is a different argument, even if it's one we do disagree on).
Also, I really want to harp one one of your examples so bad: Kog received AN INCREDIBLE BUFF when he became 'the OP,' mostly in the form of his bugged Q passive. When they fixed the bug he immediately dropped back down to the same level or worse in comparison to other AD's, which is why he actually then get buffed again(and was really OP again with his 10s uptime on BAB), and then nerfed to where he is now: properly balanced sometimes picked AD who has a distinctive power curve.
I think your blowing the whole thing a bit out of proportion. There might be a bit of a hyperbole by saying that no changes were made, but heroes definitely gain and loose popularity. Whether this is due to shifts in strategy or people getting bored with them is hard to say.
Maybe it is a bit of both? People get bored and decide to try something new, that actually turns out to be better. Overall and that is the common complaint of everybody I have the feeling, is that the development at the tournament level is a bit too sluggish when it comes to strategy or for a lack of a better word metagame.
So I don't exactly understand why your getting so riled up about that. T_D says much more controversial things then: "The community needs to experiment more."
First, that's not the comment that started the debate(or at least not for me). Second, tournament level play is not shifted because of 'boredom.' Third, you somewhat helped make my point, so I thank you sir.
Third: Nope, you made my point. You're not arguing with T_D because of what he is saying but because you seem to have a problem with the general way that he argues and that just doesn't belong here in my opinion.
No, what you quoted is an extension of an argument that started discussing Xerath specifically, not 'champions coming in and out of play,' but thanks for your opinion.
I'm still waiting for the OVER 1 YEAR of ignored champion play without major balance change, that was your original statement so it seems perfectly acceptable for me to want a proper rebuttal no?
That is what I was referring to. You seem to have started to discuss Xerath but widened it into a general discussion about underused champions. I don't know a lot about Xerath because I don't play him, so I can't specifically give an opinion about his viability.
What I'm arguing is that:
a) There seem to be champions that fall in and out of flavor, something that you seem to contest? I'm not even sure about that.
b) You seem to like to use ad hominem arguments, which I strongly dislike. And since you claimed, that I was supporting you, I wanted to set the record straight
My main problem with what you said was your gigantic exaggeration because you do it in a good majority of your content filled posts/arguments;
I bolded the part that I'm specifically referring to.
You're taking the 2nd quote out of context. T_D's defense is that Xerath is simply still in the stage where he is 'unnoticed.' My counter was that he has been out for almost 5 months, which is an extremely long time for a champion to go 'unnoticed' without any balance changes(suggesting he is just not going to get magically discovered, IMO). T_D then counter argued that there have been champions that have gone over 1 year without a balance change dictating their change in play, which is still in the context of the Xerath argument and a point I contest to still show my argument that his 5 month gap of non-committed play shows that he is indeed not OP or sleeper OP, he is in fact just not that great.
You are right that my other comment was perhaps a little lowball, but with this argument happening so soon after the jungle+top lane discussion in which he used the same argument 'style,' I was irritated and pointed it out that he uses hyperbole and exaggerates his points far too often in these arguments/debates.
Purely speculation(for funsies), that m5 made a joke along the lines of 'NA teams will ban us from tourneys now because we steal all their money' and it got mistranslated.
On March 16 2012 21:56 Two_DoWn wrote: Last couple points I will make on this subject:
We dont know WHEN kog's passive got bugged out. But even when it was, it still took him quite a bit to become popular the first time around. Remember how everyone tried to play him ap the first time around? Ad was a troll build until people realized it was really strong. But it wasnt nearly as immediate as you are trying to make it.
If you look at it, this board is generally pretty good about picking up on stuff that is op as well. Shyvana, Kennen, Yorick were all picked up on by members of the community well before they saw play in the tournament scene.
And ya, tournament play is dictated by boredom, how comfortable people are with champions, and how much fun they have with champions. Its why salce is the only one who plays Oriana. Its why HSGG still plays Nidalee. Its why Ziggs and Ahri saw a lot of play off the bat (fun champions), but one of the reasons champs like Ori and Anivia arent played as much. At this point in professional play picks and bans are largely determined by what people are good at, which is a function of what they like to play. If you just went purely by what was strongest, Yorick would be must pick/ban every game.
You're overstating Yorick's strength. If he were actually at the must pick/ban level, people would be playing him. Enough people find winning itself super fun that they could get over playing Yorick if he were actually on the same level as Shen.
oh god, where am I? did I just defend Yorick bashing?
On March 16 2012 21:56 Two_DoWn wrote: Last couple points I will make on this subject:
We dont know WHEN kog's passive got bugged out. But even when it was, it still took him quite a bit to become popular the first time around. Remember how everyone tried to play him ap the first time around? Ad was a troll build until people realized it was really strong. But it wasnt nearly as immediate as you are trying to make it.
