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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content. Thanks. Happy Gaming. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On March 16 2012 03:14 Shikyo wrote: What's with the super srsbsns stuff now all of a sudden o.O Its not good when one of the most consistently good posters and one of the most consistently prolific posters argue in a way that gets a little to heated. Dun look good, dun help anything, and all it does is make people have to pick sides when instead they should be thinking for themselves when examining each oppinion. | ||
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Gondlem
Australia642 Posts
On March 16 2012 02:58 Sandster wrote: Say you camp top and fail to get a kill. Their top lane loses cs, and you're about half a level to one level behind the enemy jungler. You also lose some gold. Say you camp top for a minute (which, as a laner, feels like an eternity) and finally manage to get a kill, and shove the lane into their tower. Not only is your top lane way stronger than theirs, but you also equalized on gold and experience with the other guy who's busy killing wraiths and wolves an extra time compared to you. It's very frustrating as the other jungler to see this happen. Say I'm Udyr and cleared my jungle, and saw Lee Sin top. Since he's really far away and failed his gank, I invade his jungle, take every small spawn, and go back and take all of mine. If Lee camped top and got even one gank off successfully he immediately is at least even with me in levels AND gold, if not ahead. It's still a risk though. In your last example, if you see the enemy jungler camping top and go take his jungle, ping repeatedly, type warnings in chat, and your top lane just hugs tower and gives up a bit of cs/exp but avoids dying in the process, your team comes out way ahead because their jungler just wasted a ton of time for (almost) no reward. This is obviously especially true if it's very early in the game, where a significant level gap between junglers can decide the first dragon or a teamfight over blue or whatever. | ||
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Schwopzi
Netherlands954 Posts
On March 16 2012 03:06 Alaric wrote: From an exterior point of view, and even though I'd tend to lean on Smash's side of the matter, you both aren't right (without necessarily being wrong). Sure, Smash is biaised (even more so because it irrates him) against the top camping, but you often tend to make extreme statements when you talk about something, ending up blowing things out of proportion. At least that's the feeling I get when I read you: "Sure, he's got a lot more experience, and on the matter of what he's talking about there's ton of stuff to learn from, but even I can see that he's exaggerating". I'm not saying that you do it on purpose, of course, or that it makes what you say garbage. Still, there's some pruning to do to be able to get the most of your posts, I believe. And it's a shame that with such insightful people in our subforum the way opinions tend to get polarized and contrasted to each other it kinda holds back progress on the discussed topics (or at least that's the impression under which I am). It can be great for us baddies or learners since we've got two really opposed opinions to take the best from, but in the long run it seems most of our discussions are more or less fruitless because we just state stuff and tell each other we're biaised.  I hope I didn't sound too arrogant or judging in that post. If it is, please accept my apologies, that wasn't intended. Well there has been SOME progress in the discussion, albeit you have to filter through the personal attacks to find them! What I can see we stand about here: Camping top level 2 is worth it 100% if you get a kill. With certain junglers you can zone their top lane and deny them exp/cs giving your top a advantage. This advantage doesn't have to be deciding but there are some champions that snowball really hard from a small advantage, allowing one champion to become a hypercarry while the other becomes useless if there's no further jungle influence. If the non camping jungler uses the opportunity to steal buffs he can procede to camp top for a smaller opportunity cost pre-buff respawn (assuming no kill was made early) | ||
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bmn
886 Posts
But I still suck at him. And I just don't see how to a) kill people and/or b) not die to people. He seems crazy squishy. Do people ever play Heimerdinger at higher ELOs, even just in solo queue? | ||
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Schwopzi
Netherlands954 Posts
On March 16 2012 03:17 Two_DoWn wrote: Its not good when one of the most consistently good posters and one of the most consistently prolific posters argue in a way that gets a little to heated. Dun look good, dun help anything, and all it does is make people have to pick sides when instead they should be thinking for themselves when examining each oppinion. If only people would all follow the age old debate principle; the person that resorts to a personal attack loses the debate by default. Pretty annoying when both sides start flinging shit though! | ||
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bmn
886 Posts
On March 16 2012 03:20 bmn wrote: So, despite the fact that I sucked at him in free week, I couldn't resist and bought Heimerdinger (after playing in a game where we pretty much got carried by one, crazy as that sounds). But I still suck at him. And I just don't see how to a) kill people and/or b) not die to people. He seems crazy squishy. Do people ever play Heimerdinger at higher ELOs, even just in solo queue? Also, on a somewhat jungle-related note, what do I do if the jungler just keeps camping mid? I played Morde vs LB, and I kept pushing her hard and denying her CS, she was mostly low health, but then their nocturne spent a large part of the laning phase camping either bush. It gave them a kill, but more importantly, I pretty much had to stay outside exp range for part of the laning phase or I'd die (morde escapes suck, and noct+lb have stun + fear). I was equal in CS but 2 levels behind LB when she hit 9, and I wasn't even safe under tower at that point (as long as nocturne was around). Is there anything I could've done better other than tower hugging and losing exp, given that my jungler never intervened? | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
