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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
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Contrary to what Smash might imply, camping does cost quite a bit.
If I camp top from minutes 2:15 to 4:15, I will be so far behind that I will not be able to gank any other lane for a much longer time. I will be underleveled and underfarmed for every dragon fight. My team WILL lose the midgame. My buffs will be gone.
And it doesnt even matter if top wins. It is literally the least useful lane in the game up until lategame. If you leave top to go get drag, you instantly let the top lane who was behind catch up. Not to mention that midgame teamfights tend to be a complete and utter shitshow. I dont care how farmed you are as a top lane, you have no garuntee that you are going to be able to carry that first dragon fight, espeically since the person who is supposed to secure dragon is going to have to be incredibly far away because of how weak they will be. There are already situations where you cannot take dragon simply because the jungle is not strong enough to tank it, or even if someone else could tank it, deal damage to it.
Which, as a result, leaves you overall in a much weaker postion in terms of map objectives for the rest of the game. And that doesnt even take into account how much more power the enemy jungle will have over all of your lanes. And the longer the game goes, the less the fact that you got shut down top actually matters.
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the fact a top will probably miss 5-6 cs minimum, based purely on the chance of a camping jungler means you should lose about 200 gold. thats 2 whole camps over the jungle, and then some. it costs the top more than it costs the jungler.
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Small camps are 50 gold tops. Which means to catch up, you need to clear your jungle and then some.
Plus there is the exp loss.
Top can recover a hell of a lot easier than a jungle can as well. One gank and that lane is instantly reversed, but your jungle will still be very behind.
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On March 16 2012 02:11 turdburgler wrote:
the fact a top will probably miss 5-6 cs minimum, based purely on the chance of a camping jungler means you should lose about 200 gold. thats 2 whole camps over the jungle, and then some. it costs the top more than it costs the jungler.
what the ..
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On March 16 2012 02:17 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:11 turdburgler wrote:
the fact a top will probably miss 5-6 cs minimum, based purely on the chance of a camping jungler means you should lose about 200 gold. thats 2 whole camps over the jungle, and then some. it costs the top more than it costs the jungler. what the ..
miscalculation but the point still stands. with the tiny amount of gold the jungle is actually worth, sitting in a bush can put your team ahead in gold, which is stupid.
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On March 16 2012 02:06 Two_DoWn wrote:
Also, I wish Smash wouldnt post about jungle camping top.
NEWSFLASH: IT COSTS THE JUNGLE A FUCK TON.
I dont know WHY he thinks that it doesnt, but it does. If I camp top from minutes 2:15 to 4:15, I will be so far behind that I will not be able to gank any other lane for a much longer time. I will be underleveled and underfarmed for every dragon fight. My team WILL lose the midgame. My buffs will be gone.
And it doesnt even matter if top wins. It is literally the least useful lane in the game up until lategame. If you leave top to go get drag, you instantly let the top lane who was behind catch up. Not to mention that midgame teamfights tend to be a complete and utter shitshow. I dont care how farmed you are as a top lane, you have no garuntee that you are going to be able to carry that first dragon fight, espeically since the person who is supposed to secure dragon is going to have to be incredibly far away because of how weak they will be. There are already situations where you cannot take dragon simply because the jungle is not strong enough to tank it, or even if someone else could tank it, deal damage to it.
Which, as a result, leaves you overall in a much weaker postion in terms of map objectives for the rest of the game. And that doesnt even take into account how much more power the enemy jungle will have over all of your lanes. And the longer the game goes, the less the fact that you got shut down top actually matters.
Smash, I have a lot of respect for you, but for fucks sakes, stop posting shit you KNOW to be utter bullshit simply because you play top and hate getting camped.
You also didn't mention that damage scales better than tankiness, so getting a gank for a bruiser at the cost of a carry will put you behind once team fights start.
Also only top side can camp top. Double golems are close to the lane, while blue buff is a hell of a long way, and blue isn't up for more than 1 minute out of every 6, and wolves are even further away. By camping top, you either lose a little, or you lose a lot (depending on how bad the other jungler is).
When you know these things, it's funny that people complain about TOO ganking for regi but not TRM. It's probably because TOO is smarter than his critics.
On March 16 2012 02:21 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:17 Shikyo wrote:On March 16 2012 02:11 turdburgler wrote:
the fact a top will probably miss 5-6 cs minimum, based purely on the chance of a camping jungler means you should lose about 200 gold. thats 2 whole camps over the jungle, and then some. it costs the top more than it costs the jungler. what the .. miscalculation but the point still stands. with the tiny amount of gold the jungle is actually worth, sitting in a bush can put your team ahead in gold, which is stupid.