If you look at it, this board is generally pretty good about picking up on stuff that is op as well. Shyvana, Kennen, Yorick were all picked up on by members of the community well before they saw play in the tournament scene.
And ya, tournament play is dictated by boredom, how comfortable people are with champions, and how much fun they have with champions. Its why salce is the only one who plays Oriana. Its why HSGG still plays Nidalee. Its why Ziggs and Ahri saw a lot of play off the bat (fun champions), but one of the reasons champs like Ori and Anivia arent played as much. At this point in professional play picks and bans are largely determined by what people are good at, which is a function of what they like to play. If you just went purely by what was strongest, Yorick would be must pick/ban every game.
You're overstating Yorick's strength. If he were actually at the must pick/ban level, people would be playing him. Enough people find winning itself super fun that they could get over playing Yorick if he were actually on the same level as Shen.
oh god, where am I? did I just defend Yorick bashing?
I think you did. Have you ingested any strange substances lately? Have you been getting enough sleep?
On March 16 2012 21:56 Two_DoWn wrote: Last couple points I will make on this subject:
We dont know WHEN kog's passive got bugged out. But even when it was, it still took him quite a bit to become popular the first time around. Remember how everyone tried to play him ap the first time around? Ad was a troll build until people realized it was really strong. But it wasnt nearly as immediate as you are trying to make it.
If you look at it, this board is generally pretty good about picking up on stuff that is op as well. Shyvana, Kennen, Yorick were all picked up on by members of the community well before they saw play in the tournament scene.
And ya, tournament play is dictated by boredom, how comfortable people are with champions, and how much fun they have with champions. Its why salce is the only one who plays Oriana. Its why HSGG still plays Nidalee. Its why Ziggs and Ahri saw a lot of play off the bat (fun champions), but one of the reasons champs like Ori and Anivia arent played as much. At this point in professional play picks and bans are largely determined by what people are good at, which is a function of what they like to play. If you just went purely by what was strongest, Yorick would be must pick/ban every game.
You're overstating Yorick's strength. If he were actually at the must pick/ban level, people would be playing him. Enough people find winning itself super fun that they could get over playing Yorick if he were actually on the same level as Shen.
oh god, where am I? did I just defend Yorick bashing?
I think you did. Have you ingested any strange substances lately? Have you been getting enough sleep?
It's gotta be all the duoing with Dphat he's been doing, clearly some kind of negative influence.
duoing with dphat is a hugely positive influence. makes solo queue much more fun, less tilting, good times.
I haven't been sleeping super great though, maybe that's it...
but seriously, Yorick is terrible design and completely stomps a ton of characters in the most boring and skill-less way possible, but..... he's still going to lose top lane to, at the very least, Udyr, Shen and Irelia and they're some of the most popular tourney picks for that lane.
I don't like that people talk about power in a vacuum. Everything in LoL is relative; most champions are close enough in power levels that any champion can do well in any game, but there are times when some are better/more popular picks because they're more flexible champions.
Remember the Cait/Kog era a few months ago? Sona/Soraka? The other ADs and supports aren't *bad*, and relatively unchanged since then, but relative to the big 4, they take way more effort to play at a consistent level. You can say "but I knew XXX was good!" all you want, but the fact is that it's much easier to play Cait/Sona than pretty much any other lane, and fit it into almost any team comp.
That's not to say Xerath is a bad champion. He's not - he has roles that he excels at. But due to how limited team practice is in general, people tend to pick champions that they play well, and fit into a variety of teams. Xerath can do well, but he's not the universal AP like Morg/Kennen/Ahri/Cassio/Ryze/Ziggs that can do well no matter what, and he's also not a counterpick like LB and Swain can be. In other words, relative to other APs, he's at best an AVERAGE champion overall, and average simply doesn't cut it in a competitive landscape.
I'm sure someone can take Xerath, play him like a god, and everyone flocks to him (maybe if Chauster kept playing). Think Anivia is it weren't for Froggen. Everyone knew Anivia *can* be good, but you never saw one, because a combination of lack of interest, time, skill, motivation, and the fact that most people would rather pick up someone else in the available time.
Of course there are teams that innovate, but for the most part LoL is a very stagnant game based on bad practice habits and lack of features like replays to move the metagame forward.
Edit: Getting replays out is going to be the single best thing that happens to the competitive community in LoL. It is such a hindrance to the players, the viewers, and potential casters(I honestly would love to get into casting this game but have no idea where to start because LoLReplay is just not a good tool, and I don't exactly have connections to cast scrims or anything like that).
Double Edit: there's actually a thread for HTW, my bad, I usually get to this forum from my subscribed threads and often miss when new ones have started =p
EPT