On March 16 2012 03:20 bmn wrote: So, despite the fact that I sucked at him in free week, I couldn't resist and bought Heimerdinger (after playing in a game where we pretty much got carried by one, crazy as that sounds). But I still suck at him. And I just don't see how to a) kill people and/or b) not die to people. He seems crazy squishy. Do people ever play Heimerdinger at higher ELOs, even just in solo queue? I always feel he's fine except that his turrets just die so fucking fast, especially in lane enemy just uses 1 Q and turret is gone. | ||
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
Say Udyr vs Lee, I'm Udyr purple side. Wolves blue [I see Lee started red] wraiths red golems wraiths wolves. There's a good chance Lee tried to level 2/3 gank mid or bot and failed, though if he went mid I would have stopped jungling and headed there immediately. Normally after wolves I'd back, but I see Lee yet again flying out of the jungle at top lane, this time with double buff. My teammate survives, and I run over and jack their wraiths. I see Lee gank again, and I either gank mid/bot or take his golems and back. Lee at this point should take my golems and gank top a 3rd time. If he gets it off successfully, their top lane wins. If my top lane had to back at any point, Lee would take my golems and leave with minimal loss in levels/gold. This is how most people camp; it doesn't literally mean sit in the tri brush for a full minute breathing through your helmet. Now say I respond by running top instead of invading. By the time I get there, my top lane probably has no summoners or pots, or had to go back himself. Either way we can't fight 2v2, and I'm probably stuck there holding the wave at our turret while they go back and buy. Now, it's not RISKLESS. You are undeniably behind if you camp top and fail. But the thing is, the risk/reward ratio is such that, if you fail, you're not that far behind, but if you succeed, you are way way ahead. Again, make sure your buffs are down, or at least ward such that your mid/bot collapses if he tries to steal. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On March 16 2012 03:24 JackDino wrote: I always feel he's fine except that his turrets just die so fucking fast, especially in lane enemy just uses 1 Q and turret is gone. I think that the biggest problem with heimerdingdong is that his ultimate is worse than karma's | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
On March 16 2012 03:32 Shikyo wrote: I think that the biggest problem with heimerdingdong is that his ultimate is worse than karma's His ultimate is actually pretty good, you jsut need your turrets. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On March 16 2012 03:33 JackDino wrote: His ultimate is actually pretty good, you jsut need your turrets. I never see a situation to use it unless you're like, ganked and are trying to somehow survive with your 7 base armor or whatever (When the best use of your ultimate is its passive effect you know its not too good) | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On March 16 2012 03:20 bmn wrote: So, despite the fact that I sucked at him in free week, I couldn't resist and bought Heimerdinger (after playing in a game where we pretty much got carried by one, crazy as that sounds). But I still suck at him. And I just don't see how to a) kill people and/or b) not die to people. He seems crazy squishy. Do people ever play Heimerdinger at higher ELOs, even just in solo queue? Heimerdinger is extremely team coordination reliant. If your team doesn't abuse your turrets, Heimer is weak. Because of that, Heimer also is team composition reliant. He goes well with kiting champs, but a team with many melees doesn't fit him. I don't think Heimer's very squishy. He has sufficient range to stay away from most threats. Killing people... is mostly luck, heh. Sure, if someone dives into your turrets + ult and you Rocket+Grenade, he might die quickly. But if your enemies don't do that, you're mostly just poking and controlling zones. Heimer typically scores kills only when enemies overextend or during the cleanup of a won fight. Dan Dinh is still an amazing Heimerdinger I guess. He played him with great success at a tourney a couple of months ago. Aside from Dan though, he's very rare. He doesn't work well in solo queue and that's probably also a reason why few people are actually good with him. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
On March 16 2012 03:37 Shikyo wrote: I never see a situation to use it unless you're like, ganked and are trying to somehow survive with your 7 base armor or whatever (When the best use of your ultimate is its passive effect you know its not too good) Then you're doing it wrong, there are plenty situations to use his ult, ganks are the best situations, also it's stupidly good for assisting your carries with bruisers diving them. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On March 16 2012 03:23 bmn wrote: Also, on a somewhat jungle-related note, what do I do if the jungler just keeps camping mid? I played Morde vs LB, and I kept pushing her hard and denying her CS, she was mostly low health, but then their nocturne spent a large part of the laning phase camping either bush. It gave them a kill, but more importantly, I pretty much had to stay outside exp range or I'd die (morde escapes suck, and noct+lb have stun + fear). I was equal in CS but 2 levels behind LB when she hit 9, and I wasn't even safe under tower at that point. Is there anything I could've done better other than tower hugging and losing exp, given that my jungler never intervened? Mid camping is fairly easy to deal with. Let them zone you and farm at your tower when they push back or roam and kill their team if they're pulling the lane. Mid has too much map mobility and is too hard to pull for mid camping to be effective. If you're getting repeatedly ganked and killed by a strong burster in lane + a targeted stun from the jungle, just ward carefully so that you can anticipate the ganks. For top lane, I'm not going to get into a big discussion. I've played the camping jungler, the non-camping jungler, the assisted top and the lone top and all I'll say is that from what I've played in solo queue, the team that applies early pressure to top wins games unless their other 2 lanes win solidly on their own (or with jungler help, but early jungle gank success rates are much lower in other lanes) or the top played like a giant derp with his lead. The whole dynamic has turned me off of top lane and I think it's bullshit that what you guys are saying about a jungler being behind for putting so much pressure on a single lane doesn't seem to be as true as it should be (xp/gold losses for lane camping feel minimal). Top lane's pretty fun when you don't get camped, but the risk/reward is such that if you want to play top lane, you shouldn't be playing a character that promotes early aggression unless you know your jungler is also going to apply pressure top, and as such, the lane is incredibly boring and stagnant. | ||
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fishinguy
Russian Federation798 Posts
I was playing free week and god this guy is strong, just go into siege mode and unload everything without being harmed at all. I know he was played in some tournaments but I don't see him that much anymore, anyone know why? | ||
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bmn
886 Posts
On March 16 2012 03:41 Mogwai wrote: Mid camping is fairly easy to deal with. Let them zone you and farm at your tower when they push back or roam and kill their team if they're pulling the lane. Mid has too much map mobility and is too hard to pull for mid camping to be effective. If you're getting repeatedly ganked and killed by a strong burster in lane + a targeted stun from the jungle, just ward carefully so that you can anticipate the ganks. Well, the problem wasn't not dying, once I had wards; the problem was that I felt I should be able to do better -- I'd have had a huge CS lead (and a bit of an exp lead) without jungler intervention, and instead I ended up on equal CS and behind in experience. But you're right, I really should roam more, I just never got into the habit of doing so. I've lost several games (as top) purely to the fact that the opponent's mid kept roaming aggressively, it's something that at my low-ish ELO most top/bot lanes aren't prepared for. Incidentally, that's how that Heimerdinger that carried us did it -- he kept his lane pushed, then kept getting kills while roaming. Not that his ganks are anything to write home about, but a 2-man gank on top is so much stronger. (So I guess it was just our team coordination that won it...) Edit: Yeah, as Alaric also said, I should just use my ward vision to roam instead of standing dumbfounded at my tower until the next wave comes. Thanks guys. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On March 16 2012 03:23 bmn wrote: Also, on a somewhat jungle-related note, what do I do if the jungler just keeps camping mid? I played Morde vs LB, and I kept pushing her hard and denying her CS, she was mostly low health, but then their nocturne spent a large part of the laning phase camping either bush. It gave them a kill, but more importantly, I pretty much had to stay outside exp range for part of the laning phase or I'd die (morde escapes suck, and noct+lb have stun + fear). I was equal in CS but 2 levels behind LB when she hit 9, and I wasn't even safe under tower at that point (as long as nocturne was around). Is there anything I could've done better other than tower hugging and losing exp, given that my jungler never intervened? Ward accordingly, warn your jungler, and have him either counterjungle in such a way that you+him will be more ahead than LB+Noc, gank the shit out of the other lanes unhindered if Noc won't move, or prepare an ambush to 1v2 him before LB can react (well obviously if your jungler was Shyvana that's a tad more delicate). Basically, use the fact the you know his position while he doesn't know your own jungler's. In Morde's case, he isn't dependant on blue buff so it doesn't harm you as much as if you'd been, say, Swain. | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
On March 16 2012 03:50 fishinguy wrote: So what exactly happened to xerath? I was playing free week and god this guy is strong, just go into siege mode and unload everything without being harmed at all. I know he was played in some tournaments but I don't see him that much anymore, anyone know why? He is more boring than watching paint dry. | ||
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vasculaR
Malaysia791 Posts
My opinion is that I've played many games (not arranged ranked) that a lot of early objective fights break out whereby both top laner just sit on their lane full time. I like ganking mid/bot to give an edge for early-mid game objective duels. Hmm, but I also strongly believe that ganking from jungle isn't really heavily reliant jungler individual skill anyways. I find its more to do with Lane health/Lane positioning (basically player skill in lane) and Jungle hero choice. You do your thing in lane, let your jungler do this thing in the forest. Create the opportunity for your jungler to say hello. | ||
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