There is no point in ganking a losing lane. He can still get a kill and walk away, he could get two kills depending on how fed, or his jungler could show up and they are at a huge advantage. If it hasn't been said, losing a lane when no one has ganked you is no ones fault but your own, and not the junglers fucking problem. If someone is camping top, the other jungler can camp bottom, and come out ahead because there are two possible kills, and a dragon when you're bottom.
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On March 16 2012 02:21 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:17 Shikyo wrote:On March 16 2012 02:11 turdburgler wrote:
the fact a top will probably miss 5-6 cs minimum, based purely on the chance of a camping jungler means you should lose about 200 gold. thats 2 whole camps over the jungle, and then some. it costs the top more than it costs the jungler. what the .. miscalculation but the point still stands. with the tiny amount of gold the jungle is actually worth, sitting in a bush can put your team ahead in gold, which is stupid.
Tiny amount of gold? Do you know what exp is?
Do you know who's ahead, lvl 5 top and lvl 5 jungler vs lvl 5 top and lvl 2 jungler? Do you know the camper will probably also lose his jungle and need to clear the small monsters making it so that he can't farm properly in forever? Do you know he won't win a single 1v1 and for the rest of the game will get hardcore outjungled? Did you know that a 10 minion disadvantage(but no exp disadvantage) isn't going to hinder the other toplaner for like, contesting the 7:10 blue but the jungler being lvl 3 while other jungler is lvl 6 definitely is going to and this means you will not be getting any buffs? Etc.
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If you're blue side just camp top and take enemy golems, if the enemy jungler comes it'll be 2v1.5 anyways if you're camping right.
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On March 16 2012 02:21 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:17 Shikyo wrote:On March 16 2012 02:11 turdburgler wrote:
the fact a top will probably miss 5-6 cs minimum, based purely on the chance of a camping jungler means you should lose about 200 gold. thats 2 whole camps over the jungle, and then some. it costs the top more than it costs the jungler. what the .. miscalculation but the point still stands. with the tiny amount of gold the jungle is actually worth, sitting in a bush can put your team ahead in gold, which is stupid.
See, now you are trying to make the OPPOSITE point. Which is also wrong.
Because the new jungle is worth little bits of gold and exp but is overal faster to clear, the deciding factor becomes TIME. If you can get 2 clears off in the time someone else got 1, not only are you ahead in gold and exp, but you are also ahead from the fact that your camps are going to continue to respawn at a fast rate. Which means that if you have an exp and gold lead, you are going to continue to clear faster and faster, and leave the enemy jungle far behind.
And again, it is much easier to help a top lane recover than it is to make a jungle recover. If I gank for my top and get a kill, that gives, at the very least, over 100 gold. Which is the creeps that they lost. PLUS the time that they have to free farm. PLUS the fact that not only is top eaqualized, but I am now MUCH farther ahead of their jungle.
Even without a jungle gank, a top lane will continue to get levels and farm. Maybe it isnt the ideal ammount of farm, but it will be enough to keep them ahead of the enemy jungle, who is going to be well behind. As long as the net effect is that your team has more farm than the enemy team, you win that trade.
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On March 16 2012 02:06 Two_DoWn wrote:
Also, I wish Smash wouldnt post about jungle camping top.
NEWSFLASH: IT COSTS THE JUNGLE A FUCK TON.
I dont know WHY he thinks that it doesnt, but it does. If I camp top from minutes 2:15 to 4:15, I will be so far behind that I will not be able to gank any other lane for a much longer time. I will be underleveled and underfarmed for every dragon fight. My team WILL lose the midgame. My buffs will be gone.
And it doesnt even matter if top wins. It is literally the least useful lane in the game up until lategame. If you leave top to go get drag, you instantly let the top lane who was behind catch up. Not to mention that midgame teamfights tend to be a complete and utter shitshow. I dont care how farmed you are as a top lane, you have no garuntee that you are going to be able to carry that first dragon fight, espeically since the person who is supposed to secure dragon is going to have to be incredibly far away because of how weak they will be. There are already situations where you cannot take dragon simply because the jungle is not strong enough to tank it, or even if someone else could tank it, deal damage to it.
Which, as a result, leaves you overall in a much weaker postion in terms of map objectives for the rest of the game. And that doesnt even take into account how much more power the enemy jungle will have over all of your lanes. And the longer the game goes, the less the fact that you got shut down top actually matters.
Smash, I have a lot of respect for you, but for fucks sakes, stop posting shit you KNOW to be utter bullshit simply because you play top and hate getting camped.
I've deleted a number of responses about this, so how bout this.
I will stop posting anything about jungle camping top lane in GD if you stop posting like you have even the slightest idea about what happens to a top lane who got camped and then doesn't get ganks later, because honestly when I read this:
On March 16 2012 02:27 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:21 turdburgler wrote:On March 16 2012 02:17 Shikyo wrote:On March 16 2012 02:11 turdburgler wrote:
the fact a top will probably miss 5-6 cs minimum, based purely on the chance of a camping jungler means you should lose about 200 gold. thats 2 whole camps over the jungle, and then some. it costs the top more than it costs the jungler. what the .. miscalculation but the point still stands. with the tiny amount of gold the jungle is actually worth, sitting in a bush can put your team ahead in gold, which is stupid. Even without a jungle gank, a top lane will continue to get levels and farm. Maybe it isnt the ideal ammount of farm, but it will be enough to keep them ahead of the enemy jungle, who is going to be well behind.
It borderline gives me an anuerism with how utterly retarded and untrue it is. Have you ever seen what happens to a top lane on my stream when I have a jungler camp for me early and give me a lead on Wukong?
So we have a deal or what?
P.S. I believe what I write. Dunno why you think I'd spout bullshit and troll the community when I've put so fucking much time into trying to help TL get better. My experiences are solo queue based and biased towards certain champs, sure, but that's true of everyone's perspective. For instance, you'd realize how bullshit lane camping can be if you actually spent some time jungling Pantheon, Xin or WW instead of Udyr. The jungler you're playing greatly influences the strategy's effectiveness, as Udyr/Shyvanna/Skarner/Mundo have a lot to lose based on how early they hit their critical mass to jungle clearing speed, but the fact that there are viable junglers who don't even lose 1:00, and stand to even gain time on their route to 6 from camping a lane is retarded IMO. Last post on lane camping from me in GD ever.
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On March 16 2012 02:23 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:21 turdburgler wrote:On March 16 2012 02:17 Shikyo wrote:On March 16 2012 02:11 turdburgler wrote:
the fact a top will probably miss 5-6 cs minimum, based purely on the chance of a camping jungler means you should lose about 200 gold. thats 2 whole camps over the jungle, and then some. it costs the top more than it costs the jungler. what the .. miscalculation but the point still stands. with the tiny amount of gold the jungle is actually worth, sitting in a bush can put your team ahead in gold, which is stupid. Tiny amount of gold? Do you know what exp is? Do you know who's ahead, lvl 5 top and lvl 5 jungler vs lvl 5 top and lvl 2 jungler? Do you know the camper will probably also lose his jungle and need to clear the small monsters making it so that he can't farm properly in forever? Do you know he won't win a single 1v1 and for the rest of the game will get hardcore outjungled? Did you know that a 10 minion disadvantage(but no exp disadvantage) isn't going to hinder the other toplaner for like, contesting the 7:10 blue but the jungler being lvl 3 while other jungler is lvl 6 definitely is going to and this means you will not be getting any buffs? Etc.
see. its like you havent been reading the discussion from the last 2 pages. and then you take my point to absurdity and expect what you say to carry weight. a lot of people, including what i said last page, see the amount of xp you can get from small jungle camps a problem. you just simply dont lose enough when camping top
then you say lvl5 vs lvl2. no one said sit in a bush for 3 minutes. at worst, due to the way the current jungle works, because you can pick up the 2 huge sources of xp so fast, then its just circling for the tiny pickings of the other camps, even with a long stay at top, you will be about lvl 4 when he is level 5. but because of your camping, your top lane is probably ahead in xp or gold than their top. its a trade off. but the real kicker is, which no one seemed to actually read in my first post about camping top. is because of the possibility of camping top, caused by the massive xp from 2 monsters compared to the rest, 1 side of top, and to a lesser extent, 1 side of bottom, have to play more carefully, even if you arent camping. the fact you might be, and realistically could be, is a huge problem. so you can get ahead without even sitting in said bush.
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In regards to camping top I'm with Smash on this one. How viable it can be to camp top is like 90% based on what kind of jungler you play. If you play a farmy, fast clearing jungler like Udyr/Shyvana, who are really popular especially with the top teams atm, camping top is absolutely the worst thing you can do simply because the opportunity cost isn't there. But if you play a gank/support oriented jungler like Pantheon or Maokai camping a lane is absolutely worth it. Especially in the case of junglers like Pantheon who can't clear all that fast and would fall behind when just afk-farming the jungle anyways.
With regards to camping lanes it's not black and white.
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I do camp top on occasion. It is an effective strategy. The problem is that the way that you post about it you make it seem as though there is no cost and no counter. THAT is the issue I have. And people respect your oppinion as a good player who typically doesnt let bias slip into his posts, or at least acgknowledges when it does. This is the one topic which you dont do that, so now I have to spend time trying to convince people like Turdburgler that camping top might actually effect the way the jungler has to play out the rest of the game.
And ya, against some solo tops, getting an early lead will lead to a huge advantage and win you the game. But then again, there are plenty of times it can backfire quite badly. And top is not the only lane in the game. I KNOW you have had plenty of games where you have crushed your top and still ended up losing.
Im sorry I insinuated you were BSing. You are right, you post better than that. Its why I get frustrated when I see you post stuff that has a definite bias withou acknowledging that bias.
I will admit, I am no better. But the truth in this circumstance is somewhere inbetween: it is a strong strategy, but not always the right one, and certainly not worth trying to butcher the entire jungle over.
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Well I kind of would assume if the other jungler notices what you're doing he's going to clear your jungle, and assuming you just did one big camp and the big camp(standard procedure if you will gank) you wont level up from killing 3 times small monster that he leaves in your jungle. I'm assuming 2 minutes of camping not 3.
Also how is the possibility of top getting ganked somehow so different between the teams? Like let's say the bottom team has jarvan and top team lee sin, both have very real danger of toplane ganking so then it's a draw right? But it doesn't actually go like that, normally it's very possible to live a lvl 2 gank as long as you know the timing and also don't take unnecessary risks.
I still think it's pretty much impossible to deny EXP unless you somehow make your wave push while getting camped in which case you really need to improvise because you're quite screwed
(Note it's somewhat axaggerated but there's a real risk of getting hugely counterfucked if you camp top)
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Say you camp top and fail to get a kill. Their top lane loses cs, and you're about half a level to one level behind the enemy jungler. You also lose some gold.
Say you camp top for a minute (which, as a laner, feels like an eternity) and finally manage to get a kill, and shove the lane into their tower. Not only is your top lane way stronger than theirs, but you also equalized on gold and experience with the other guy who's busy killing wraiths and wolves an extra time compared to you.
It's very frustrating as the other jungler to see this happen. Say I'm Udyr and cleared my jungle, and saw Lee Sin top. Since he's really far away and failed his gank, I invade his jungle, take every small spawn, and go back and take all of mine. If Lee camped top and got even one gank off successfully he immediately is at least even with me in levels AND gold, if not ahead.
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i think we need a change of subject before someone gets really angry ;D
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From an exterior point of view, and even though I'd tend to lean on Smash's side of the matter, you both aren't right (without necessarily being wrong).
Sure, Smash is biaised (even more so because it irrates him) against the top camping, but you often tend to make extreme statements when you talk about something, ending up blowing things out of proportion. At least that's the feeling I get when I read you: "Sure, he's got a lot more experience, and on the matter of what he's talking about there's ton of stuff to learn from, but even I can see that he's exaggerating".
I'm not saying that you do it on purpose, of course, or that it makes what you say garbage. Still, there's some pruning to do to be able to get the most of your posts, I believe. And it's a shame that with such insightful people in our subforum the way opinions tend to get polarized and contrasted to each other it kinda holds back progress on the discussed topics (or at least that's the impression under which I am). It can be great for us baddies or learners since we've got two really opposed opinions to take the best from, but in the long run it seems most of our discussions are more or less fruitless because we just state stuff and tell each other we're biaised. 
I hope I didn't sound too arrogant or judging in that post. If it is, please accept my apologies, that wasn't intended.
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I still don't think he'd be even with you with just a kill... Assuming you're something like Shyvana and the enemy camps for a minute then gets a kill, you should be lvl 4 and killing his jungle just as he finished killing the enemy. He will perhaps hit lvl 3 from the kill but might not, and you get all the camps of his... The enemy toplane is going to be way ahead in that case, yes, but..
How can it even happen?
After a minute of camping you somehow die? I don't see how that could happen, the wave should be at your turret and you should be lasthitting in safety while also likely having at least a flash. I think you basically need to dive to get a kill, but even so the chance for a trade is very real. Even if it doesn't happen I think there's such a small possibility for dying without a trade I would just dismiss it in the same way I don't consider people dying in lane 1v1
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Naw, its completely fair. I am the first to admit that I tend to go way to far, both in terms of my oppinions and the way that I express them. Hence why so often I post, then have to go back and re edit to tone it down.
But I appologized to Smash, and hopefully we can have a good discussion moving forward.
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What's with the super srsbsns stuff now all of a sudden o.O
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EPT
